[Feedback][Frost DK][Detailed]

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05/25/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Lina
I think one of the main problems with Frost is that only rime procs and obliterates do damage. Currently on live you only press frost strike when you're out of runes, to proc more runes, to press more obliterates. You don't press it because frost strike does damage. This should be fixed, as running on full runic power until all your runes are down feels like a really backwards design.

Another personal problem I have with all DK specs, but frost in particular (due to how slow and melee oriented it is) is in how death grip lost a lot of its value in PvP due to most classes having 2(+) charges on their mobility. Monks, Mages, Demon Hunters and Druids being the main offenders. You literally can't use death grip to counter those classes, because they always have a way to escape it.


Frost Strike does more damage than Obliterate on both Beta and live actually.

You have Roots from Frozen Center and Winter is Coming, which stop Demon hunters, Monks and Warriors from instantly getting away.
With Deaths advance you cannot be slowed under 70% movement speed or 100% if active, and Chains of Ice being a ranged slow for 50% you will eventually catch up to these classes.
Having 2 Death grips would just be silly so Snares/roots are the main tool for frost death knights as they have been since Cataclysm, Which is why Chillblains should make a comeback.
Even if one frost strike does do more damage than one obliterate, the simple fact is that an obliterate + a rime proc does a lot more. So while you're correct on paper, it doesn't pan out that way in actual gameplay. Though granted I do use obliterate belt legendary on my DK so that might skewer my experience.

I'd personally like it if they made death grip simply disable mobility abilities & teleports for 2 seconds. I don't see how 2 grips would be silly (more-so than 2 fel rushes?), but I know that wizards will whine to no end if that ever happens again.
05/25/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Lina
Even if one frost strike does do more damage than one obliterate, the simple fact is that an obliterate + a rime proc does a lot more. So while you're correct on paper, it doesn't pan out that way in actual gameplay. Though granted I do use obliterate belt legendary on my DK so that might skewer my experience.

I'd personally like it if they made death grip simply disable mobility abilities & teleports for 2 seconds. I don't see how 2 grips would be silly (more-so than 2 fel rushes?), but I know that wizards will whine to no end if that ever happens again.

Tested this on Beta on a level Raider's training dummy in orgrimmar all non-critical hits.

One frost strike does about 2.5k MH 1.2k OH = 3.7k
One Obliterate does about 1.2k MH 600OH = 1.8k
One Howling Blast with Rime hits for about 2.6k
One Howling Blast without Rime hits for about 600 Damage.

3.7k is indeed lower than 1.8k + 2.6K = 4.4k
but 3.7k is not lower than 1.8k + 600 = 2.4k

one obliterate has a 45% chance of giving a rime proc so you don't always get a rime proc.

With the honor talent Frozen center, you can grip somebody and root them in place with remorseless winter
With the honor talent Deathchill (which is pretty bad honestly) you apply chains of ice on death grip and root a person by applying a second chains of ice.

Rooting people after you grip them makes most classes less able to get away from you.
Bumpong this, we need more active feedback for frost DK!
Bumping every day until Blizzard responds even with a post containing a period.
Frost 2handed.... please.... :)
05/31/2018 02:17 PMPosted by Zaa
Frost 2handed.... please.... :)


Talents Passive and Spells first. Let's stop the 2h Frost conversation for now please.
Bump
Still no word on anything for the Spec as whole and if the stated changes mentioned over a month ago are just the talent row switches and that is it.

The spec lacks interaction and talents which give gameplay options to give the Frost DK a reason to actually switch talents around or offer a group a utility option as the FDK brings - Zero now to make them even be considered over another class or spec that will do more damage and bring actual utility and options to a group or raid.

You could build a bobbing bird on a key sequence to play FDK literally and you would still do relatively the exact same DPS on a stationary target. This points to a huge flaw in the class spec design wise. Players need to have choices to actually interact or have actual times to press something or do something.

The talent tree lacks structure, design and synergy and we still have actual talents that will never be chosen as they provide nothing of value and are a waste of a limited number of spots.

No actual CC that is reliable and works right now we are the only Melee spec class in the game that does not have an on demand STUN ability baseline or a talent choice that give us one. Abominations Might could be changed to actually do this very easily but it's been left as a ability that have ZERO PvP or even PvE reasons to take due to the RNG trigger tied to it and the fact it's only a daze on players.

At this rate the FDK is going to be the AURA of DAMAGE buff class again in BfA to fix their scaling issues and bring them even up to performing on par with the least performing melee DPS spec for others. Those that don't know what this was in Legion every single large patch cycle FDK was given a Damage Aura Buff to all abilities usually between 20 - 50% damage. So this clearly highlights that the class is not scaling and needs SWEEPING changes to damage, interaction, talent design and other things to fix the scaling and lack of it's consistency through expansions and their patches.
What you will see is something like this.
- BfA Launch
- Week 3 (We have increased FDK damage overall by 20% to bring them inline with other DPS spec)
- First Major Expansion Patch for BfA (We have given FDK a passive 10% haste buff and 15% Damage buff to ensure they stay inline with other DPS specs)

If that alone isn't pointing a massive issue with the current design I am at a loss it's seriously Aura of Passive DPS Balancing to fix a broken spec which really needs a design re-think and overhaul to fix the Scaling and lack of interaction and choices it has.
Hey guys, just wanting to toss in my 2 cents here. I quit playing frost sometime during ToS due to mobility issues and the spec feeling boring and not up to par, but otherwise found it enjoyable during legion.

To me it seems like frost has been suffering not only from things like talent diversity and interesting choices, but also core class and spec fantasy aspects. I realize that this late into beta the core spec fantasy isn't really up for debate anymore, but it's something that's important to me and I'm sure there are other frost DKs who have similar thoughts. Here's a cleaned up list of thoughts/concerns I've piled up:

  • Frost currently feels like a slow and cold warrior, thematically.
  • The effort to make our frost spells feel 'sinister' in comparison to mages works,
    however we lost almost all of the 'Death' from 'Death Knight' in our kit from WoD -> Legion.
  • We are immobile and slow but...dual wield? Clashes hard with spec fantasy.
  • Currently our talents are full of passives that aren't interesting or never swapped out, and will be less swapped since tier bonuses are going away.
  • Rotation is linear between KM procs -> Oblit/Fscythe -> Rime/HB -> FS to dump RP.
  • BoS and HRW should no longer be on the same talent tier now that legendaries are moot.
  • Obliteration feels awful to use due to overcapping resources and being on the GCD. It only speeds up the linear interaction in our rotation, very little decision making involved.
  • Frostscythe is the only active talent we can take that changes our rotation, and it's only use is in heavy AoE situations. Feels bad wasting KM procs on Obliterate accidentally when picking Fscythe.
  • Things to look at:

    Rune system. No choice or thinking involved in spending runes since all runes are now a single type. The only button to get runes back is ERW, on a long CD. I would love to see something like Plague Leech back--the decision to consume diseases on a target and regen a rune felt impactful and promoted interaction between our DoTs and resource regen, and helped feed our main rotation. It felt like I had more control and choice and also helped raise the skill ceiling a bit.

    Diseases. They got separated out into the individual specs for Legion, which is fine thematically. Frost Fever is something that generally just exists now, especially without any of our artifact traits interacting with it anymore. It's a set it and forget it DoT thanks to rime and HB being reapplied so frequently...to me it's like a less annoying version of Enhancements old Searing Totem. I think adding something like Plague Leech back could promote some more interesting gameplay with our disease.

    The talent 'Winter is Coming' is currently self-defeating since the next tick of it would break the root. Consider changing it to WoDs Remorseless Winter talent-a stun on the 5th stack, or at the very least something that doesn't cancel itself out.

    It feels like Frost has lost a lot of complexity with regards to interactions in it's base kit, especially since MoP. Being the simple spec is fine, and there is beauty in simplicity--but I don't think there's any beauty in the current iteration of the spec. Too much is passive and linear depending on KM and Rime procs to dictate the rotation to the point where no thinking is involved, and Obliteration only encourages this loop while speeding it up slightly.

    I hope something changes with Frost, because as of now without our artifact, things are feeling pretty dull and not enjoyable.
    If runes recharge as soon as you use them and not having wait for one group to finish for the next one to recharge. This would help with reducing the downtime.

    Along with Runic emp and corruption
    When emp triggers it has 35% chance to recharge all your runes. Same for corruption.
    The changes will probably be announced to be on hold until a later patch or just next xpac in about a month. Mark my words. If Blizzard makes any valuable changes within 1 week I will literally a shoe. No bamboozle.
    The next Beta build will include updates to Frost Death Knight. There has been a little more iteration since then (details later), but it will have the bulk of the changes, which are mostly focused on adjustments, rearrangements, or replacements for talents. The baseline spec and core rotation hasn’t changed much – Frost remains a fast-paced, proc-based rotation. The goals for the changes include:
    • Consolidate the multiple self-buff cooldowns available
    • Add the artifact active ability to the talent tree
    • Look for opportunities to update/improve the talent tree

    The noteworthy change to the baseline spec is that the self-buff cooldowns have been consolidated:
    • Empower Rune Weapon has become what the Hungering Rune Weapon talent is on live (with tuning adjustments), granting 15% Haste and generating 1 Rune and 5 Runic Power instantly and every 5 sec for 20 sec, on a 2 min cooldown (down from 3 min on live). Now that Empower Rune Weapon is on the global cooldown, the full 6 Runes it instantly provided always felt a bit like you were wasting it – shifting it to resources over time to add to a pretty full rotation made sense.
    • Pillar of Frost has been removed baseline. Since the knockback immunity portion of it was moved to Death’s Advance, Pillar ended up being a pretty bland 20% Strength buff. We’ve renamed the talent Obliteration into Pillar of Frost to keep that name around on the spec.

    The next build you’ll see will be just slightly out of date in regards to the Frost talent tree – the most current version is outlined below. Any talents not described are mostly unchanged.

    Level 56 row: Inexorable Assault, Icy Talons, Shattering Strikes – primarily single-target/constant value

    Inexorable Assault has been redesigned – it now periodically grants a buff (stacks to 5) that causes your next Obliterate to deal additional Frost damage. This additional damage is a flat, separate add to Obliterate’s damage and doesn’t benefit from Killing Machine (you aren’t intended to play around it + Killing Machine). The talent is mostly passive, but with the added bonus of providing some benefit at the start of an encounter or when you’re off-target.

    Level 57 row: Runic Attenuation, Murderous Efficiency, Horn of Winter – this row adds resources/speeds up to the rotation

    Runic Attenuation now generates 3 Runic Power on a more controllable procs per minute system, instead of generating 1 Runic Power on autoattacks (which didn’t have a good way for us to tune it). It should still feel like pretty consistent resource generation.

    Level 58 row: Winter is Coming, Asphyxiate, Blinding Sleet – crowd control

    Asphyxiate has replaced Abomination’s Might in the talent tree, and now all 3 Death Knight specs have access to this single-target stun cooldown. Abomination’s Might wasn’t very reliable and wasn’t even always desirable as a random single-target proc stun.

    Level 60 row: Avalanche, Gathering Storm, Glacial Advance – primarily AOE/scales up with #targets

    Avalanche has been redesigned to trigger from casting Howling Blast with Rime active, and is intended to be the simple passive option on the row.

    Level 75 row: Permafrost, Wraith Walk, Death Pact

    Death Pact has replaced the version of Inexorable Assault from live, giving both damage specs access to this survivability talent.

    Level 90 row: Freezing Fog, Frostscythe, Frostwyrm’s Fury – primarily AOE/scales up with #targets

    Freezing Fog is planned to be unchanged from live. The version you’re going to see soon includes an additional mechanic (which is probably being removed), that was added in order to make it fit better when it was on a different talent row.

    Frostwyrm’s Fury is the artifact active, Sindragosa’s Fury, with a slightly different name so that it doesn’t sound too similar to Breath of Sindragosa. Its cooldown is 3 min instead of 5 min (like the artifact active) – a shorter cooldown as a talent feels better to be usable more often and allows it to be better tuned against its competitors without requiring a large damage reduction in PvP due to being a huge single damage event.

    Level 100 row: Icecap, Pillar of Frost, Breath of Sindragosa – Damage modifiers/works in most situations

    Icecap now affects Empower Rune Weapon instead of Pillar of Frost, reducing its cooldown by 3 sec (pending tuning) when it triggers.

    Obliteration (the talent on live) has been renamed Pillar of Frost as mentioned earlier, and has the same mechanics on the same 1.5 min cooldown.

    Breath of Sindragosa is mostly unchanged. However, worth noting is that its 2 min cooldown lines up better with the new Empower Rune Weapon, which now also has a 2 min cooldown.

    Note: Runic Empowerment has been tuned down from 1.8%->1.5%. The spec often just had way too much resources to spend. This is the spec’s primary pacing controller and we’ll continue adjusting it in the future to what feels good.

    Thanks for all the continued feedback.

    06/05/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Moonblight
    The changes will probably be announced to be on hold until a later patch or just next xpac in about a month. Mark my words. If Blizzard makes any valuable changes within 1 week I will literally a shoe. No bamboozle.
    FINALLY!

    Here are some thoughts.

    06/06/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Seph
    Level 75 row: Permafrost, Wraith Walk, Death Pact

    Can we please get rid of Wraith Walk? I'd much rather have something that buffs DA than having to pick this awkward spell again.

    Also, is there something being done to improve PVE survivability? DK feels really squishy right now without the artifact traits.

    06/06/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Seph
    Icecap now affects Empower Rune Weapon instead of Pillar of Frost, reducing its cooldown by 3 sec (pending tuning) when it triggers.

    Obliteration (the talent on live) has been renamed Pillar of Frost as mentioned earlier, and has the same mechanics on the same 1.5 min cooldown.

    Icecap and Obliteration will never be picked again with the synergy right now between BoS and ERW. Icecap reseting ERW is bad, it just leads to resource overflow same problem from the old HRW. Pillar of Frost as the old Obliteration is such a bland CD, is it possible to add something else to it maybe bake the old effect into it.
    ASK AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE, MY DEATHKNIGHTARINOS!
    well interesting

    Inexorable Assault has been redesigned – it now periodically grants a buff (stacks to 5) that causes your next Obliterate to deal additional Frost damage. This additional damage is a flat, separate add to Obliterate’s damage and doesn’t benefit from Killing Machine (you aren’t intended to play around it + Killing Machine). The talent is mostly passive, but with the added bonus of providing some benefit at the start of an encounter or when you’re off-target.

    ahhh bummer no km makes oblit do extra frost damage

    why is PoF being removed base and it wasnt bland
    06/05/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Moonblight
    The changes will probably be announced to be on hold until a later patch or just next xpac in about a month. Mark my words. If Blizzard makes any valuable changes within 1 week I will literally a shoe. No bamboozle.


    I guess you have to a shoe
    06/06/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Octopuses
    06/05/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Moonblight
    The changes will probably be announced to be on hold until a later patch or just next xpac in about a month. Mark my words. If Blizzard makes any valuable changes within 1 week I will literally a shoe. No bamboozle.


    I guess you have to a shoe
    Seph any chance for glyph to 2h?
    also Seph WW is bleh and we just get DA like it was in WoD

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