[Feedback][Frost DK][Detailed]

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06/11/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Frauste
not a carbon copy 2h user like every other plate DPS.


Like the... 2 others - Arms Warrior and Ret Paladin? (Excluding Unholy since its a pet class)

If only duel wield had such a vast swath of specs to choose from, oh wait...
Lots of feedback on the first round of changes. Here’s the second iteration:

Pillar of Frost
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

After reading all the feedback and examining the ability’s place on the spec, we think the ability did provide a couple valuable things to the Frost rotation. One is Pillar of Frost is a window to play around – it allowed you to occasionally pool/spend your resources for a gain in a way that otherwise Frost doesn’t really have baseline. Additionally, it was a damage amp that you could/would want to line up cooldowns for – Remorseless Winter, Frostwyrm’s Fury, etc. Straightforward, but felt good to use.

Pillar of Frost is now back, at 45 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration – shorter cooldown but same uptime. Since it’s providing some useful gameplay direction for the rotation, we’re leaning into it more and making it available a little more often. Additionally, to give it just a little more texture and gameplay, its damage bonus now starts at 15% and increases by 1% per Rune spent while it’s active. Pillar usually ends with a 25% damage bonus or more.

Talent Changes
  • Glacial Advance now costs 30 Runic Power (instead of 1 Rune), has a 6 sec cooldown (down from 15 sec), and also applies Razorice to all enemies hit. Glacial Advance overlapped a lot with Frostscythe in both use and cost, and we’re looking to differentiate it so it can find its own use case.
  • Cold Heart has replaced Shattering Strikes. It’s basically the same as the legendary but without the stun, and provides the spec’s talent tree with some single-target burst.
  • Obliteration is mostly back to its live design, but it’s now a passive, and triggered while Pillar of Frost is active. With Pillar of Frost being back baseline, we still want to avoid a setup where casing 3 self-buff cooldown consecutively was possible (Pillar of Frost, Empower Rune Weapon, Obliteration, in any order). We're still iterating a bit on Obliteration's cost reduction mechanic - it has some slightly awkward effects on resources which we'd like to make feel better.

Current talent layout:
  • Level 60: Avalanche, Frozen Pulse (now requires fewer than 3 full Runes instead of fewer than 2), Frostscythe
  • Level 90: Gathering Storm, Glacial Advance, Frostwyrm’s Fury
  • Level 100: Icecap (same as live, affecting Pillar of Frost), Obliteration, Breath of Sindragosa

Notes:
  • Icy Talons now triggers from Breath of Sindragosa, since it’s replacing your Frost Strike for a period of time.
  • Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

As always, thanks for the continued feedback and we expect to hear more from you all.
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Lots of feedback on the first round of changes. Here’s the second iteration:

Pillar of Frost
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

After reading all the feedback and examining the ability’s place on the spec, we think the ability did provide a couple valuable things to the Frost rotation. One is Pillar of Frost is a window to play around – it allowed you to occasionally pool/spend your resources for a gain in a way that otherwise Frost doesn’t really have baseline. Additionally, it was a damage amp that you could/would want to line up cooldowns for – Remorseless Winter, Frostwyrm’s Fury, etc. Straightforward, but felt good to use.

Pillar of Frost is now back, at 45 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration – shorter cooldown but same uptime. Since it’s providing some useful gameplay direction for the rotation, we’re leaning into it more and making it available a little more often. Additionally, to give it just a little more texture and gameplay, its damage bonus now starts at 15% and increases by 1% per Rune spent while it’s active. Pillar usually ends with a 25% damage bonus or more.

Talent Changes
  • Glacial Advance now costs 30 Runic Power (instead of 1 Rune), has a 6 sec cooldown (down from 15 sec), and also applies Razorice to all enemies hit. Glacial Advance overlapped a lot with Frostscythe in both use and cost, and we’re looking to differentiate it so it can find its own use case.
  • Cold Heart has replaced Shattering Strikes. It’s basically the same as the legendary but without the stun, and provides the spec’s talent tree with some single-target burst.
  • Obliteration is mostly back to its live design, but it’s now a passive, and triggered while Pillar of Frost is active. With Pillar of Frost being back baseline, we still want to avoid a setup where casing 3 self-buff cooldown consecutively was possible (Pillar of Frost, Empower Rune Weapon, Obliteration, in any order). We're still iterating a bit on Obliteration's cost reduction mechanic - it has some slightly awkward effects on resources which we'd like to make feel better.

Current talent layout:
  • Level 60: Avalanche, Frozen Pulse (now requires fewer than 3 full Runes instead of fewer than 2), Frostscythe
  • Level 90: Gathering Storm, Glacial Advance, Frostwyrm’s Fury
  • Level 100: Icecap (same as live, affecting Pillar of Frost), Obliteration, Breath of Sindragosa

Notes:
  • Icy Talons now triggers from Breath of Sindragosa, since it’s replacing your Frost Strike for a period of time.
  • Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

As always, thanks for the continued feedback and we expect to hear more from you all.


SEPH!!!

All great changes!!!! Brilliant!!!

But please i sincerely beg of you to give us an answer on two handed frost returning???

Please i begggg you seph god please tell us if we should just stop asking for it since you guys wont be adding it back or if there is a glimmer of hope that we might see two handed frost again??!!

Please i beg u i beg u just give us one little reply on frost two handed.

Either “its comming back”
Or “its never returning”

Atleast that way we can all move onward with our wow lives...

We honestly dont care if it’s inferior to dual wielding we just want the option back we miss two handed frost sooo much....
Back to being OP boys.

Good changes.
06/12/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Zaa
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Lots of feedback on the first round of changes. Here’s the second iteration:

Pillar of Frost
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

After reading all the feedback and examining the ability’s place on the spec, we think the ability did provide a couple valuable things to the Frost rotation. One is Pillar of Frost is a window to play around – it allowed you to occasionally pool/spend your resources for a gain in a way that otherwise Frost doesn’t really have baseline. Additionally, it was a damage amp that you could/would want to line up cooldowns for – Remorseless Winter, Frostwyrm’s Fury, etc. Straightforward, but felt good to use.

Pillar of Frost is now back, at 45 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration – shorter cooldown but same uptime. Since it’s providing some useful gameplay direction for the rotation, we’re leaning into it more and making it available a little more often. Additionally, to give it just a little more texture and gameplay, its damage bonus now starts at 15% and increases by 1% per Rune spent while it’s active. Pillar usually ends with a 25% damage bonus or more.

Talent Changes
  • Glacial Advance now costs 30 Runic Power (instead of 1 Rune), has a 6 sec cooldown (down from 15 sec), and also applies Razorice to all enemies hit. Glacial Advance overlapped a lot with Frostscythe in both use and cost, and we’re looking to differentiate it so it can find its own use case.
  • Cold Heart has replaced Shattering Strikes. It’s basically the same as the legendary but without the stun, and provides the spec’s talent tree with some single-target burst.
  • Obliteration is mostly back to its live design, but it’s now a passive, and triggered while Pillar of Frost is active. With Pillar of Frost being back baseline, we still want to avoid a setup where casing 3 self-buff cooldown consecutively was possible (Pillar of Frost, Empower Rune Weapon, Obliteration, in any order). We're still iterating a bit on Obliteration's cost reduction mechanic - it has some slightly awkward effects on resources which we'd like to make feel better.

Current talent layout:
  • Level 60: Avalanche, Frozen Pulse (now requires fewer than 3 full Runes instead of fewer than 2), Frostscythe
  • Level 90: Gathering Storm, Glacial Advance, Frostwyrm’s Fury
  • Level 100: Icecap (same as live, affecting Pillar of Frost), Obliteration, Breath of Sindragosa

Notes:
  • Icy Talons now triggers from Breath of Sindragosa, since it’s replacing your Frost Strike for a period of time.
  • Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

As always, thanks for the continued feedback and we expect to hear more from you all.


SEPH!!!

All great changes!!!! Brilliant!!!

But please i sincerely beg of you to give us an answer on two handed frost returning???

Please i begggg you seph god please tell us if we should just stop asking for it since you guys wont be adding it back or if there is a glimmer of hope that we might see two handed frost again??!!

Please i beg u i beg u just give us one little reply on frost two handed.

Either “its comming back”
Or “its never returning”

Atleast that way we can all move onward with our wow lives...

We honestly dont care if it’s inferior to dual wielding we just want the option back we miss two handed frost sooo much....


They aren't going to give the "its never returning" reply for anything ever anymore. If anything it would be "its not returning at this time", leaving the door open for the future (even if they never intend to bring it back).

People would call Blizzard a liar (a favorite pastime) otherwise if in 5 years they decide to bring it back.
Pillar of Frost is now back, at 45 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration – shorter cooldown but same uptime.
Level 100: Icecap (same as live, affecting Pillar of Frost)

It will be pretty interesting to see how these two interact.

I think 1 minute cooldown and 20 seconds duration for PoF were fine - it would line up well with Breath of Sindragosa. The change to damage so that the % strength ramps up over time looks great.

06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Cold Heart has replaced Shattering Strikes.

It's weird to see Shattering Strikes removed after only one tier of it being viable. I really like the interaction of T21 4 set bonus with this passive, it feels like a mini game. I wonder if Icebringer and Frostreaper crystalline swords could become azerite traits and apply razorice, that would be interesting to see.

Is Inexorable Assault going to get changed again since Cold Heart has a similar effect?

06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

I would love to see the cooldown changed to 2 minutes, so we have a defensive skill available much more often in PvP.

We are losing 8 yards on Frost Strike, AMS removing all magic effects and Death Strike healing for 400% more. Will any of these return via azerite traits?

Speaking of PvP, "Winter is Coming" feels useless and could be tweaked a little bit. Either a 3 second AoE stun, or a 5 second heavy slow that can't be dispelled.

We are losing 12% attack speed from the artifact traits, and 21% more from Icy Talons. Is the base attack speed going to be tuned?

--- Nightswifty
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Lots of feedback on the first round of changes. Here’s the second iteration:

Pillar of Frost
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

After reading all the feedback and examining the ability’s place on the spec, we think the ability did provide a couple valuable things to the Frost rotation. One is Pillar of Frost is a window to play around – it allowed you to occasionally pool/spend your resources for a gain in a way that otherwise Frost doesn’t really have baseline. Additionally, it was a damage amp that you could/would want to line up cooldowns for – Remorseless Winter, Frostwyrm’s Fury, etc. Straightforward, but felt good to use.

Pillar of Frost is now back, at 45 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration – shorter cooldown but same uptime. Since it’s providing some useful gameplay direction for the rotation, we’re leaning into it more and making it available a little more often. Additionally, to give it just a little more texture and gameplay, its damage bonus now starts at 15% and increases by 1% per Rune spent while it’s active. Pillar usually ends with a 25% damage bonus or more.

Talent Changes
  • Glacial Advance now costs 30 Runic Power (instead of 1 Rune), has a 6 sec cooldown (down from 15 sec), and also applies Razorice to all enemies hit. Glacial Advance overlapped a lot with Frostscythe in both use and cost, and we’re looking to differentiate it so it can find its own use case.
  • Cold Heart has replaced Shattering Strikes. It’s basically the same as the legendary but without the stun, and provides the spec’s talent tree with some single-target burst.
  • Obliteration is mostly back to its live design, but it’s now a passive, and triggered while Pillar of Frost is active. With Pillar of Frost being back baseline, we still want to avoid a setup where casing 3 self-buff cooldown consecutively was possible (Pillar of Frost, Empower Rune Weapon, Obliteration, in any order). We're still iterating a bit on Obliteration's cost reduction mechanic - it has some slightly awkward effects on resources which we'd like to make feel better.

Current talent layout:
  • Level 60: Avalanche, Frozen Pulse (now requires fewer than 3 full Runes instead of fewer than 2), Frostscythe
  • Level 90: Gathering Storm, Glacial Advance, Frostwyrm’s Fury
  • Level 100: Icecap (same as live, affecting Pillar of Frost), Obliteration, Breath of Sindragosa

Notes:
  • Icy Talons now triggers from Breath of Sindragosa, since it’s replacing your Frost Strike for a period of time.
  • Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

As always, thanks for the continued feedback and we expect to hear more from you all.


Seph.

Buddy.

Can I call you buddy?

These are, imo, great changes. Having PoF back is amazing (and I adore the idea of it having a ramping damage component), having Obliteration as a passive is a very clever (if simultaneously straightforward) solution to the GCD, Glacial Advance miiiiiight have a purpose? It seems like a reversed case of Epidemic. Either way, I am *very* excited to test these out, and I've very quickly gone from trepidation based on the last post to excitement. This looks good. Thank you for listening to our concerns.
Is Inexorable Assault going to get changed again since Cold Heart has a similar effect?


IIRC, the talent set up looks like:

Passive/Proc/Ability

So cold heart essentially allows your chains of ice to become a rotational ability, while Inexorable assault is a basic passive.

It's possible that inexorable assault could just have obliterate to X% additional frost damage flat, no build up... nothing, similar to DKs trinket for HFC in WOD (which nobody used imao). I like the current iteration, it's somewhat creative and allows for an ok rotation.
WOW Brilliant changes!

I still would like ERW to tick a little more often, or removing Horn of Winter from the CGD since the idea is to speed up the rotation.

Icebound Fortitude’s damage reduction was increased to 30% for both Frost/Unholy specs

Good change but the cooldown still way too high for 30%, I would like to see it at 2 min or having our AMS back to how it was in WoD 50% absorb @ 45sec cooldown.

And please can we get Wraith Walk replaced by a talent the buffs DA?
Great changes; I have a few thoughts.

Glacial Advance 'softly' replacing frost strike is a great idea. However -- WILL YOU MAKE IT NOT COLLIDE WITH TERRAIN!? The #1 reason the ability goes unused isn't because of it's low damage & high cost, but that it's a literal dice roll on if it will hit what you want it to hit.

It's literally as simple as just removing the ice-steps-on-the-floor gimmick, and replacing the entire thing with a frost mage's cone of cold that scales with attack power / applies razorice instead of a slow.

Cold Heart replacing Shattering Strikes -- THANK YOU! I hate both other talents in that row; I love cold heart. 100% bullseye with this one. I hope it'll stay one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game though, as that is what makes it fun in the long run. If it just has the long build up and then does barely more dmg than 2 obliterates, I'll be disappointed.

With Pillar of Frost being back to a damage boosting cooldown, where does that leave Empower Rune Weapon? Still the same as Legion Hungering Rune Weapon but Baseline? Removed? Back to talents?

2h frost. Can you at least acknowledge us asking for it? Even if it's a no. I just want some closure on the question.
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Glacial Advance now costs 30 Runic Power (instead of 1 Rune), has a 6 sec cooldown (down from 15 sec), and also applies Razorice to all enemies hit. Glacial Advance overlapped a lot with Frostscythe in both use and cost, and we’re looking to differentiate it so it can find its own use case.

Could you increase the radius a little bit? Doesn't have to be massive, but it feels overly slim atm.
Makes me want to try out my DK leveling next.
Amazing, I'll definitely be maining frost dk for the start of BFA
Love the changes Just want to say though:

Wouldn't Obliteration now be in a way a downgrade? If you use it when Pillar is on you now need to do 4 Oblits in 4 GCDs to get your pillar to stack faster, where as with Obliteration off it stacks in only 2 GCDs because you used 2 runes each while it is active? Maybe make the new talent give you the 2% for rune spent while it is active instead of the regular 1%? Even then I think the numbers would just break even and you would just be left with pretty much obliteration just makes your oblits cost 1. You should make it so by smashing oblits you are building up higher than if you didn't take obliteration, it would make it appealing as a single target burst as if you stick on the guy your oblits will become more devistating and it would feel like a big 2H oblit once did. Just a thought, I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

ALso, Isn't Cold Heart just better IA for 1 rune with more control? I wish I could use both at the same time I love single target damage, it's what FROST NEEDS TO DO! If I get to you HULK SMASH!

Could you maybe give us a yes or a no on 2H frost coming back, even if it is just cosmetic I miss it so much.
These are actually good changes, Color me impressed
Awesome, now how about adding back Mirror Ball and the FS range? ;)
@seph that GA change is nice but could you make it not get stuck on pebbles n stuff

PoF
Nice it's back and you made it like crusader talent for Ret. However could you increase it back to 1 min if they can include the Lego that does frost damage by 15% while PoF is active. So it all damage by 15% ramping for 15 secs. Also please give back the anti knock back so we don't lose presious time building

Thanks again Seph
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

Right.. So then when is WW getting addressed about the loss of our Fist Of Fury stun in PVP then if your talking about core abilities & their functionalities.
Then again, I dont think I ever saw a post like this about one of WW's "core abilities being removed that were around for so long" such as Tigereye Brew.
06/12/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Resilients
06/12/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Seph
Previous changes to Pillar of Frost have been reverted. While the ability is quite simple in a vacuum (20% damage increase with no other mechanics), there were clearly a lot of players who were uncomfortable with the idea of removing a core ability that’s been around for so long.

Right.. So then when is WW getting addressed about the loss of our Fist Of Fury stun in PVP then if your talking about core abilities & their functionalities.
Then again, I dont think I ever saw a post like this about one of WW's "core abilities being removed that were around for so long" such as Tigereye Brew.
At least WW got their cool down replaced, frost dk lost their ability and gained nothing else in return.
Yasssss! Slay queen!

A step in the right direction. Gib mirror ball back please.

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