End of Legion: PVP Systems Feedback

General Discussion
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With Legion coming to a close we thought we might try something a little different and collect some specific feedback on things. We've now covered Mythic+, and Mythic Raiding so its time to change it up!

This week's topic is going to be about PVP Systems over the course of Legion. BUT WAIT. While its easy to lump class feedback into the umbrella of PVP that's not what we're looking for here. We're looking for feedback more centered on PVP's functioning systems. This includes things like gearing, Arena and Battleground maps, rewards, rating systems, etc.

Why the clarification to exclude Class Feedback?
This is because if we didn't this feedback post would be almost impossible to read or evaluate. Those types of issues are far better as one offs that we can evaluate within those situational examples.

Where is X topic?
Don't worry as we have a list of topics that we plan on going down and its probably on the list. Every week will be a new topic so just give us a moment and we'll get there.

What Topics have you covered already?
We've now covered Mythic+, and Mythic Raiding.

Also a friendly note that just because you see it here doesn't mean it will be changed or added - and this topic is not an indication of future feature development.
This post just got a lot less useful. There are non-balance issues that are still class related like a general lack of utility these days, homogenized defensives (everyone has their 2-3 minute cooldown), and casting is still clunky in pvp/kicks could use an updated function.
In past expansions my game play looked like this:

1. Ding max level.
2. Grind blue gear via honor in BG's.
3. Grind purple gear in Arenas.

Had a blast, very fun.

In Legion I went to Argus and stayed there. No need for PvP since the grind was still really hard and the rewards were lackluster. Now I have gear that allows me to solo anything in the PvE world short of a world boss. There is no incentive to PvP since I know I'm not a 2k+ rated player.

I prefer the old method, but I'm fine with the Legion method too. If you expect me to submit to the PvP grind, the opportunity cost for skipping PvE gearing needs to be worth it.

And lastly, Templates are and were a good idea. Even playing field in PvP or GTFO.

Edit to add: SOLOQUE for rated PvP is a dream for a player like me. LFG is a toxic mess full of nerd rage and when I have 1 hour to play I hate spending 45 mins of that trying to find someone chill to group with.
Taking away the carrot on the stick for gear IMO, especially not being able to target gear was an issue. Also I can clear heroic antorus with my eyes closed, but I have to be 2200 rating in pvp for equivalent gear - makes it not even close in skill requirement unless something titanforges.
Pvp is no fun anymore. Gear is way too bad to justify dragging my healer in there and going through one of the most difficult pvp x packs to heal that I have ever played. Constant cc and pressure on heals from dps with way too many tricks available. Makes more sense to afk in lfr (or normal, w/e) but all raiding is 10x easier than pvp, (especially for healers) w/ better and more reliable rewards. Weekly 1 pieceof gear is broken trash and discourages you from playing. The weekly is bad and the random rewards are all terrible artifacts.

If I want to pvp as a healer I need to pve so I can get the gear to not get rekt by a 900 ww monk. Then I get gear that is worse than my old gear as a reward, get higher rating, and have to go do more pve for gear to keep pvping? No thanks.

Why does killing a boss give 930 gear, but killing the guy who killed the boss gives 920. How does that make sense?

Rating resets and short seasons are nice but bad gear has kept new people from getting involved.

Stat templates are the worst thing blizzard has ever done, bring back resilience.

Bring back the vendor or keep some obliterate mechanic
Overall there was no character progression in Legion, it felt bland and not even worth touching. Some classes feel like you can never touch or do anything to as another class feels very frustrating. When something leads to a frustrating or un fun experience of course people are not going to play it. I don't know if this goes about character balance and blah blah, but getting rooted as a melee is probably one of the most annoying things ever, it last forever.

Get rid of templates, give us something like resilience back and let there be a cross over of pvp / pve gear that can be used, also the lack of trinkets is insanely lame. I'm not saying let legendaries become a thing, but lets not be excluding Azerite traits and stuff in pvp, your just ruining character progression, make people want to play the game and actually play it, reward them.

So over all I'd just say pvp in legion wasn't rewarding, no character progression, not fun, and just lead to a bad experience.
I didn't participate in organized PvP, but my experience with the WQs was enough to bore me to tears.

Towers: *Obnoxiously loud snoring*
FFA zones: These would have been slightly interesting if it wasn't for the basic fact that Tank roles were demigods.

I don't mean X or Y classes as tanks were demigods, I mean all tank classes were demigods. Even I went prot to capitalize on the cheese at times. As bad as I was, it still took 3-5 people to temporarily bring me down.

I also encountered significantly more PvP at the Tower zones from people with the Aviana-Talon-item-thingy. Outside the first month I don't think I ever saw the opposite faction at a Tower.
Just my thoughts as a summary of Legion PvP

World PvP was an unbalanced mess for the majority of Legion up until Argus with absurd Legos one shotting other players lol

Warden Towers were a nice way to let PvE players get some PvP rewards without dedicating all their time into Battlegrounds.

And the Classes (while you didn't really want feedback) were suffering from the great pruning and changes so a lot of specs remained nearly unusable for the most of the expac.

I'm not taking into account the changes being made in BFA, this was just a summary of my Legion experience.
I thought the honor system sounded really good in theory, but in practice, having to earn 50 levels just to play my class optimally felt like more of a hindrance to play other characters, rather than a reward for playing with them.

The prestige part was really cool, earning cosmetic rewards for gaining levels was a lot of fun. I wish it had been account wide from the start, so I could earn the rewards in any of my toons equally, but over all I thought it was a good system.
Does anyone remember the days of infinite CC chains on every class? I do, and at the time I hated it. But now in Legion, I believe I would prefer these long cc chains to double melee doing way too much damage in 3s. Its not exactly an issue of class balance just a lack of cc on most classes, if melee had more cc you could severely tone down their damage and pair them with more casters because if I caster does not have a peeling class for them they will typically flop in 3s at lower rating.

This flopping discourages healers from queueing, and lesser experienced players from continuing in pvp because they auto lose to popular double melee comps.

My personal next major issue with PvP is the gearing system. PLEASE make gear rewards better again. My personal favorites were if you had a higher rating you could earn elite PvP gear that was better than the standard gear you could buy, which leads me to the next issue please bring back PvP vendors. RNG gearing from arena is so unrewarding. Just this week I capped on my rogue in 2s. Got a 925 leg upgrade, equipped it, capped in 3s and got the EXACT same piece and then capped in RBGs and got a piece of gear that was lower ilvl than what I already had. That felt extremely unrewarding.

*Edit* Personally hated stat templates, I like my gear feeling like gear and upgrades are barely noticeable in PvP. Drop the templates and bring back resil would be my biggest wish for PvP.
Also, why are all the top raid dps also really solid in pvp? Hybrid tax has been dead for years, but now they get a hybrid subsidy?? Stop tunneling on raid sims and balance the game all around. I should not go top the charts on a raid and then go pwn the world in pvp, why play any class but the few that rule the entire game? At least classic you had to pick one to be good at
Less a specific class comment but more a general 'issue' across the board for all of Legion is that healing as a role has been miserable this entire expansion.

This is as core a part of the PvP system as any gear/honor/rating issue IMO because a fundamental role is slowly but surely becoming extinct as fewer and fewer people want to participate in such misery.

The reasons:

1. Damage is way too easy to dish out by mashing PvE rotations.

2. Interrupts and pseudo interrupts are out of control.

3. Melee mobility makes peeling much more difficult unless you're one of the blessed classes.

No amount of gearing systems, rating fixes, or new maps will assuage the fundamental feeling of the actual experience itself not being fun.
Biggest complaint was the reward system, and the handling of elite mogs and gear. I can't speak for everyone. But I can speak for me.

I play pvp in order to collect time sensitive things. I love it. It's my favorite aspect of collecting in this game. Not mounts, not pets, but that time sensitive armor and what not.

I don't mind having to work for things, and in previous expansions, there was very little in the way of an RNG factor. You dinged max level, and week one, you went in on a fairly even playing field to try and collect gear via conquest and such. You had a targeted upgrade system, where you could purchase what'd help you most, not just in one field, but in all fields.

That changed significantly, and in all truth, I hated it. I really wish I could have just bought my elite pieces. Instead, for months, we sat here hoping RNG would be kind to us and give us our mog pieces so we didn't have to wait for the season to end.

I had been above 2k in Legion season 3 fairly early on. I didn't complete my Legion S3/S4 elite mog till the LAST WEEK before S5 released. That shouldn't be the case. And it was fairly disheartening, especially when you guys made it so we couldn't even have hope for elite mog pieces above 2k from random drops. We had to hope from weekly caps, and only weekly caps.

Which means - and you don't need me to do the math, but I will.

There are 14 slots. 17 if you have 3 different relic types. 17 slots, and 9 of those slots (counting relics, neck, rings, trinkets, and bracers) have nothing to do with the transmog at all, which is (as I mentioned earlier) something that drives me, and based on the forums (which exploded here and there) a lot of other pvp'ers.

I'd not like a repeat of this. That's my feedback. I'm just one person, but it's my standpoint.
There is gonna be a lot of feedback about pvp gearing so I'll just go to another point.

The prestige rewards system (not the original but the one we currently have were you no longer lose your talents) was pretty cool. You know what you were getting after doing x amount of honor grind. A lot of people (even people who don't pvp at all) put some effort at the end of the expansion to catch up and reach that max prestige level and get all the cool rewards that you put there for us (some feel like not worth it but in the end it was cool to get the mounts / toys).

Now with BfA you are going to change that to a pure honor level grind which is pretty much the same. The problem is that, at least at the moment, 90% of the rewards are the same so, if you did your grind and already have all those you are gonna get pretty much nothing during BfA. It's not gonna feel like you wasted your time during Legion cause you actually got your rewards and use them for a long time, but it's gonna feel horrible during BfA do to pretty much the same grind you did during Legion for NOTHING.

I know that at this point, creating more mounts/toys/pets/xmogs to the new honor system is probably not gonna happen but maybe you can consider making some of the honor (or all) we got during Legion to just move to BfA system so we start like maybe halfway of the total honor levels. I think there are 500 honor levels, maybe if you are capped during BfA you can start at 250 honor or so, so you start getting the new rewards and no rewards you already have (or some kinda useless reward like AP/gold to replace them if you already have x mount or toy).

At the beginning I assumed this will work this way but when you copy your characters to beta you start from honor level 1 so I'm not sure what are your plans in here.

Please consider not have all the people who is currently prestige capped feel bad for a whole expansion, specially the ones who don't actually enjoy pvp and just did a grind for the cool rewards :)

side question: why is this in gd?
This has been the worst era in WoW PvP for Casters. The prune stripped too many defensive abilities, including gap openers, escapes, disarms, and passive damage reduction, as well as offensive instant/cast while moving abilities. CC-blanket nerfs also really hurt what we have left (like Fear). Additionally, Legion introduced even more stuns, snares, gap-closers, overpowered defensives (like AMS Dispel), and pseudo-interrupts for melee, and their damage was buffed instead of tuned around their new infinite uptime. Caster damage is incredibly abysmal in comparison (with the exception of Warlocks), and the benefit of dealing big damage due to the drawback of having to stand still and cast is gone. We can't even juke because of the insane amount of interrupts.

Melee are too strong and there are no drawbacks to playing any single melee spec.

Sadly it looks like it will only get worse at this point for BfA.
pvp lootboxes not compelling and not fair

the old honor/conquest system gave EVERYONE the exact same gear options at a minimum pace, felt good

rock solid constant progression and easy to switch to alts, felt good

systems that sped up honor/conquest point acquisition later in a tier made that feel good as well

getting BIS pvp gear from pvp felt good

the fact that EVERYONE could get BIS pvp gear, just a bit longer for the lower ratings, felt good

having to get pve gear for pvp feels bad

having pve gear 100x easier to acquire feels bad

not being able to use trinkets or set bonuses in pvp feels bad

having raiders 100% dominate world pvp feels bad

having pvp gear be better for pvp than pve gear feels good

getting progression from every bg or arena match, regardless of win or lose, feels good

scaling feels good, templates feel restrictive as all heck

vendors with certain gear feels good, lootboxes that drop 20 duplicates or never drop the item I need feels bad

huge amounts of bad luck protection feels good (i.e. vendors with gear, not lootboxes), full RNG makes me avoid the game

pvp gearing taking longer than pve gearing feels bad

adding spectacular cosmetic rewards for each season, achievable by casual play, would be awesome

being in stuck in landslide losses draining up to 15 minutes of my free time feels bad, really bad, especially with no reward for spending time in the activity

dealing with scripted off-GCD abilities feels bad, really bad

having my time wasted versus premades feels bad, really bad

having a mercy rule would feel good for waste of time matches

getting filled into a landslide loss feels bad

cosmetic rewards every 100 rating feels great, as long as they are more than color swaps

the prestige rewards are incredibly boring and uncompelling. Need mounts, significant cosmetics, meaningful gold chunks (not trivial like now), titles. Have never felt motivated to prestige for the rewards.
I've played since vanilla and never posted before, haha. As a vanilla legionnaire, I can definitely say legion had no pvp character progression. I enjoy a variety of classes, and one aspect i enjoy is gearing up and then moving onto another character. My biggest complaint is PvP gearing, lack of vendor or currency, the obliterate was totally unrewarding. Other issue is the ease you are outgeared by pve players which I feel did affect world PvP. Thanks!
I have some feedback on the World Quest PVP system. I was disappointed in the Warden Tower Missions...there labelled as PvP with and honor reward, but 99% of the time there was no PVP whatsoever. It was just go to this tower, become flagged for PVP and kill NPCs and that was it. Wheres the PVP in those tower quests? There might be one player from the opposing faction there to gank, but i think I only encountered that a handful of times. There was no incentive for the other faction to go over there and do PVP combat.

I would have loved if there was a PVP world quest that actually had you to go to the tower and actually defended it.

The free for all quests were not really that fun to me. It didn't really make much sense. Most of the time I saw people team up and gang up on the other players that were not in groups. So basically it really wasn't a free for all it was just team battles. If people are going to team up for those things might as well make it a alliance vs horde event.

The PVP events I would love to see back in, would be the world events such as the ones back in Burning Crusade. For example, taking the towers in hellfire peninsula...that was fun and unique. Terrokar forest also had a tower event too that you could do every few hours and correct if im wrong but I believe one of them gave a reputation buff and I think a XP buff for people in the area. AND dont forget good ol Halaa! I had some amazing adventures taking Halaa back in the day. Halaa got you marks if you killed other players I believe(Its been awhile bear with me) that you could buy mounts and stuff. I would love to see the return of something like Halaa.
Overall gearing

Why did everything have vers on it? Really not interesting to get gear that is only useful on a handful of specs. PvP gear was never going to be better than PvE gear in a world where tier bonuses and real trinkets existed. The accessory slots were the worst offenders since they could only roll vers main stat+off stat and never two non-vers stats.

Players that raid also have the opportunity to coin bosses in the same raid multiple times (i.e. running Kin multiple times on H to coin an acrid) whereas arena rewards are locked to once per bracket. Not really a huge deal but I think rolling for gear was just generally more exciting in PvE than PvP.

Honor WQs

IMO honor WQs were a terrible idea. Maybe they introduced players to "PvP" but in reality a lot of players you see have never done arena, more than a handful of rated or random battlegrounds, have less than 2k honorable kills but are prestige level 5-10+ because they just do the WQs. Doesn't seem like there is much incentive to do those activities when the 3 warden towers rewarded 900 honor+an extra 500 from the FFA ones.

Random battlegrounds: Not matching number of healers was intensely awful. The item level of the gear dropped from random battlegrounds should have been increased to at least Argus WQ gear ilvl since they usually take at least twice as long as a daily heroic, you can lose (meaning you aren't guaranteed the essences)

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