Revert 1.11 Shield Slam

Classic Discussion
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06/25/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Harland
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Was just thinking about that today, because I was reading another forum where some one was crying over the same situation, and I was kinda thinking the same thing..

As you got further into the raids I remember the tanks did take more damage, in turn rage was never a problem at all.. I cant ever remember a time when our tanks were starved for rage on typical fights.

So I am calling BS on the "armor is a nerf" stance.. I get the impression that some people are desperate to hold onto Easy mode 1.11 tanking so much so because they lack the confidence to do it the old way.

Maybe the solution for these people lacking the confidence is to improve on their game play and get their fellow raiders to actually manage their threat, and gear accordingly?

The more of this forum I read, the more I realize that many of these people have never played anything but 1.12, and while its awesome they want Classic, its unfortunate because they have no idea what they're missing.


Thats rich coming from a alt account troll who cant get his story straight on what he did in vanilla, also the fact that you cannot understand the concept of scaling shows you really shouldn't be talking.

When you look at scaling you hold as many variables constant as you can. You dont compare a t2 tank in BWL to a t1 tank in MC you compare both in BWL or in MC so that incoming damage is held constant. When you do that you see that as you get more mitigation you generate less rage from dmg and slightly more rage from auto attacks. This means you have less overall rage which means less heroic strikes and more auto attacks which is a much bigger threat loss than the extra dmg you get from your weapon swings. Hence threat scales inversely with gear which is why you saw raid tanks take gear off if they went to help tank dungeons.


Are you coming from a private server point of view or actual Vanilla? I wasn't a tank, but that's the first I've heard of anyone doing it in Vanilla.

I remember there being discussions on private server forums about how accurate rage and threat were.
06/25/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Xanthak
Are you coming from a private server point of view or actual Vanilla? I wasn't a tank, but that's the first I've heard of anyone doing it in Vanilla.

I remember there being discussions on private server forums about how accurate rage and threat were.


Xanthak, he did not even understand what I was talking about and then responded with out comprehension.

I was talking about the scaling of boss damage getting greater as you do harder content, making armor reduction becomes more important, in turn still providing you more rage to use more abilities.

So instead of coming up with a good argument he just said I don't have my story straight, as some sort of feeble personal attack.

I have a fairly good concept of how much damage a main tank takes playing a holy paladin; When healing you often have the MT targeted you can see where their rage bar is (pre focus frames), and I often watched what they were doing so that I knew what would be a good place to be to simply avoid damage while being in line, and range. It was also something I found interesting because it taught me a lot about the fights and how to heal better because you can sorta get a feel for what the boss is doing, and what's about to happen. I guess you just kinda get a 6th sense for it. Helped a lot in PVP, but that was a different skill set; PVP healing is 100X more fun.

Eh, it is whatever, the guy has yet to make a real argument other than "Nu-uh"
I feel like Harland already said the best solution. Just need to nerf shield slam outside of naxx then when you enter naxx it gets buffed to the 1.12 version. Seems like an easy fix.
06/25/2018 07:46 PMPosted by Rathir
I feel like Harland already said the best solution. Just need to nerf shield slam outside of naxx then when you enter naxx it gets buffed to the 1.12 version. Seems like an easy fix.


Would totally work too because it allows every instance and raid to play as intended. Could do the same with debuff slots too; default to 8, and when you zone into the correct content its increased if needed.

Now the game plays a lot closer to its original intended way, even if its not quite down to the gnats rear exact..
OG Shield slam or bust!
Rofl, you people are hilarious.

They're giving you vanilla, and all of a sudden you're pouting about the version of vanilla. Last time I checked, 1.12 was still Vanilla.

Funny to see all of the #nochange people all of a sudden change their tune.

Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what version they choose, a lot of people are going to be butthurt regardless.
06/29/2018 07:33 PMPosted by Renim
Rofl, you people are hilarious.

They're giving you vanilla, and all of a sudden you're pouting about the version of vanilla. Last time I checked, 1.12 was still Vanilla.

Funny to see all of the #nochange people all of a sudden change their tune.

Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what version they choose, a lot of people are going to be butthurt regardless.


Ill bite,

I will be playing regardless of the versions of things they provide to the game, but if you had payed attention to the things blizzard has said then you would know things like 1.10 and earlier shield slam IS an option..

Why do I figure this is true? That's a great question.

Consider that they were talking in their early interviews about content and such; asking us what versions of instances we thought were best.. Example 10 vs 5 man Scholomance.

That's the kind's of stuff they used as an example, and if they're going there, then that indicates that its not just a raw unkempt 1.12.

No changes has always been 100% about keeping it inside the confines of 1.1.0 to 1.12.2 regarding content and components, and so far I have not deviated from that framework.

You're just "reacting" like you are because you're trying to either push and agenda, troll, or you never payed attention to our message.

Either way, asking for the early version of Shield slam still 100% falls inside the confines of original Vanilla, and is indeed something that we can ask to retain over the late version that breaks the game.
06/29/2018 07:49 PMPosted by Harland
06/29/2018 07:33 PMPosted by Renim
Rofl, you people are hilarious.

They're giving you vanilla, and all of a sudden you're pouting about the version of vanilla. Last time I checked, 1.12 was still Vanilla.

Funny to see all of the #nochange people all of a sudden change their tune.

Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what version they choose, a lot of people are going to be butthurt regardless.


Ill bite,

I will be playing regardless of the versions of things they provide to the game, but if you had payed attention to the things blizzard has said then you would know things like 1.10 and earlier shield slam IS an option..

Why do I figure this is true? That's a great question.

Consider that they were talking in their early interviews about content and such; asking us what versions of instances we thought were best.. Example 10 vs 5 man Scholomance.

That's the kind's of stuff they used as an example, and if they're going there, then that indicates that its not just a raw unkempt 1.12.

No changes has always been 100% about keeping it inside the confines of 1.1.0 to 1.12.2 regarding content and components, and so far I have not deviated from that framework.

You're just "reacting" like you are because you're trying to either push and agenda, troll, or you never payed attention to our message.

Either way, asking for the early version of Shield slam still 100% falls inside the confines of original Vanilla, and is indeed something that we can ask to retain over the late version that breaks the game.


Problem was that "no changes", even though it was an effective mantra, meant many things to different people. But some people took it literally.
It ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Plus you Harland and Xanthak don’t know how tanking works and all unintended consequences your change will bring to class composition and raids.
07/04/2018 11:52 AMPosted by Rallea
It ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Plus you Harland and Xanthak don’t know how tanking works and all unintended consequences your change will bring to class composition and raids.


Ironic coming from you, considering you never raided anything in Vanilla. You didn't even set foot inside molten core till level 100.
im against this.

1) it directly nerfs raid wide dps and double nerfs fury dps in paticular.

2) just cause someone wants their epeen to be big enough to beat people with it over the head, doesnt mean we should make things harder to satisfy them.

3) as little changes as possible. i dont want class rebalancing, raid rebalancing or itemization rebalancing.

4) without gear rage intake and generation is very fast and works well. with gear it scales inversely. you take less damage thus you put out less threat and you nerf raid dps even further. the shield slam being 1.12 version will allow a tank to keep threat and boost raid dps so people arent sitting on their thumbs being bored to death waiting on their threat to go down on omen enough to be able to dps again.

all in all i think this would be a bad change.
07/04/2018 02:22 PMPosted by Xecks
im against this.

1) it directly nerfs raid wide dps and double nerfs fury dps in paticular.

2) just cause someone wants their epeen to be big enough to beat people with it over the head, doesnt mean we should make things harder to satisfy them.

3) as little changes as possible. i dont want class rebalancing, raid rebalancing or itemization rebalancing.

4) without gear rage intake and generation is very fast and works well. with gear it scales inversely. you take less damage thus you put out less threat and you nerf raid dps even further. the shield slam being 1.12 version will allow a tank to keep threat and boost raid dps so people arent sitting on their thumbs being bored to death waiting on their threat to go down on omen enough to be able to dps again.

all in all i think this would be a bad change.


I know you feel that way, but it's not a change, it's going back to what 95% of the game used as it's raid boss tuning parameter.

I have crunched the numbers, and no matter what you do outside of keeping OG shield slam the original raids before Naxx are impossible to tune correctly because they're designed different than Naxx.

Molten Core, Ony, BWL, ZG, AQ20, AQ40, and all of the dungeons are designed for threat management and threat limited PvE.

Threat management and threat limited PvE is the game as it was designed before 1.11, and that's why 1.11 shield slam must be reversed.

For Naxx, if it's impossible with out the shield slam change, they can add a ICC like aura to the raid that gives warriors the upgrade while inside.

I know you feel like reversing it will make for a boring time, but that's not true be because each boss pre-naxx takes a lot longer as a result, this changes the meta completely because now you can't just stack tons of +damage or healing, you need survivability stats that keep you from going OOM on the healing side, and as a result classes literally cannot do as much damage because of how they need to gear.

Reversing 1.11 shield slam is key to a true authentic vanilla quality experience.

Shield slam looks like something that is small and makes things more fun, but it doesn't; it only trivialized the original content.
naxx would be impossible without 1.11 shield slam.
07/04/2018 02:22 PMPosted by Xecks
im against this.

1) it directly nerfs raid wide dps and double nerfs fury dps in paticular.

2) just cause someone wants their epeen to be big enough to beat people with it over the head, doesnt mean we should make things harder to satisfy them.

3) as little changes as possible. i dont want class rebalancing, raid rebalancing or itemization rebalancing.

4) without gear rage intake and generation is very fast and works well. with gear it scales inversely. you take less damage thus you put out less threat and you nerf raid dps even further. the shield slam being 1.12 version will allow a tank to keep threat and boost raid dps so people arent sitting on their thumbs being bored to death waiting on their threat to go down on omen enough to be able to dps again.

all in all i think this would be a bad change.


1. This is part of the point. Fury in particular scales completely out of control with higher tier raid gear. The Shield Slam change also shifted the meta away from personal skill of managing your threat to just playing whatever class has the highest theoretical peak DPS.

This change would hurt Fury, but basically help every other hybrid DPS that isn't capped on threat but can't put out numbers like a Rogue or Ignite Mage.

2. People can still have their *%#!*@%! measuring contests, it just wont be based on who is playing the Fury Warrior with the best gear and the most world buffs. Letting them have an easy time of it severely hurts the design of the game that I prefer, and naturally I'm going to advocate for the design I find better =P

3. This is something that was already in Vanilla. What we're asking for is for Shield Slam to behave the way it did from 1.6 to 1.10. We're not asking for re-itemization or class re-balance or anything like that here.

4. I've already gone over the math of this in the thread. The only scenario where rage generation suffers is when you've got a tank overgeared for the content they're running, such as a Naxx geared tank running Molten Core.

In that case most Warriors pre-1.11 would just swap out a few pieces of mitigation gear for threat gear, which is something I consider to be good rather than bad design. In a post-1.11 world gearing full mitigation was never not the best option because threat scaled with a mitigation stat: Block Value.
07/04/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Xecks
naxx would be impossible without 1.11 shield slam.


There's actually nothing to suggest that it would be impossible. Harder to be sure because you can't burn things down as quickly, but not necessarily impossible. Especially considering that we know Blizzard tuned most DPS requirements to be pretty low in Vanilla.

If it's merely extremely hard but still possible I'm fine with that. Naxxramas had something of a legendary status due to how few guilds cleared it before TBC, and it's not like in Classic it's going to be rendered obsolete after a set amount of time.
07/04/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Cyonan
There's actually nothing to suggest that it would be impossible. Harder to be sure because you can't burn things down as quickly, but not necessarily impossible. Especially considering that we know Blizzard tuned most DPS requirements to be pretty low in Vanilla.


Might actually be possible, because now days we have a lot more information on the boss mechanics, and the typical average player has a better understanding of min-maxing their character. Would be kinda cool to raid naxx with out the late shield slam because it would make the content far more difficult, and actually could in some ways give even the best modern raider a real run for his money on the skill needed to clear it. Overall that's a good thing, because it keeps that legendary status of Naxx difficulty.
06/19/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Harland
06/19/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Xanthak
He's trolling dude.

I know in my heart you're right, and I should stop responding to those people. I guess I just want to believe that people are genuinely ignorant rather than an intentional troll.
He’s doing this in a lot of threads. Just generally trying to disrupt the discussions and adding controversy.
06/25/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Harland
...

Was just thinking about that today, because I was reading another forum where some one was crying over the same situation, and I was kinda thinking the same thing..

As you got further into the raids I remember the tanks did take more damage, in turn rage was never a problem at all.. I cant ever remember a time when our tanks were starved for rage on typical fights.

So I am calling BS on the "armor is a nerf" stance.. I get the impression that some people are desperate to hold onto Easy mode 1.11 tanking so much so because they lack the confidence to do it the old way.

Maybe the solution for these people lacking the confidence is to improve on their game play and get their fellow raiders to actually manage their threat, and gear accordingly?

The more of this forum I read, the more I realize that many of these people have never played anything but 1.12, and while its awesome they want Classic, its unfortunate because they have no idea what they're missing.


Thats rich coming from a alt account troll who cant get his story straight on what he did in vanilla, also the fact that you cannot understand the concept of scaling shows you really shouldn't be talking.

When you look at scaling you hold as many variables constant as you can. You dont compare a t2 tank in BWL to a t1 tank in MC you compare both in BWL or in MC so that incoming damage is held constant. When you do that you see that as you get more mitigation you generate less rage from dmg and slightly more rage from auto attacks. This means you have less overall rage which means less heroic strikes and more auto attacks which is a much bigger threat loss than the extra dmg you get from your weapon swings. Hence threat scales inversely with gear which is why you saw raid tanks take gear off if they went to help tank dungeons.


+1
Rallea, you're a compulsive liar.

I actually took the time to scrutinize the OP's post history like I did for you, and I found his post history consistent. He's been asking for Classic WOW on and off for the last 8 years from the posts I can find.

Unlike you I actually found his post history to be consistent on this subject, maybe you should try learning something in your life instead of constantly telling lies.

This is you on your rogue talking about your vanilla experience.

05/01/2018 07:18 AMPosted by Kenpo
mc became irrelevant once other dungeons came out. I literally think that as long as there is no QA or Nax, there will be MC difficulty and relevance.


05/01/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Kenpo
04/30/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Williams
...

Why not just join a guild and then you have far more meaningful game time and experience?


I was in a guild, everyone was. But everything end-game took so long to assemble that some people like me didn't participate in end game. PVP was like that too, decay was fast, especially if you didn't play for a month. Had nothing to look forward to. So for me it was "I'm 60 and nothing else I can do".

They did fix this in BC when I came back.

It's probably why I prefer 1.1 in a sense, there was no end game yet. So everything everyone was doing was still fun and relevant. End game just created top heavy, no middle class, and everyone else at the bottom.


This is you on your rogue talking about how you really feel about vanilla.

04/30/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Kenpo

Nostalrius was simply free. That was main reason for membership. Put $15 on it, even legally, no players.
Fun fact: The tanks on Lightbringer use a 0/31/20 build for lategame as it gives more threat when geared. Everyone will just use this spec instead if Shield Slam is nerfed to the ground. This means you would just be nerfing tanks that are starting out. This would also screw over the horde more as they have less threat reduction for buffs.

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