Expand the talent "tree"

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
If I could, personally I would go back to WotLK talent system but that is not the popular opinion. I see an opportunity here though. In me figuring out why I dislike the current over the old setup it really came down to size/scale/dopamine. I fear at the rate things are going, we will be left with a Diablo 3, 6 button action bar.

In BfA the entirety of leveling your character 1-120, you get 7 talents. That is way too few and spread out(some one say pruned?). You can gain 14 levels and not gain a single thing. Thanks to level scaling, you never gain more power. It does not feel good.

In WotLK you get a point every level to put toward something even if oh so small and minuscule, it was something(dopamine). 5,10,15 levels later you actually were gaining power(some one say progression?). It felt good, I felt more powerful with every level.

My suggestion not including going back to WotLK style trees; the concept after the latest round of pruning is bringing a lot of the abilities back to the character. Take the current tree... and double it at a minimum. Instead of 7 rows you get 14+ even if some of the rows are somewhat filler passive choices that buff certain abilities. You have a massive bank of no longer used artifact/set/relics/talents.

At a minimum, you should give us a 110 and 120 row from the last 2 xpacs of zero character progression. I already expect to be stripped of all my azerite progression at the end of BfA and be no more capable than a lvl 100...
What you all think? Or are we putting all our faith in Azerite armor?
I also would like to see the return of the old talent system. I'm leveling a mage right now and some levels I get nothing and I feel there isn't a power gain on some levels and waiting for 10 levels for the next talent T_T
I don't fore see blizz returning the old system, looking forward to vanilla servers.
The old talent trees were an illusion of choice. There was very little variances (if any at all) between cookie-cutter specs.

I think the new talent system is much better--it's just the talents themselves that are the problem right now. Blizzard hasn't figured out how to make talents truly compete with one another on their respective rows yet, usually leading to talents being set-and-forget.

I do think there should've been another row added for BfA though.
06/17/2018 11:21 PMPosted by Kruzý
If I could, personally I would go back to WotLK talent system but that is not the popular opinion. I see an opportunity here though. In me figuring out why I dislike the current over the old setup it really came down to size/scale/dopamine. I fear at the rate things are going, we will be left with a Diablo 3, 6 button action bar.

In BfA the entirety of leveling your character 1-120, you get 7 talents. That is way too few and spread out(some one say pruned?). You can gain 14 levels and not gain a single thing. Thanks to level scaling, you never gain more power. It does not feel good.

In WotLK you get a point every level to put toward something even if oh so small and minuscule, it was something(dopamine). 5,10,15 levels later you actually were gaining power(some one say progression?). It felt good, I felt more powerful with every level.

My suggestion not including going back to WotLK style trees; the concept after the latest round of pruning is bringing a lot of the abilities back to the character. Take the current tree... and double it at a minimum. Instead of 7 rows you get 14+ even if some of the rows are somewhat filler passive choices that buff certain abilities. You have a massive bank of no longer used artifact/set/relics/talents.

At a minimum, you should give us a 110 and 120 row from the last 2 xpacs of zero character progression. I already expect to be stripped of all my azerite progression at the end of BfA and be no more capable than a lvl 100...

All those points you put in were passives that are base line baked into the abilities now, so you still gain them just much sooner. You had a choice, yes, but there were specific builds for every class barring a point or 2. If you didn't adhere to the optimal build you suffered. Is that an issue now? Well yes, but at least you aren't loosing G (which was a big deal back then) and also having to re-populate every point when you reset. I do think we need at least another row of talents. That's a big part of the issue now, 20 levels gained and they are trying to balance power increase with the same amount of talents from wod. Maybe if we had another row they could leave good talents how they are while adding new ones to increase power and variety.
06/18/2018 01:08 AMPosted by Dumb
The old talent trees were an illusion of choice. There was very little variances (if any at all) between cookie-cutter specs.


A popular meme. But an incorrect one. There was customization in the BC trees. But sadly a lot of players at the time didn't want to think about their characters, so just copied whatever some guide online said.

The joy of the original system was being able to go into 2 or 3 trees depending on what you wanted. The real death blow to customization was the Cataclysm version, which FORCED you to go all the way to the bottom of one tree before you could put anything in the other trees.

At the time, Blizzard said that forcing this would lead to greater player choice. Which of, course, was absurd.
06/18/2018 02:27 AMPosted by Tewa
A popular meme. But an incorrect one. There was customization in the BC trees. But sadly a lot of players at the time didn't want to think about their characters, so just copied whatever some guide online said.
Oh boy. Were you the type of person who was against theorycrafting, and came up with your own builds to make sure the world knew you weren't "one of the losers following guides"?
06/18/2018 02:29 AMPosted by Dumb
06/18/2018 02:27 AMPosted by Tewa
A popular meme. But an incorrect one. There was customization in the BC trees. But sadly a lot of players at the time didn't want to think about their characters, so just copied whatever some guide online said.
Oh boy. Were you the type of person who was against theorycrafting, and came up with your own builds to make sure the world knew you weren't "one of the losers following guides"?


No, but I remember our Warlocks changing their specs for different fights depending on their role. I also remember talking to other Druid tanks at the time about what talents were best. I never took Feral Charge, for example, and just learned to tank without it. Which is why I've tended to not take Wild Charge under the new talent system (which some find strange).

The old talent system only had 3 problems. One was that some of the talents were just silly (like the Arcane tree talent that increased wand damage). The second was that there were some tiers where the choice was PvP talent or non-PvP talent, which wasn't much of a choice unless you regularly did both. The third was that they ended it too soon. (The Cataclysm system was so obviously horrible that I assume they deliberately tanked it so they would have an excuse to replace it with something totally different.)

<more thoughts>
Thinking about Warlocks got me to reminisce more. I played my Warlock a lot more back then, mostly in PvP, and I remember the different ways that you could do that. The "drain tank" was the easiest and very popular, but there were other builds that were also quite strong.

Remember the "three-minute mage" build? Heh. Good times.
06/18/2018 01:08 AMPosted by Dumb
The old talent trees were an illusion of choice. There was very little variances (if any at all) between cookie-cutter specs.

I think the new talent system is much better--it's just the talents themselves that are the problem right now. Blizzard hasn't figured out how to make talents truly compete with one another on their respective rows yet, usually leading to talents being set-and-forget.

I do think there should've been another row added for BfA though.


nope they were a choice, if you weren't lazy. I enjoyed spending time theory crafting the talent calculators but most people were sheep and followed the trends. There were always ways to finagle personal play styles and make self improvements.
06/18/2018 02:39 AMPosted by Wardline
nope they were a choice, if you weren't lazy. I enjoyed spending time theory crafting the talent calculators but most people were sheep and followed the trends. There were always ways to finagle personal play styles and make self improvements.
I played a rogue, and the theorycrafting community on rogue was insanity back then. You had to be an absolute moron to think you knew better than the tons of math that was being done on those talents.

Good for you for "not being lazy" and swapping around some talents sometimes with what I assume was no math whatsoever, and just "gut feeling" specs.

06/18/2018 02:34 AMPosted by Tewa
Thinking about Warlocks got me to reminisce more. I played my Warlock a lot more back then, mostly in PvP, and I remember the different ways that you could do that. The "drain tank" was the easiest and very popular, but there were other builds that were also quite strong.

Remember the "three-minute mage" build? Heh. Good times.
I don't know what your "back then" was, but assuming you're talking about BC and sl/sl locks, yeah that was silly good. The POM mage was a vanilla thing, I still remember watching warcraftmovies of this one gnome mage back then.
The biggest mistake made this expansion was the choice not to add a new talent row at 120.

Closely followed by the choice to put all those abilities back on the GCD (made doubly worse by the transparent excuses given), and the fact that they started serious character development too late in the beta to give every specialisation the going over that it requires and deserves.
I loves the old talent calculator, but know that in fact wasnt much to choose, as some builds was mandatory.

If anything, it could be cool to evaluate the old talent system, into a new version with more choices, and a little more depth in each talent spent.
It kind of chaps me a bit just the thought of going into a 3rd expansion still with only 7 talent rows... not expanding. It feels lazy.
I would've been fine with the new talent system, if half of the talents weren't garbage. And if we got 110 and 120 talents ofc.
The old talent trees were an illusion of choice. There was very little variances (if any at all) between cookie-cutter specs.


So are the new ones. This isn’t even really an issue that should be brought up because no matter what customization they have it’s just gonna be an “illusion of choice.”
Blizzard needs to work backwards from "how much DPS do we want" and then create talents for play style and fake the math so that if you play well you get the required DPS.

Not work forwards from "what does this talent do" >lots of hand waving and barely understood math that requires a million simulation runs< and get some random DPS out the back end.
06/18/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Kruzý
What you all think? Or are we putting all our faith in Azerite armor?


My personal opinion is that the illusion of choice still creates the feeling of choice.

For example, I enjoyed putting talent points into a specific weapon type, and then having that weapon type do more damage. It was not only fun to get a new weapon, but it felt rewarding to put the points in. Now, weapons are just kind of all the same I guess, and in many ways, much more restrictive than they used to be.

I guess that's my way of saying the old talent trees sort of provide the same cookie cutter builds and decisions the current iteration does, but that said, it felt more engaging and dynamic, and that's a good thing.
06/18/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Vindecaytor
I would've been fine with the new talent system, if half of the talents weren't garbage. And if we got 110 and 120 talents ofc.


Agreed. I always felt like that's how the artifact weapon should have worked. Maybe you should have only been given enough talent points to fill half the weapon or something, and Blizz could have provided more interesting choices that created specific built types. (I.e. aoe v. ST; Poison v. Bleed) that sort of thing.
The pvp talent trees should just be added to the regular one.

Always having them in warmode and battlegrounds then suddenly not being able to use them in dungeons and raids is terrible.

A lot of them are quite useful for things other than killing other players.

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