Retribution Downtimes and Talents

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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Remember guys, we are holy warriors of the light... and we all know how slow light is.

Our speed problems fit our theme, amiright?
06/12/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Zaim
06/12/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Beraht


Did you just ask for Stampeding Roar ?


I like to think of it as Aspect of the Pack. ;)


Please god no. With the Daze effect included and Aspect of the Noob label ?

06/12/2018 07:33 AMPosted by Zaim
a Crusading Steed


Well we do have a Steed.

There are many ways to actually fix it (3 seconds for 60 seconds ? Ridiculous). Those ways already exist in the many talents made to modify it :

- Knight Templar
- Cavalier
- Steed of Glory

I for one think Paladins would do well with a somewhat better baseline Steed (there was absolutely NO justification to lower its cooldown) of 45 second cooldown, 3 sec duration, and a Steed of Glory talent to replace Cavalier, that reduces the duration increase (5 seconds total instead of 7), removes the knockback (it never quited worked properly anyhow, huge kludge) and gives it the Knight Templar cooldown reduction (maybe 15 seconds instead of half). Keep the snare removal of Steed of Glory.

That would give us baseline the Legion 3/45, and talented could be 5/30, with Snare removal. The downside would be the "hit your head on low branches" you'd expect, meaning it wouldn't be overpowered at all.

06/12/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Tenacius
Remember guys, we are holy warriors of the light... and we all know how slow light is.

Our speed problems fit our theme, amiright?


No need to even go there. We're "Mounted Knights", hence the "Steed" for mobility.

Have you ever seen a Mounted Cavalry charge that was slow ?

I guess we could ask for Holy Grip.
06/12/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Zaim

As for Freedom, yeah 90% of the time it is casted on the paladin, because it has to be. I wish it wasn't and if our gap closer worked without it, it'd be nice to open it up to the team again.
In the first couple of seasons of Legion I did a fair bit of 2v2 with a Monk. We found that almost all my Freedoms and the Monk's Tiger's Lusts were going to me, just to let me move. It wasn't a good feeling, and nor was it much fun.
My thought's after playing 120,

So after testing out some ret inside of Beta at 120, I feel like DS needs some kind of buff, with 3+ mobs on me, they drop faster If i just focus them down single target with TV. Either needs a health boost to it's damage or a secondary effect to increase its damage based on the amount of enemies.

I tried pairing it with DJ, but then I ended up missing my Wake of Ashes and my generation dropped dramatically for any substantial burst.

Consecration is just weak. not worth it.

Those are my thoughts on 120 off the top of my head.
Unbound Freedom doesn't work well as a PvP talent due to dispels but would be a godsend in PvE. I think it should replace Cavalier.

Then buff Steed to dispel (but not provide any lingering immunity to) all movement impairing effects. Our gap-closer has a 1 min CD. Doesn't it deserve some self-sufficiency?
I just want a faster paced rotation mostly, that and the "heroic leap" style move we were originally gonna get would be a nice bonus :)
Divine judgement got buffed to 20% per stack now. This talent is going to be very problematic in any type of pvp match that's not a very short duration. As it stands now, at a 41k hp pool at lvl 111, my judgement at full stack with wings hit for about 16k damage. Since wings give a crit bonus as well, it's a very possible likelihood that the attack could crit. A single attack for 32k HP is too high, even if you're gimping your damage for a bit to do so, because it enters into 1-2 shot territory. You can see the stacks on the pally, but unless you can stop him from using a spender for about 12 secs straight you can't get rid of them.

I can't see an effective way to keep a talent that lets one of your abilities do 300% extra damage (on an attack that isn't reduced by armor) without completely gimping the ability the talent is based off of, because the possibility of a crit during wings pumps up the damage of the ability so much. Ret's in pvp can just bide their time to build up stacks (assuming there's a healer about), than wings>judge burst their target down since its so overwhelming.
Heaven forbid too if that ret pally grabs zerking, has a saltwater pot, or you have a flag carrier debuff. That ret pally is going to one shot you, your dog, and take out your car while he's at it. No one is ever happy being on the receiving end of an attack like that, and gimping your combat to prepare for a one shot isn't fun gameplay either.
The one thing I'm finding about ret mobility is that NPCs you're supposed to follow in a lot of quests run faster than you can. That just feels really bad. I'm not saying we need to be able to move like a monk, but our baseline movement should be enough to keep up with quest NPCs.

Also give us a glyph so that way we can opt out of the steed animation. Speed of Light works, and its animation is just as big a tell as Steed's.
06/09/2018 12:20 AMPosted by Rokhnar
I wish they woul give Seraphim to Ret as well, the spell looks cool.
I want this so bad! It was a awesome talent back in WOD.
06/12/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Vaerume
Divine judgement got buffed to 20% per stack now. This talent is going to be very problematic in any type of pvp match that's not a very short duration. As it stands now, at a 41k hp pool at lvl 111, my judgement at full stack with wings hit for about 16k damage. Since wings give a crit bonus as well, it's a very possible likelihood that the attack could crit. A single attack for 32k HP is too high, even if you're gimping your damage for a bit to do so, because it enters into 1-2 shot territory. You can see the stacks on the pally, but unless you can stop him from using a spender for about 12 secs straight you can't get rid of them.

I can't see an effective way to keep a talent that lets one of your abilities do 300% extra damage (on an attack that isn't reduced by armor) without completely gimping the ability the talent is based off of, because the possibility of a crit during wings pumps up the damage of the ability so much. Ret's in pvp can just bide their time to build up stacks (assuming there's a healer about), than wings>judge burst their target down since its so overwhelming.
I'm concerned about this too, especially as Judgement is ranged.

I see Selfless Healer got the cast time reduction nerfed. It'll now take four Judgements to bring FoL down to instant, which with 15% Haste is ~30s from the time to fire the 1st Judgement off. I just can't see this talent being worth taking unless you're determined not to spend Holy Power on healing. For PvP you're probably better off taking Seraphim's Blessing and WoG. For PvE, JV or WoG.
Sanctified Wrath should be back as a talent. At least a revamped version of It since I know we'd get extra wings duration with Azerite gear.

While I still don't (and never will) like the GCD change on Avenging Wrath, I swallow it up since it's a global change affecting all classes, so we have to deal with it. However, speccing Hammer of Wrath without the option to have it's coolwdown halved plus AW being on the GCD makes it super lackluster and not worth it.

I know we will use it anyway whether sims provide it's the best option or not, yet, It can't help but feel awful and without any spark, just another mundane button to press during wings, when It was historically what made you feel rampaging during Avenging Wrath.

It's diffucult to make it being HoW now a talent, but I would try HoW baseline instead of Blade of Wrath is it is in this build and make room to Sanctified wrath to be back on the talent tree. Just empowering the Hammer of Wrath. Or something that makes the wings feel like they've ever felt.
06/13/2018 01:22 AMPosted by Bambiet
At least a revamped version of It since I know we'd get extra wings duration with Azerite gear.


The Avenging Wrath Azerite trait seems to be increased Mastery during Avenging Wrath actually. Not a duration increase or cooldown reduction. Blizzard is learning.

06/13/2018 01:22 AMPosted by Bambiet
when It was historically what made you feel rampaging during Avenging Wrath.


Well no, to be fair, that was Sanctified Wrath overshadowing Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger. It had nothing to do with Hammer of Wrath itself.

Hammer of Wrath is literally unchanged besides a few number tweaks at this point.
06/13/2018 12:59 AMPosted by Sharrow
I see Selfless Healer got the cast time reduction nerfed. It'll now take four Judgements to bring FoL down to instant, which with 15% Haste is ~30s from the time to fire the 1st Judgement off.
Selfless Healer stacks are now generated through HoPo Spenders rather than Judgment uses.

06/12/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Vaerume
Divine judgement got buffed to 20% per stack now. This talent is going to be very problematic in any type of pvp match that's not a very short duration. As it stands now, at a 41k hp pool at lvl 111, my judgement at full stack with wings hit for about 16k damage
I wouldn't worry too much about this being an issue. Once you start hitting level 114-116, your character's stats will diminish like crazy, with the exception of the primary stats, which continue going up. Also, you may still have the 2 set tier 21, assuming you copied your character over. That 40% Judgment damage is definitely going to exaggerate it even more.

Speaking of Talents though, the Art of War change is pretty neat, and the revamped Blade of Wrath talent makes Blade of Justice reset almost every other GCD. It's pretty nutty.
06/13/2018 01:51 AMPosted by Beraht
06/13/2018 01:22 AMPosted by Bambiet
At least a revamped version of It since I know we'd get extra wings duration with Azerite gear.


The Avenging Wrath Azerite trait seems to be increased Mastery during Avenging Wrath actually. Not a duration increase or cooldown reduction. Blizzard is learning.

06/13/2018 01:22 AMPosted by Bambiet
when It was historically what made you feel rampaging during Avenging Wrath.


Well no, to be fair, that was Sanctified Wrath overshadowing Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger. It had nothing to do with Hammer of Wrath itself.

Hammer of Wrath is literally unchanged besides a few number tweaks at this point.


Since wrath we had the option to half HoW cooldown with talents. Sanctify wrath wasn't always the to go option. In HFC it overshadowed Holy Avenger and DP because of the tier set.

Either be the cooldown reset, the extra crit chance, the cooldown reduction, HoW always had some way to be empowered to be a proper excecute. BfA iteration feels bland, plus, being a talent, It won't have an azerite gear perk.

Sad to hear about the Avenging wrath trait, I will miss the 30 seconds wings.

EDIT: After playing and questing for a couple of hours, Art of War (might be bugged) does NOT proc nearly as much as Blade of Wrath did. It feels like you have to spec the new Blade of Wrath talent to keep the same flow of procs as before, therefore Blade of Wrath becoming "baseline" is not true. Art of War is a very rare proc which does not help to speed up the pace at all. I hope its rppm is bugged and will be fixed.
I tested with/without the set bonus. The 32k is without it. With the set bonus I can straight one shot another player because it was hitting in the mid 40's.
The initial description of the Blade of Wrath change was a little misleading, but the result is technically fine. Before the patch, BoW was 4 RPPM, and picking Blade of Wrath now will still net you 4 RPPM. Art of War is baseline and is 2 RPPM, picking BoW doubles that to 4 RPPM.

In other words, picking Blade of Wrath still grants you the same result, but NOT picking Blade of Wrath is now less punishing than it was originally.

Edit: in practice you'll likely see quite a bit more than that as I believe RPPM is modified by haste, and haste is still good for Ret currently. I ran some tests last night and was averaging 6.5 PPM with 12% Haste + Inquisition + 1 piece of Relentless Inquisitor Azerite + 1 piece of Sieze the Moment Azerite + the Rezan's Eye haste trinket (39% haste at most).
Reintroduce pursuit of justice and long arm of the law and have them replace divine intervention and eye for an eye.
I posted this in the Paladin forums, but this is a great thread, so here goes!

Why don't they make Consecration an aura like Paladins had in D2? This would make it more mobile for M+ scenarios, add huge Paladin flavor, and... be awesome! It'd be a strong contender for WoA, which would still be nice for burst and insta 5HoPo. But with M+ in mind, having a constant aura up that obviously wouldn't be massive, but in melee range, would keep us somewhere in the middle of the whole DPS race that is M+.

Just a thought! Below is a reference for those who miss baller auras.

http://statis.gamen.vn/images/upload/2015/09/23/36_xUT2IewKUd_screenshot003.jpg?w=680

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