[Feedback][Frost DK][Detailed]

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Hmm that might be worthwhile for pvp but we gotta see what pvp azerite looks like still
I feel like Blizzard own us at least one baseline ability. Since the beginning of alpha we lost many baseline spells with nothing added in return.

Vampiric aura, the 5% leech buff from Blizzcon (gone)
Wraith Walk (gone/talent)
Mirror Ball (gone)
AoE Stun (gone)
Sindragosa Fury (gone/talent)
Reap Magic (gone)
Pillar of Frost (gone)

The only thing we got was Death's Advance, and a massively nerfed version of it to compensate for WW. Kinda sad that we haven't got a single new toy to go with the expansion.
Thanks for the update mr blue.

I'm really not a fan of the removal of Pillar of Frost. I liked my bland 20% strength buff, it was satisfying to use it and immediately see your damage increase.

A lot of good feedback has already been made on talents I just want to add that too many talents are little more than resource generators. That is nice in the beginning when you can be starved for resources but as you gear up they quickly become trap talents, you will never be able to use the amount of extra resources those talents provide making them a non choice.
After some playtesting, the mess that Frost currently is, i'd like to give my feedback. I still have some hope frost can be at least a tiny bit fun to play again.

This is mainly PvP orientated as these changes pretty much killed any viability for frost in PvP past 1500rating.

First off however, when are we getting 2h frost back. Since damage scaling from attack power, and artifacts being gone, you can give back 2h without any loss of performance.

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The class fantasy:
Cataclysm, mists of Pandaria and early-Warlods of Draenor:
The Frost Death knight, a slow but deadly and robust harbringer of Death.
In game: Slow but heavy-hitting, resilient to magic damage. a counter to most magic based classes.

Legion, Battle for Azeroth and onward:
Combining martial prowess with supernatural cold, frost death knights leave their enemies chilled to the bone—and broken of the will to fight. These frozen undead warriors wield dual blades to strike with ferocity and inflict deathly cold upon anyone who would stand against them.
In game: Weapon slinging madmen that use certain frosty flavoured spells. Countered by every other classes and even terrain.

Frost Death knight should not be a fast paced or even dual wielding spec. Theres Windwalker, Fury, any rogue spec, Feral and even enhancement for fast paced melee.
With these changes frost is pretty much a failed combination for enhancement/fury.

Class fantasy is not something you can just change. You build upon it, not break it for no reason whatsoever.

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Gameplay
Cooldowns:
With Pillar of frost being removed frost lost a big part fo their identity. a 20% strength buff every on demand with a 1 minute cooldown fit the class perfectly, The imunity to knock-back effects being given to every death knight spec, although being apositive change, just leaves frost with even less class identity.
- With frost being a slow and easily kiteable spec whenever we eventually got to our target, we could unload big damage. Now frost has nothing.

Empower rune weapon/Hungering rune weapon, it was good for on-demand resources however it cannot be considered an offensive cooldown. the 20% haste on hungering rune weapon only helped the ability overcap your resources even faster.
Having Empowered rune weapon/Hungering rune weapon to give 5 runic power and 1 rune every 5 seconds, and the ability being on GCD, there is not single moment where its optimal the use the ability. also granting 15% haste - pushing the class fantasy even more to a fast paced spec.

Icebound fortitude buffed from 20% damage reduction to 30% without the loss of the stun immunity. - probably the best change to the entire class since mop! However, with the loss of ice in your veins, self-healing/survivabilty has taken a big hit.

Anti-Magic Shell increasing to cooldown from 45 seconds to 1 minute, fine we'll manage to live. With he removal of mirror ball however we lost a good utility move.

Being unable to be slowed under 70%, or 100% whjen active, speed is good so i'm glad Death's Advance is back.

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Talents
Inexorable assault is something frost death knights have been asking for for ages! partial frost damage being given to Obliterate makes our mastery so much better.
Icy Talons
Increasing melee attack speed by only 5% per stack rather than 12% is a huge nerf. However it probably will be the go-to talent for early BfA
Shattering Strikes
Nothing has changed, still a good talent for PvP

Runic Attenuation Giving a chance to give 3 Runic power on auto attacks, Seems only viable with a Icy Talons/Breath of Sindragosa spec.
Murderous Efficiency Not changed since live, still a good talent.
Horn of winter 2 runes and 20 runic power is pretty good given its 45 seconds cooldown, however this being on the GCD makes this pretty horrible.

Winter is coming an 8 second root AoE root is in theory decent, however with the 5 stacks requirement and the root breaking of remorseless winters own ticks, aswel as having an honor talent that instantly roots upon use of remorseless winter for 4 seconds makes this talent weak.
Asphyxiate is back! I used to say frost needs a stun back in cata, and loved asphyx back in mists/wod, and although i love it being back, frost didn't need a stun to be viable.
Blinding sleet is a talent, i've rarely seen anyone use. With this being in a frontal cone, it's just a gimmicky knock-off from paladins blinding light.

Gathering Storm Although it can longer synergize with Avalanche, this talent still has the best AoE damage output.
Avalanche now giving extra damage to Rime procs, and with the amount of rime procs we can effectively get, this is
Glacial Advance Doing high damage on a 12 seconds cooldown would be good, but it clipping on every bit of terrain makes it not viable for most fights.

Premafrost a decent damage absorb, but outside of 1v1 duels or arena with DoT classes, this will not see any use with Death pact being back.
Wraith Walk can you just remove this already?
Death pact an Instant heal for 50% of health, with a 30% healing absorb, Best talent in the tier by far.

Freezing Fog Howling blast and frost fever damage given a flat 15% increase is a decent talent, but not good enough, i'm hoping the extra 100% damage increase on rime procs stays, or everybody will be using Frostwyrm's fury.
Frostscythe willl never see any use in PvP, decent enough for PvE.
Frostwyrm's Fury The old syndragosa, a good finishing move.

Icecap Reducing to cooldown of Pillar of Frost was pretty good, but the damage output couldn't compare to Avalanche in Legion. With it now reducing the cooldown of Empower rune weapon by 3 seconds per critical strike from frost strike and obliterate i highly doubt it will see much use given Empower Rune Weapon is a terrible cooldown.
Pillar of frost... Who am i kidding.. Obliteration Unchanged since Legion apart from the name, it was only used a resource generator for PvE and only used in PvP when you had no honor talents because the others just wouldn't work. Sadly if no changes happen, this will be the only talent that is not completely useless.
Breath of Sindragosa Good for some burst damage, but too easily countered so it won't see any use in PvP.

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Currently, it's not fun to play frost on the beta. Having played 2h frost since Cataclysm, it was the only class that i actively enjoyed playing. I came back to the game 2 weeks before 7.2.5 launched and i hated my main class. i had to resort to using Tmorph to find my class somewhat enjoyable to play. When in 7.3 Blizzard blocked Tmorph, i honestly wanted to quit the game, but iu stayed because of the people i played with, and the thought of being able to play 2h in a year from then.
Please at least give two handed frost back...
Reading through these changes just makes me sad. I'm not going to throw a fit over them, as I'll just switch to the much better looking UH. However, it is upsetting to see the butchering that they've done to Frost for whatever reason.
Glacial Advance fix this or replace it with something from old that worked coughhungeringcoldcough. having it stop on seemingly even ground cuz maybe there was a crack is lazy coding and just scummy

Freezing Fog do something interesting with this talent than rather it be a 15% or so increase to HB and FF like holding down HB increases its damage via the number of runes it consumes then release the button and boom.

Winter is coming change it back to what it was. was a dev asleep when doing this change?

Pillar of frost frantic talent lots of people are mmmmeeehhh ok about it.

Shattering Strikes a pvp talent in the pve tree.
some thoughts
1. FS slows down mobs does extra damage that are cc immune mobs
2. FS transfers Rime from HB to FS
3. does extra damage when FF is one the target

Unholy Pres and WoD DA
will always be better than that dumpster fire WW and gimped DA steaming pile combo
Can we see some changes to Frostwyrm's Fury?

Currently it has quite a problem when taken in Breath of Sindragosa build, because it's a dead CD during Breath. You don't want to use a GCD on Fury during Breath, because you'll probably lose your Breath by doing so.

In that regard, Frostwyrm also is way too niche compared to the other choices, namely Frostscythe.

A simple fix would be making Frostwyrm giving RP. Make it give RP based on the number of targets hit! That way Frostwyrm Fury becomes a great cooldown to be used during Breath, having no rune cost, with the potential of giving a good amount of RP when used optimally.

Also, my proposition for balancing 2h and dw:

Since the weapon damage equation has been reworked, the only obstacle now is razorice/fallen crusader. Just make a two-hander runeforge that has both razorice and fallen crusader baked in one, with a higher frequency of application for razorice stacks to match how often they are applied with dual wielding. I believe that solves all balancing problems.
Or just make razorice / fallen crusader passive spells, like was done with enh shaman windfury. There's literally no point in keeping runeforging in the game as a 'profession' (other than to annoy you when you get weapon upgrades mid-raid).

I also wouldn't mind razorice effect consolidated into 3 stacks, or maybe even 1 stack. Rogues got their poisons consolidated into both those design choices a fair while back, I think it's about time DKs are brought into modern age as well. It's fun to watch stacks increase on a target but at the same time it unnecessarily punishes target-swapping, on a class who's lack of mobility has already become a meme.

Another concern with frost DK in particular is how it brings 0 raid wide buffs / debuffs; Razorice could be that, increasing your frost damage on the target AND all magic damage taken by the target from other sources.
06/11/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Achiron
Can we see some changes to Frostwyrm's Fury?

Currently it has quite a problem when taken in Breath of Sindragosa build, because it's a dead CD during Breath. You don't want to use a GCD on Fury during Breath, because you'll probably lose your Breath by doing so.

In that regard, Frostwyrm also is way too niche compared to the other choices, namely Frostscythe.

A simple fix would be making Frostwyrm giving RP. Make it give RP based on the number of targets hit! That way Frostwyrm Fury becomes a great cooldown to be used during Breath, having no rune cost, with the potential of giving a good amount of RP when used optimally.

Also, my proposition for balancing 2h and dw:

Since the weapon damage equation has been reworked, the only obstacle now is razorice/fallen crusader. Just make a two-hander runeforge that has both razorice and fallen crusader baked in one, with a higher frequency of application for razorice stacks to match how often they are applied with dual wielding. I believe that solves all balancing problems.


I honestly don't want sindragosa's fury to give extra benefits, it's a big damage CD that can hit many enemies. The reward for using it properly is it's big damage output.

Why want to combine it with breath of sindragosa? For extra damage output during burst, which is the whole reason they put every offensive cooldown on CD..

It's not going to happen, it's already a good cooldown being reduced to 3 minute cooldown. Frostscythe and freezing fog provide good benefits already outside BoS i don't see why frostwyrm should give a benefit during BoS

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The 2h being able to be enchanted with a 2h specific runeforge is pretty similar to my suggestion earlier in this thread, which is to be able to have 2 runeforges on a 2h weapon. I still believe this (or your suggestion) is the way to go for frost death knights and bringing back 2handed frost.
06/10/2018 07:37 AMPosted by Kyrios
Please at least give two handed frost back...


its not coming back, its never coming back, and frost was originally designed around dual wield. Just stop...
06/11/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Lina
Or just make razorice / fallen crusader passive spells, like was done with enh shaman windfury. There's literally no point in keeping runeforging in the game as a 'profession' (other than to annoy you when you get weapon upgrades mid-raid).


Runeforges work like weapon enchants, not like shaman imbues. A shaman can have their weapons enchanted ontop of that, a dk cannot have a weapon enchant ontop of a runeforge

06/11/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Achiron
A simple fix would be making Frostwyrm giving RP. Make it give RP based on the number of targets hit! That way Frostwyrm Fury becomes a great cooldown to be used during Breath, having no rune cost, with the potential of giving a good amount of RP when used optimally.


Its not too difficult to get 30 second breaths right now, that would be way to overpowered
06/11/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Teebufall
06/11/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Achiron
Can we see some changes to Frostwyrm's Fury?

Currently it has quite a problem when taken in Breath of Sindragosa build, because it's a dead CD during Breath. You don't want to use a GCD on Fury during Breath, because you'll probably lose your Breath by doing so.

In that regard, Frostwyrm also is way too niche compared to the other choices, namely Frostscythe.

A simple fix would be making Frostwyrm giving RP. Make it give RP based on the number of targets hit! That way Frostwyrm Fury becomes a great cooldown to be used during Breath, having no rune cost, with the potential of giving a good amount of RP when used optimally.

Also, my proposition for balancing 2h and dw:

Since the weapon damage equation has been reworked, the only obstacle now is razorice/fallen crusader. Just make a two-hander runeforge that has both razorice and fallen crusader baked in one, with a higher frequency of application for razorice stacks to match how often they are applied with dual wielding. I believe that solves all balancing problems.


I honestly don't want sindragosa's fury to give extra benefits, it's a big damage CD that can hit many enemies. The reward for using it properly is it's big damage output.

Why want to combine it with breath of sindragosa? For extra damage output during burst, which is the whole reason they put every offensive cooldown on CD..

It's not going to happen, it's already a good cooldown being reduced to 3 minute cooldown. Frostscythe and freezing fog provide good benefits already outside BoS i don't see why frostwyrm should give a benefit during BoS


That way Frostwyrm can compete with Frostscythe, staying in the same row.

It also helps players who like to take the risk of keeping longer breaths.
06/11/2018 08:49 AMPosted by Killstheweak
06/10/2018 07:37 AMPosted by Kyrios
Please at least give two handed frost back...


its not coming back, its never coming back, and frost was originally designed around dual wield. Just stop...

Frost was originally designed as the tankier specs out of the 3 and it was 2h.
I'd just like to add my own experience to the mix, for the sake of showing support for what many are currently saying.

I mostly like the new direction this latest change brought us too.

I feel like we need something, anything baseline. Pillar of Frost with 20% strength was crucial damage, and felt good to use. I'd like to see it brought back in some shape or form.

Remorseless Winter and Death Grip being taken off the GCD would be very nice. Especially for us PvP'ers. Currently its clunky to use either one.

Am I crazy or is Death Pact not healing for nearly 50% on beta?

Hope we see some changes!
06/11/2018 08:49 AMPosted by Killstheweak
its not coming back, its never coming back, and frost was originally designed around dual wield. Just stop...


You are probably correct about it never coming back, but you are absolutely wrong about everything else in your statement.

But, no. I won't stop. I would like to have my original main class given back. Sorry if that annoys you.
06/11/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Mizudaisho
06/11/2018 08:49 AMPosted by Killstheweak
...

its not coming back, its never coming back, and frost was originally designed around dual wield. Just stop...

Frost was originally designed as the tankier specs out of the 3 and it was 2h.


Frost was never tankier than blood. This is the biggest load I have read in any beta class thread ever.
06/11/2018 05:44 PMPosted by Mêphiston
06/11/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Mizudaisho
...
Frost was originally designed as the tankier specs out of the 3 and it was 2h.


Frost was never tankier than blood. This is the biggest load I have read in any beta class thread ever.


Yeah they could all tank, to a degree, and could all use two-handed weapons.
2h Frost is gone just like 2h enhance.

Embrace the fact that frost is unique as it is hte only 1h using strength DPS and not a carbon copy 2h user like every other plate DPS.

Also frost was never tankier than blood. Even before blood was the tank spec, it was the best tank of the three because of will of the necropolis + vamp blood being so good. Frost was pretty much exclusively DPS and was made with DW in mind.

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