[Feedback][Frost DK][Detailed]

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Frost DK Feedback

Disclaimer: I do know there is another thread but the OP is not updating it with relevant information. If someone has a suggestion that we can agree needs to be changed/fixed I will update this thread as often as I can.

Defensives

Death Knights have realistically two defensive abilities, Icebound Fortitude and Anti-Magic Shell. Both of these talents during BFA are nerfed to such a weak state that they might as well not exist. The traits from the Artifact Weapon really made our defensives useful and fun. Without those traits we are somehow the Harbingers of Frost who can almost not take a stubbed tow without dying.
We either need more defensives or for them to be bolstered passively like they are currently in Legion.

Rotation

Frost is lacking something that most if not all specs have which is thought behind its rotation/spell priority. When you're playing on either Live or on Beta all you are doing is pressing Remorseless Winter, Obliteration and Pillar on cooldown followed by spending runes on Obliterates and runic power on Frost Strike with the occasional Rime mixed in. This offers gameplay interaction on the levels of Getting Over It where your only mechanic is spinning your mouse in a circle. Does it function and allow you to complete the game? Sure. But there is almost no gameplay interaction.

Talents

56: The Frost Strike Row

This row has a talent that is only used at the beginning due to low haste (Icy Talons). A talent that functions decently, albeit very boring (Runic Attenuation). And a talent that is only chosen due to our current Tier Bonus (Shattering Strikes).

While Icy Talons always has a place at the start of the expansion due to low haste, the only way to make it work well past that is to buff it over time which you would just need to nerf again with another expansion. It needs work.

Runic Attenuation is boring and will always have some place throughout an expansion but there is no gameplay change occurring because of this talent.

Shattering Strikes is an entertaining mechanic because you need to watch the stacks as to not waste them but it just wont last without the tier set bolstering how many stacks we gain.
Potential change to this row could be adding in an AOE spender like Unholy has that is more fitting to the Frost aesthetic.

57: The Resource Row
This row feels like it wants to help you manage your resources as a DK but doesn't hit the mark with at least two of the talents.

Freezing Fog has on place in this row and needs to go. It's boring, uninspired, filler talent that doesn't fit the theme of the other two talents at all.

Murderous Efficiency is actually a very decent talent. It's gameplay is a little RNG but reliable at 50% and makes the spec more fluid, may need to become baseline.

Horn of Winter offers the same function that Icy Talons does in the sense that we will want to use this only in early expansions due to low haste/resource regeneration.

58: The Crowd Control Row
This row clearly is meant to give you CC but fails to do so in a meaningful way with it's useless talent (Abomination's Might), it's nerfed talent (Winter is Coming), and a decent CC that is better suited for PVP (Blinding Sleet).

No one takes Abomination's Might as far as I am aware. It's low chance to function on a single target ability that requires two runes is a poor design and offers little to no value.

Winter is Coming was fine as a talent if you took away the requirement of Pillar and left it as a stun. We are FROST Death Knights and we now have no AOE stun which makes us more useless than before in things like M+.

Blinding Sleet is a functionally good talent but it is much better suited in a PVP situation than a raid or even M+ situation

Continued below...
Continued

60: The Pillar of Frost Row
An almost perfect row that has a just useless talent holding it back.

Icecap allows your burst period to happen more often. Excellent talent.

Avalanche is the polar opposite of Icecap and that's great. Instead of some burst more often, it makes the burst even more bursty. Excellent talent.

Now we come to the problem. This talent makes no sense in any scenario. Not only does it not fit the theme of this row in any way, it also is designed as an AOE talent that gets overshadowed by the combo of Icecap/Avalanche with Frostscythe. Simply no reason to pick this talent.

75: The Defensive Row?
This row is the only defensive(?) row we have in this spec and it's so confused that it seems like someone was putting together a puzzle and just mashed the pieces until they fit.

Permafrost was nerfed and I feel as though that was because our AA damage is higher in BFA than in Legion so I can give it a pass on that aspect, however, this talent is beyond boring and really just a minor portion of our survivability. Very weak.

Inexorable Assault feels like a band-aid that just needs to go. It doesn't really have a place anywhere for Frost DK, especially in what should be our defensive row.

Wraith Walk should instead exist in a movement talent row which we currently don't have. With Death's Advance and the option to talent for Wraith Walk, it's actually a great compromise, but this needs to be in a talent row dedicated to movement.

90: The AOE Row
Gathering Storm is great because it makes you want to pump runes into it for a bursty AOE situation. Could use tuning to make competitive with the loss of the Artifact Weapon.

Frozen Pulse has to go. It's only place is at the beginning of the expansion due to possible moments of waiting for runes but that's simply poor design. Designing a talent to work only when your haste is so low you can't press any buttons is unhealthy.

Frostscythe is great. It may work better as a baseline ability so that you can choose to use the 1 rune AOE spell or the 2 rune single target spell.

100: The Ultimate Row?
Hungering Rune Weapon needs to go. Impossible to use the resources it supplies while offer such a poor amount of damage during it's CD and not allowing us to use Empowered Rune Weapon when we really need it.

Obliteration is okay at best. It works well but is very uninspired. It just takes the regular rotation and makes you press Obliterate less times in a row.

Breath of Sindragosa is such a great talent that it feels like we aren't allowed to play. You have seriously developed a talent that feels iconic, exciting, and fun, but you just don't want us to play it so it either gets nerfed numbers wise or functionality wise by putting the one talent that made it good on the same row. Make this a big deal or make it baseline.
Placeholder for updating if I need to...

People seem to want an Army of the Dead feeling ability.

An undead army of frost mages or some Icy Whelps.

The community seems to be in consensus about our defensives being awful, both in quality and quantity.

Resources feel awful is something I am hearing a lot. You need so much haste to make the spec feel even decent and the damage isn't even there to back up how slow it is. Fix resource generation by making Runic Attenuation baseline and more rune regen to follow.
I would like to add there also is hardly any synergy between the talents and the Ultimate Row (100).

IMO the level 100 talent row should be the basis of the entire reason you spec, however as it stands our talents don't support that.

Compared to other classes are talents are boring and totally lackluster.
There simply isn't anything exciting or has me go "OH I want to try that out!".
It really just feels I'm picking the best of the worst so I don't gimp my DPS or survivability.
They should split IBF into two spells, separate the stun break and the damage mitigation. If you use IBF purely for mitigation as is often the case in PvE and occasionally in PvP it's exceptionally weak. Compared to barkskin for example it has 3 times the cooldown and is 4 seconds shorter for the same mitigation amount.
My suggestion from the other thread.

Obliterate needs better scaling, It could be through crit chance converted into damage on KM procs, or making it a hybrid spell just like scourge strike.

Fury of Sindragosa needs to be back, it's a core part of frost aoe and it looks too freaking awesome to be gone.

Freezing Fog doesn't fit its row, It could instead be replaced by T19 bonus, rime proc awards 10 runic power.

Avalanche and Glacial Advance could easily be replaced, I don't think I've ever picked these talents before.

Inexorable Assault - I really dislike this talent, and since we lost our artifact I feel like we need a healing option in this slot.

Wraith Walk - Could we please have this gone. I'd much rather have a talent that buffs DA than having too put this on my bar, It's clunky, It's on gcd and everybody hates it.

Hungering Rune Weapon should be back at the 4th row, BoS needs a synergy build back, since we lost the legendaries that made it OP.

Pillar of Frost and Obliteration are two puny cooldowns. Obliteration could now replace Pillar of Frost to make one great cooldown. Something like 30%+ frost damage and Obliterate now does frost damage 20 sec duration, 90 sec cd and affected by Icecap

Frost survivability is overall terrible atm, we need something baseline to make up for the lost of the artifact, we're curently the squishiest melee in the game (PVE).
I have a few suggestion to improve this, either one is fine with me.

- AMS back to WoD days, 50% absorb at 45 sec cooldown
- 15% baseline aoe reduction
- IBF cooldown lowered to 1.5 min
- Death's advance improved, WW removed and a full row dedicated to defensives.

Frozen Army of The Dead - This is me just tripping. It would be awesome to have an army of frosty skeleton mages casting frost bolts and ice lace at the enemy.
05/24/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Kni

Frozen Army of The Dead - This is me just tripping. It would be awesome to have an army of frosty skeleton mages casting frost bolts and ice lace at the enemy.


Make them spectral wraiths/liches and we are more in line with our theme and less likely to annoy shadow priests.
05/24/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Kni

Frozen Army of The Dead - This is me just tripping. It would be awesome to have an army of frosty skeleton mages casting frost bolts and ice lace at the enemy.


That would be a great Tier 100 talent. But I would make it as a army of undead frozen whelps.

So the last tier would be: Sindy's Army, Breath of Sindy and Sindy's Fury.
Hi, I'm Teebufall from Kazzak-EU. I've mained Frost DK since the start of cataclysm, trough mop and wod and even in legion. I'd like to give my input on frost DK in BFA and thought this would be a good thread to post it in rather than create a new thread. I've wanted to post feedback earlier, but they announced they were bringing frost DK changes to the beta still. It's been a month since that announcement and all we've had is a talent row being swapped and losing an extra ability.

Gameplay
Dual wielding has made frost Death knights lose their class fantasy value. Frost death knights in most players eyes, are a slow but hard hitting class. However currently they seem to be portraying an axe slinging madman with two broken legs. By Giving Frost Death Knight 2H back this class fantasy could be restored.
Poor Arguements against bringing 2H frost DK back:
Unbalance between DW and 2H would break the class. - Since damage scales with attack power and not with weapon damage in BFA this arguement is out of question, the damage can be exactly the same.
Death Knights can only use 1 runeforge, making DW better anyway. - Simple fix: Have Frost DK bne allowed 2 runeforged on their 2h weapon!
Dual Wield was the preferred spec, which is why they picked Dual wield. - Dual wield is being forced for no reason other than it being stronger nearing the end of WoD.
If you want to use a 2H weapon just play Unholy, Arms or Ret! - I do not enjoy playing these classes.

Defensives
With Ice in your veins gone, Frost Death knight has poor selfhealing (15% health for 45 Runic power). MoP/WoD did this right with having Death Siphon, costing a resource that is scarce but healing for a decent amount.
Losing Mirror ball also greatly reduces the effectiveness of Anti-magic Shield, DoT-effects not getting removed means half of your antimagic shell will already be used up by these effects. Dispelling multiple UA or Vampiric Touch without getting silences/feared or losing health. It can also be used to dispell roots/snares, which helps a bit with our mobility. The fact that we can use these abilities offensively aswel is still a good thing though.

Talents
  • Level 56.
  • Shattering Strikes: Good Talent, Can stay as it is.
    Not Only Is this good for PvE with their current tier-21 set, In PvP this Talent makes Frost strikes have a nice "burst" effect, which lower rated players don't always expect. A side-effect of this is when swapping targets you have to re-build your stacks, but these do go fairly quickly.
    Icy Talons: Decent/Good Talent, Can stay as it is.
    Increasing Attack speed by 36% is not that good of a talent, Yes it does help with more killing machine procs which is why it is used in PvP a lot. In PvE this is a constant 36% attack speed increase, in PvP it is a talent that loses its value when playing against classes that kite a lot, due to the loss of Chill of the grave.
    Runic Attenuation: Bad Talent, Has to go.
    Giving 1 Runic power per auto-attack (every 1.3s)is pretty lackluster and just plain bad. It's not a dependable income of resources.

  • Level 57.
  • Freezing fog Usable talent, Could use a rework.
    Increasing damage of Howling Blast and Frost Fever by 20% flat is a bit poor in terms of a talent, flat damage increases seem to be more of a artifact/heart of azeroth kind of thing. (Just look at Blast Radius.)
    Murderous Efficiency Decent Talent, Can stay.
    Giving a 50% chance on consuming killing machine to get a free rune is a good talent when struggling with rune regen.
    Horn of Winter Bad Talent, Need removing.
    Gaining 2 Runes and generating 20 Runic power seems good, it can help if you mess your rotation up or went too all in on your burst to try and get a kill but failed to finish the target off. But the 2 issues with the talent are: You already have Empower Rune Weapon/Hungering Rune weapon, which are basically the same, and it's on the global cooldown. Abilities like these are for when you really need the resources on demand, if i could wait 1.5/2 seconds to use the runes could have have just skipped a GCD.
  • Level 58.
  • Abomination's Might Horrible Talent, Has to go it's never picked because there is no scenario in either PvP or PvE where it's actually good.
    A 20% chance on obliterate critical strikes dazing players for 5 seconds. This talent is just useless in PvP when we have remorseless winter up constantly and Icy Chains being a ranged slow for 50%.
    Winter is Coming Decent Talent, Should just be reverted to a stun or completely reworked.
    Enemies being rooted after being hit by remorseless winter is decent -i guess- if it weren't for the fact , i did prefer the AoE stun which was also dispellable and had a ramp up time so not even remotely overpowered. (Demon hunters got their instant AoE stun back, i don't see why DKs lose theirs.)
    Blinding Sleet Decent Talent, Wouldn't mind it being removed as it is just a knock-off of blinding light that paladins have and it's not even close to being as good.
    Blinding Players in front of you for 4 seconds is fairly decent, but in reality, the range isn't that big, and it's in a frontal cone, so harder to use effectively.

  • Level 60.
  • Icecap Usable talent, Can stay as it is.
    Critical strikes reducing cooldown on your offensive cooldown is something that seems to work just fine.
    Glacial Advance Usable, Could use a rework.
    Abilities like Glacial Advance, even if it does a higher amount of damage, are bad for PvP in a game where everybody uses targets rather than frontal cones. Targets move too often for it to be a reliable source of damage.
    Avalanche This was a decent talent but lost most of it's value in bfa, could use a buff/slight rework
    With Pillar of Frost being on the GCD and Avalanches damage only pretty low. It currently is pretty bad. because our crit rating is quite low in the start of an expansion, hitting 5/7 crits over the duration of pillar, it could use a buff/rework.

  • Level 75.
  • Permafrost Usable talent, Could use a buff.
    Having an absorption on you after doing an auto-attack is great defensively, the issue it currently has is that it's negligible, thus wasting the talent, it can absorb about 30% of a low, non-buffed DoT tick.
    Inexorable Assault Good Talent, Can stay as it is.
    Doing extra auto-attack damage when out of range is good, it effectively means you don't lose out on all damage whilst being kited (and you get kited a lot).
    Wraith Walk Usable, but bad talent - The fact this ability was baseline and turned into a talent, shows me that blizzard has no idea what they want to do with frost DK mobility.
    Giving a 70% speed increase for 4 seconds is decent, it breaking roots is also fine. The issue is that is doesn't always cancel when trying to use an ability.

  • Level 90.
  • Gathering Storm Great talent. No changes required. Mainly used in PvP.
    Using your resources correctly and managing your rotation rewarding increased damage and longer AoE/Cleave is a good thing.
    Frozen Pulse Bad Talent. Attempting to give protection for poorly managing your rotation/resources. Can be removed.
    giving increased auto-attack damage that can cleave is fine, but not when it's a 'reward' from poorly managing your resources.
    Frostscythe Decent talent. Not really used in PvP but viable for levelling/questing
    Good Cleave ability

  • Level 100.
  • Hungering Rune Weapon As of BFA Bad talent Design. Remove.
    Giving 1 rune and 5 runic power every 1.5 seconds and 20% haste for 12 seconds should be good, but the fundamental issue is it being on Global Cooldown will have you waste your resources. Abilities like these(empower rune weapon and Horn of winter too) are designed to give you 'on-demand' resources, but when on a global cooldown, these don't provide the on-demand resources you need. The flat 20% haste buff increasing rune regen, which will just overflow you with wasted resources, and extra attack speed which will only give you more auto attacks but it being 20% for 12 seconds is almost negligible.
    Obliteration As of BFA Poor Talent design. Rework needed.
    Howling blast and Frost strike giving Killing machine and Obliterate costing only 1 rune, makes this talent mainly used for getting back resources when combined with murderous efficiency. Although good in theory, it being on the GCD just makes the ability worth less and thus not being used as often as it should be.
    Breath of Syndragosa Synergises poorly with the first talent tier, Rework/removal needed.
    15 RP per second is fine, having it do reduced damage to secondary targets is fairly wierd for an ability that is clearly meant for hitting multiple targets, it being in a frontal cone, The issue with BoS however, is that it devalues the level 56 tier talents, as you want to pool all your runic power for BoS, you'll stop using Frost strikes.
    Honor Talents
  • The Good
  • Decomposing, Necrotic and Heartstop Aura
    These all make you think twice about not bringing a Death Knight to your Arena/RBG, Decomposing and Necrotic makes you want to follow the death knights target for best damage output, Heartstop helps peel for your teammates by increasing the cooldown on their abilites.
    Anti-Magic Zone
    Bringing a 60% magic damage reduction makes this ability amazing, although this should probably be in the regular talents and perhaps be possible to empower it with honor talents.
    Dark Simulacrum
    Being Able to copy a spell is amazing! By stealing Blessing of Protection or Pain supression you suddenly bring more defensives to the team; stealing Greater Pyroblast suddenly gives you big pressure or kill potential; Stealing Polymorph, Cyclone or Mind control can turn your game around. This spell however should be Baseline.

  • The Bad
  • Tundra Stalker This should be reverted to how it is in legion.
    Increasing the critical strike chance of your next frost strike by 50% for 6 seconds after hitting a rooted target with a frost strike is just wierd. Yes it is fairly strong, but the fact most roots break on damage makes it so you can't really chain multiple frost strikes for this buff.
    Cadaverous Pallor
    a 20% chance of magical damage being converted into DoT disease is not a good defensive, when playing with a healer who cannot dispel diseases this has no effect other than surviving an extra 2 seconds from time to time.
    Chill Streak
    3% of targets total health seems like a lot, but it just isn't. The range on it bouncing on it is also not that big usually it'll only hit 1 target.
    Frozen Center
    Rooting all targets hit by the first tick of remorseless winter this ability seems good, the issue comes when you combine it with winter is coming on your regular talents, it will start by rooting everybody in place and then root them for another 4 seconds due to DR, so you're still on a total of 8 seconds rooted and you're already on the last stage of the DR.

  • The Ugly
  • Deathchill
    Death grip applying Chains of Ice seems like a good ability, especially now that death grip is on the global cooldown, The issue with the spell is it's second effect. Applying chains of ice to a target that already has chains of ice on him will root the target for 4 seconds. When you Death grip a target with chains of ice with this honor talent, your target will be rooted in place where it was nullifying your death grip.
    Delirium
    Howling blast ans Frost strike increasing the cooldown of movement enhancing effects by 25% stacking up to 2 times for 50% sounds good, but it's actually only useful against a mage blink
    Overpowered rune weapon
    In the new build, it reduces the effectiveness of empower rune weapon, giving it only 3 runes. Or halves the duration of Hungering rune Weapon to 6 seconds rather than 12. but also reducing its cooldown by half. Changing this talent like this means they want go forward with the current design on Hungering rune weapon, which imo should just get removed. halving its cooldown and effectiveness is only going to give you another wasted GCD and on hungering rune weapon having having the 20% haste increase for only 6 seconds will give you only 1 extra auto attack/chance of a killing machine proc making this talent even worse than it was.

    Changes i'd like to see
  • Frost Strike and Obliterate usable with 2h weapons again.
  • Entire Level 100 Talent tier removed/reworked.
  • Honor talents given an overhaul
  • Mirror Ball and Ice in your veins brought baseline to frost. These by themselves aren't strong enough to be a talent and combining both to a single talent would just make whatever you put in that tier never get picked for PvP/levelling
  • An extra utility, The Dispell that was implemented and then taken/given to demon hunters would've served this purpose just fine, we used to have Icy touch dispel and it wasn't that much of an issue i don't see why Death knights, as the anti-magic class can't have a magic dispel
  • Chillblains, it's a passive that has been in the game since wotlk, it is jsut wierd it has been removed form the death knight toolkit.
  • Necrotic Plague, or something similar. Giving Runic power when hit by somebody effected by this Dot is strong and would help in PvP not getting starved on resources. The damage of a Dot increasing over time or with multiple applications is in my opinion better design (same with having Remorseless winter up for 20 seconds) it shows how well you can manage resources/buffs but is also increased by some lucky procs etc.
  • PS: if a developer replies, Please mention if frost DK can get their 2h back or not. Need to know if i can go ahead and cancel my sub and get a refund for bfa now or if it will actually be worth playing the game?
    05/24/2018 07:49 PMPosted by Draeros
    05/24/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Kni

    Frozen Army of The Dead - This is me just tripping. It would be awesome to have an army of frosty skeleton mages casting frost bolts and ice lace at the enemy.


    That would be a great Tier 100 talent. But I would make it as a army of undead frozen whelps.

    So the last tier would be: Sindy's Army, Breath of Sindy and Sindy's Fury.


    I was gonna say Sindy's Fury should just be our baseline version of Army but I actually like this. As for all of the ideas as to what actually pops up, maybe they could actually use that system they put in place to modify cosmetic things about the game, I think it's called a glyph system if they can remember that.

    05/24/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Moonblight
    Horn of Winter offers the same function that Icy Talons does in the sense that we will want to use this only in early expansions due to low haste/resource regeneration.


    05/24/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Teebufall
    Horn of Winter Bad Talent, Need removing.
    Gaining 2 Runes and generating 20 Runic power seems good, it can help if you mess your rotation up or went too all in on your burst to try and get a kill but failed to finish the target off. But the 2 issues with the talent are: You already have Empower Rune Weapon/Hungering Rune weapon, which are jbasically the same, and it's on the global cooldown. Abilities like these are for when you really need the resources on demand, if i could wait 1.5/2 seconds to use the runes could have have just skipped a GCD.


    Horn of Winter will likely always be used for a Breath build as it is, aside the GCD issue, on-demand runes and runic power.

    05/24/2018 05:06 PMPosted by Moonblight
    Frozen Pulse has to go. It's only place is at the beginning of the expansion due to possible moments of waiting for runes but that's simply poor design. Designing a talent to work only when your haste is so low you can't press any buttons is unhealthy.


    I feel like this just needs a rework. Part of the reason this wasn't being used was the huge nerf it took mid legion on top of the the our builds being tied to set bonus.

    05/24/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Moonblight
    Runic Attenuation is boring and will always have some place throughout an expansion but there is no gameplay change occurring because of this talent.


    Honestly, feels like it should just be baseline and replace it with something. If we want to keep with a Froststrike theme, maybe bring Frozen Pulse down and have it also proc from Froststrike with less than 2(please change back to 3) runes active?

    05/24/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Kni
    Freezing Fog doesn't fit its row, It could instead be replaced by T19 bonus, rime procs award 10 runic power.


    Spot on.

    If Hungering Rune Weapon were to be dropped back down to row lvl 57, it would technically fit with the resource generation, but, likely way too powerful. If, however, we were to replace Horn of Winter with the Seal of Necrofantasia effect or there abouts (adjustments to compete and not be op) and Replace Glacial Advance with Hunger Rune Weapon, we'd be in business. The choice for that row being:
    • Alter your main CD by having it up more frequently
    • Having your main CD be more powerful
    • Change your other big CD/playstyle.


    05/24/2018 05:06 PMPosted by Moonblight
    Frostscythe is great. It may work better as a baseline ability so that you can choose to use the 1 rune AOE spell or the 2 rune single target spell.


    Make Frostsythe baseline add it to Obliteration and change it to having "Each KM used causes a Glacial Advance to shot forth for each enemy hit." This would fill the roll of a cleaving talent. Add to that, a 2 target cleave, might be better to keep Obliterating, 3+ Frostscythe creating 3 Galcial Advances would/should be massive cleave/AoE. This is bearing in mind to have the 100 row being the army/breath/fury choice.
    Frost needs a ground up rebuild. It's rubbish tier, both mechanically and thematically.
    05/24/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Teebufall
    PS: if a developer replies, Please mention if frost DK can get their 2h back or not. Need to know if i can go ahead and cancel my sub and get a refund for bfa now or if it will actually be worth playing the game?


    It sounds like you want the game your way and some of your information is just outright wrong or overly opinionated towards just pvp. Just going to post one as an example.

    05/24/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Teebufall


    Defensives
    With Ice in your veins gone, Frost Death knight has no usable selfhealing (5% health for 45 Runic power - which requires 3 globals!).


    This isnt true on retail or the beta you are supposed to be talking about beta retail is 10% max health and beta is 15% of your max health as a minimum heal. Also If a dev looks at the post and they see misinformation they are more likely to disregard it. So please get on the beta and fact check your post not saying it all is wrong but you have quite a bit that is off base.
    Bumping.
    Did they even develop this spec for BfA? Looks the exact same as live, but somehow 5x worse.
    - I will really, really miss Mirror Ball. Frost has a very weak defensive toolkit overall, but retaining Mirror Ball as a baseline function of AMS would help.

    - IBF is too weak for a 3min CD. Haven't run any M+ on beta but if the design philosophy remains the same as it was in Legion frost is really going to struggle with staying alive through burst damage on higher keys.

    Suggestion: Replace Permafrost or Inexorable Assault (or both!) with a talent that increases the damage reduction of IBF OR significantly reduces the CD at the cost of losing the stun break.

    - Sindragosa's Fury is too cool to be removed. It should absolutely stay in some form. Bring it back as a talent replacing HRW in the 100 tier if you must, but please reinstate it.

    - The current BoS feels awful without access to HRW. I understand that this talent synergy was broken on purpose, but I believe you went too far. The BoS build WAS too dominant in NH, but without HRW BoS just isn't fun. Honestly ERW is a very weak damage cooldown, especially considering its 5min CD, and the effect of HRW could and should be rolled into ERW as baseline functionality.
    Posted by Teebufall
    Horn of Winter Bad Talent, Need removing.
    Gaining 2 Runes and generating 20 Runic power seems good, it can help if you mess your rotation up or went too all in on your burst to try and get a kill but failed to finish the target off. But the 2 issues with the talent are: You already have Empower Rune Weapon/Hungering Rune weapon, which are jbasically the same, and it's on the global cooldown. Abilities like these are for when you really need the resources on demand, if i could wait 1.5/2 seconds to use the runes could have have just skipped a GCD.

    Horn of Winter will likely always be used for a Breath build as it is, aside the GCD issue, on-demand runes and runic power.


    Having Abilties to generate resources on a GCD don't make them really on-demand anymore and should be reworked. I'ts essentially still waiting for resources.

    BoS is in my opinion a badly designed talent. It has no interraction with the first tier talents as you will pool Runic power, thus stopping Icy talon stacks or not effectively using your Shattering Strikes mechanic.

    05/24/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Teebufall
    PS: if a developer replies, Please mention if frost DK can get their 2h back or not. Need to know if i can go ahead and cancel my sub and get a refund for bfa now or if it will actually be worth playing the game?


    It sounds like you want the game your way and some of your information is just outright wrong or overly opinionated towards just pvp. Just going to post one as an example.


    Who wouldn't? WoWs fundamentals are classes, If you don't enjoy the class you play, how can you enjoy the rest of the game?
    I Don't enjoy the class fantasy - or rather whatever Blizzard is attempting to push as class fantasy. I want to fight with a 2H weapon. Even holy paladins are using 2h weapons! Having an ability like Obliterate is just wrong, there is no Obliterating with 2 toothpicks.

    Most stuff is opinionated towards PvP, as it is the only type of content i actually do in the game. I've barely seen any talk about PvP. I understand you want PvE balance, but PvP balance is important aswel! I'm giving feedback from a PvP standpoint when everybody else gives their input from a PvE standpoint so Devs can make their changes catering to both types of content.


    Defensives
    With Ice in your veins gone, Frost Death knight has no usable selfhealing (5% health for 45 Runic power - which requires 3 globals!).


    This isnt true on retail or the beta you are supposed to be talking about beta retail is 10% max health and beta is 15% of your max health as a minimum heal. Also If a dev looks at the post and they see misinformation they are more likely to disregard it. So please get on the beta and fact check your post not saying it all is wrong but you have quite a bit that is off base.


    You are correct, i was quite tired when i wrote this working on fixing some mistakes.

    05/25/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Hôth
    Suggestion: Replace Permafrost or Inexorable Assault (or both!) with a talent that increases the damage reduction of IBF OR significantly reduces the CD at the cost of losing the stun break.


    I am against this. in PvE Inexorable assault has very low value, in PvP however when you get kited you have extra damage building up to release on the target as soon as you can get on them. buffing Permafrost to give a worthwile absorb effect is good in both PvE and PvP helping your healers.
    I think one of the main problems with Frost is that only rime procs and obliterates do damage. Currently on live you only press frost strike when you're out of runes, to proc more runes, to press more obliterates. You don't press it because frost strike does damage. This should be fixed, as running on full runic power until all your runes are down feels like a really backwards design.

    Another personal problem I have with all DK specs, but frost in particular (due to how slow and melee oriented it is) is in how death grip lost a lot of its value in PvP due to most classes having 2(+) charges on their mobility. Monks, Mages, Demon Hunters and Druids being the main offenders. You literally can't use death grip to counter those classes, because they always have a way to escape it.

    Finally... Resource generation and scaling. I'll be honest, I have no idea how to fix this, but every expansion I can recall off the top of my head had the same issues. DKs feeling crappy until last patch because they just don't generate enough runes, and then feeling crappy at the beginning of each new tier because spells don't naturally scale and need artificial buffing.

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