End of Legion: PVP Systems Feedback

General Discussion
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06/13/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Byrhtnoth
I'll keep working on it, but it looks to me like the primary problem right now is the Reward problem. PvP isn't rewarding enough right now--for anyone. Good players don't get more powerful (better gear). Bad players don't get . . . anything. This is the number one problem. It's also the easier problem to fix

So, Rewards:

Design Considerations
There are several Design Considerations when it comes to Rewards, including:
    Reward Types
    Reward Accessibility
    Reward Uniqueness
    Reward Quality, all of which pour into your
    Reward Structure.


In Legion, you kept the same approach to rewards at the the top end (Glad rewards, titles, mounts, etc) while introducing some pretty dramatic changes to how gear was awarded and also to the overall reward structure with the introduction of prestige.

Gear
As for gear, two problems I'm seeing: Reward Quality (primary problem), and Reward Accessibility (secondary). Basically the gear sucks terribly compared to PvE gear that's available at much less effort, and it's an RNG fest whether you get the piece you want/need. Increasing the quality of PvP gear rewards seems necessary to me. I would also make it more predictably accessible--not more commonly accessible, more predictably accessible.

Prestige Rewards
I think this was a good, creative attempt at building an award structure that balanced all your design considerations (Type, Quality, Accessibility, Uniqueness) in a way that was balanced across the playerbase--both the casuals and the hardcore.

A couple of problems, though, some of which you've already started to fix in BfA:
    Reward Accessibility: Most of these awards were too accessible in that they didn't actually require PvP. I have probably two prestige levels just from pushing the button in my class hall on the 500 honor rumble quests. Tens of thousands more honor from PvEing in the tower quests and other rumbles. Being so easy to get, they drive less actual PvP than they could
    Reward Uniqueness: Two things here. Grinding on multiple toons gets me the same exact award again, since we're talking account-wide things like titles, mounts, and pets . . . there's no benefit. Also, because they're easy to get, they're not particularly rare.

Bottom line, PvP rewards should require actual PvP.

There's more to be said, but I would think about rewards for lower rating tiers in rated content, and I would give more total-win rewards that a casual could grind out in a season, even in unrated play. 500 unrated arenas wins a so-and-so. The "Win the Four WQ Rumbles 20 Times Each" Achievement and Mount was the perfect approach--except I could win it by simply pushing the button in my class hall.
06/12/2018 05:52 PMPosted by Bynir


I like the brawl system but things I would like to see:
- more iteration or design motivations on maps (eg. making NPCs interactable in Shado-Pan Showdown, preventing new participants joining in the arena maps when someone leaves, guards buffed in Tarren Mill, certain classes in the Warsong where the flag is at the tunnel entrance were way too powerful to name a few examples)
- increase frequency. It's not fun having to wait 3 months for a map you enjoy
- would like to see more maps based on player feedback: Arathi Blizzard has been universally praised, so more like this in terms of scenic chanhes (Spring AV could be pretty!)

[/quote]

Thinking about this some more, if we know Arathi Blizzard is one of the more loved brawls, why not just promote it to a permanent battleground? Adds more battlegrounds while also clearing up the brawl rotation. I'd see it as a similar setup to Warsong and Twin Peaks.
I like pvp templates, and I like being able to do just fine without grinding out arena and rbgs. Do we want to go back to people in bgs with 250k hp vs people with 500k health screaming at each other? You know, where you tried to gear up in bgs and people told you to go do ASHRAN YOU MORON and get some gear, and then if you went to Ashran you had people tell you to DO RANDOM BGS YOU IDIOT. No thanks, that was cancer. It was so bad I had someone freak out on me just because I had them targeted assuming I was inspecting their gear.

The honor system was fine other than being at a disadvantage until you have all your skills. Let's not gate skills. Working towards honor levels and rewards was sweet though.

World pvp though, ugh. MoP was bad. You could have the best pvp gear (550) and have a raider (580) destroy you in 3 globals. Legion? EVEN WORSE. You can lose 85% of your health in a single spell by someone not even geared better than you. You can practically get one-shot by someones stupid legendary. I use to do wpvp ALL THE TIME. Legion? Not at all. I mean, unless I want to piss myself off once or twice then swear it off for a few months again.

Oh and mobility, hello? What happened? Remember when BoS was spammable rogues, remember that? That was silly. Now so many classes can disappear over the hillside like it's nothing. Warriors oh look he's 1,000 yards away instantly. Demon hunters, cross the entire map. You gave DK's a WRAITH WALK mobilty? Paladins have a talent that lets them instantly mount up? Ok well that one is short lived so not that bad but still. Warriors, monks, dk's, paladins, DH's, so much fun watching them get around faster than a character like my druid who can literally turn into a CHEETAH.

And hm. I'd love a wee bit of complexity back in some classes. I love fire mage. I LOVE frost mage. Disc priest is pretty good but some flavors of defense back would be awesome (spectral guise, psyfiend). Resto druid requiring some heal tracking like in WoD would be great. I WANT to keep life bloom rolling! Crazy, I know!! Hm. yeah.
I feel like a successful system in World of Warcraft needs to be 2 of the 3 following things:
Fun
Rewarding
Challenging
Trading cooldowns isn’t very fun, and neither is sitting in aoe stuns for half a game. It appears those are being brought in check so that’s a good thing. Pvp is not rewarding. However if you are playing at a cr that is roughly your skill level, it should be challenging. So we need, in a perfect world, PVP to be fun and more rewarding. However you could probably see a large upswing in participation if it was just more fun or more rewarding. A big barrier to the fun part is LFG, which there have been plenty of threads about that, same goes for rewards. Just something to think about.
to me it feels like you went out of your way to make world pvp not fun.
The reward for Arena was too low across the board:
Gear: you are better pugging heroic raid than pvping at 2k. I contrast this with mythic + which I pretty much did only for the gear.
AP: Pretty much any source is better.
Honor: Your best bet is world quests, next is battlegrounds. I have guildies that have done 0 actual pvp that are a higher prestige level than me. There is no pvp at the pvp towers.

The ladder rating calculator tool is great. I find it useful.

Gearing: I like how gear ilevel is just a % change. I played a warrior in Wrath. I did not like having to wear very specific pieces of pve gear.

Season specific 2k achievements: I love it, I would like it if there were other ones for other seasons. It let me tell if someone had anything approaching recent experience.

Brawls: I don't love all of them, the mass arena and southshore especially, but I really like the concept.
I'm going to focus my feedback on the 2 systems that had me most excited for PvP but imo fell drastically short of their potential: Honor Talents and Stat Templates.

As someone who alts a lot, the stat template was a dream come true. No more getting rofl stomped by people because gear. It was super fun to be able to hop on a new 110 and just go pvp with my only hindrance being honor talents. I could generally hold my own against more geared people but in season 7 I feel like I can finally feel the difference between my geared toons and a fresh one. The only part about them that sucked was how imbalanced wpvp became. I also like how there were really small 1-5% percent changes (still would like to see buffs instead of just nerfing fotm specs) during new seasons and patches but it got reallly stale after Antorus because balance changes stopped. Overall, I think the Dev team achieved their goal with this but it definately wasn't perfect.

My biggest hope and let down bar none was the honor talent system. I had dreams of getting the utilty I needed as a Ret like emacipate or Long arm or even Pursuit back. They gave us the same shpeel they've been toating about for years with the pve talents (LOL at the t45 paladin row we've had since 2012). I vaguely remember an interview with Holinka where he said my favorite blizz line of all "If there are talents that are broken or just not useful at all we can remove them and introduce new ones or buff underperfoming ones." This.failed.so.hard.

As a ret, since the launch of legion I can tell you that our talents have not changed. There were some brief moment of OP (vengeance aura and the poison dispel) talents but for the most part talents were too good not to take or the least bad of the row. I took trinket, 10% HP, long hoj, blessing of sanc, and Lawbringer (pre nerf). This was my talent build at pretty much all times. Why didn't they change any talents? Why didn't they remove the good ones to try to introduce something different?

Honor talents had the best potential to shore up some weakness of class design and make pvp fun. But they failed miserably with hardly any changes at all besides damage tuning for legion. This is made even worse in BfA by the fact that they are basically turning them into glyphs and we all know how glyphs worked. I am highly skeptical of this because I don't think they are going to be removing or reenvisioning talents through out the expansion. We are simply going to find our 3 best talents and set and forget.

This system has way more potential than was put into it. Please actually take the time to keep the honor glyphs at least refreshed and interesting choices.
06/13/2018 01:53 PMPosted by Cybergrind
I’ve been active (2100-2700) in arena every season of this game, but gearing in legion was the biggest pvp killer in the history of this game with maybe the exception of vanilla (although we had no alternate ways to compare it to at the time then).

The pvp gearing system in WOD was probably as perfect as it will get. PvP gear was relatively easy to gain, put everyone on an equal playing field and made it so pve gear didn’t dominate for once. The way that system was taken and pulled apart was pretty horrific.


100% Agree which is why I suggested we go back to a similar system and regain the importance of PvP gear again. WoD PvP was better in every way.
06/13/2018 05:20 PMPosted by Osmeric
06/13/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Jugajr
Casual participation is actually up. And that’s not even inflating numbers with bots like last expansion.

I don't believe you one bit.


He makes stuff up constantly so I tend to ignore him. I mean he has 70k post and thinks he is right about everything when he doesn't understand what is actually going on in PvP.

Legion had the worst PvP participation across the board. BGs were unplayable. You Que sometimes out of boredom but leave soon after and welcome the deserter buff instead of the pain of trying to do a Legion BG. They were so flat and uneventful so no one wanted to stay in them. They were over often as fast as they started. Legion probably had the highest deserter rating of any expansion.

BFA needs to do everything different from Legion. Hope Blizzard is taking notes. We really do.
06/13/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Kaylae
...

While i agree the rewards are a lacking greatly , factions are not why. 45/55 is pretty close its not that bad . Go get the addon ReFlex please and see that you actually win way more then you even lose .

When you lose it can seem like you lose all the time but thats incorrect. Blizzard only agrees to making the maps and stuff better they are not agreeing that its because of faction lol you people crack me up. If it was so truly bad as alliance then why are people still playing alliance ? Because its not even bad you guys like to make up stuff. Both sides accuse eachother of winning more , adapt and become better players. Stop demanding uneeded pruining ,and anti social features etc .

Just adapt and overcome or stick to pve or something that you enjoy. Of pvp is making you that miserable then why are you even playing it ? Dont try to change what others have no problems with just because you feel entitled to a certain point of view. That is how all this pruining of classes began ,that is on you guys not blizzard .


Stop putting words in my mouth. I want more abilities and less pruning. I'm not complaining about my personal win rate, I'm saying that you are absolutely wrong about win rates being lopsided. Casual pvp is garbage in legion, it's the worst it's ever been because of pruning and rewards which are worse than unfailable pve. Unaddressed faction imbalance isn't helping, but it's a minor issue among many, I'm simply pointing out that you were factually incorrect, so please own that instead of deflecting. Going from "It doesn't exist" to "it's not so bad" is moving the goal posts.

Also, understand that those faction win rates also include premade groups that are likely to win the majority of their matches. An exclusively solo alliance player is likely to hover around the 35%-40% win rate mark which is where the complaints are coming from. Those people should form premades, but it's hard to motivate people to get better when the rewards are so bad.

No one is putting words anywhere its just my opinion on this matter when i read peoples complaints. Also just because my opinion differs does not mean i am wrong lol .

I casually pvp everyday its always 50/50 .The win rate isnt lopsided by no means .
My post will mainly cover arena PVP.

There are 2 main issue that I feel made Legion PVP not as fun as it could have been (I still enjoyed it though). I won't be talking about gearing and rewards because I think this has been well covered already.

1. Cooldowns are too powerful - defensive and offensive abilities. This causes multiple issues in arena. One problem is that it makes swapping to a target that makes a big mistake less impactful because everyone has an "oh crap" button that will get them out of basically anything (1 min lock wall, netherwalk, etc.). For example, lets say that a DH way overextends and your team capitalizes and stuns him to kill. If you don't have dps CDs available, more likely than not you are not going to get the kill and he will just netherwalk out, or fel rush away and be completely fine. This leads to it being ever more difficult to punish 'stupid' gameplay.

Now, the offensive cooldown problem. Offensive CDs are way too powerful. *Way too powerful*. Because of this, damage outside of offensive CDs is extremely lackluster. You pretty much wait around and stall the game until your offensive abilities are up for your "go" and then you have a chance of winning the game. This makes the gameplay very boring and scripted at times because you are basically a wet noodle swinging around until you have your offensive CDs, and then you become a bazooka wielding ninja on steroids.

tl;dr defensive and offensive abilities are too strong, make damage outside of CDs higher. This will make gameplay less scripted and make people think more on their feet.

2. The second biggest issue in legion was lack of choices for many classes. As a sub rogue, I almost never change my PVP talents (or normal talents) based on the matchup, and when I do, it is such a lame decision. "Oh, there's melee, I'll play sparring instead hardiness." How boring is that? There is no gameplay alteration as a result of that decision. There aren't enough viable choices that alter gameplay in any way. I loved when I would actually have to alter my talents and style based on what comp we were playing. As a side note, passive PVP abilities are absurdly boring, please add more gameplay altering abilities/add in old abilities as PVP talents.

I hope this post didn't come off as negative in any way, I really do want for the game to change in a way that will make it more interactive and fun for everyone.
Main issue with pvp in legion is there is no real incentive besides just liking to pvp. The gear it drops is bad. WoD was nice in that the gear scaled. it didn't matter if the mythic pve player came in with elite purples. In legion it feels like you have to pve just to be competitive in pvp.

Stuns are way to prevalent. Bring back cc where people have to pay attention and use strategy.

Prestige is nice, but some classes didn't feel very playable in pvp without certain honor talents. Grinding just to get to those talents makes you not want to pvp.
06/12/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Dunibadaz
Stat templates are the worst thing blizzard has ever done


Hear hear!

Losing nearly 40K Intellect feels BAD. Destroying bosses with huge damage is great, but then that same spell gets scaled way way down against players? Awful.

If anything, templates belong on new characters to upscale, not downscale the ones who have already put in the effort. Scale the newbies up to the average level of everyone else, but don't punish the ones who earned the gear to pump out the damage.
06/13/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Byrhtnoth
06/13/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Jugajr
Casual participation is actually up. And that’s not even inflating numbers with bots like last expansion.

1) What's your source?
2) How are you defining "casual participation"? Are you including things like WQ towers and the WQ rumbles?
Nope. Randoms. There is a site which tracks winrates and Bgs played.
Which site? Link plox.

Not saying I don’t believe you. Saying you should cite your source.
06/13/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Byrhtnoth
Which site? Link plox.

Not saying I don’t believe you. Saying you should cite your source.


http://www.wow-stats.com/bgwr01.html

Anyone that followed it from last expansion knows that participation is up despite the biggest bot company being shut down recently. And you can see in the graph how winrates are SO much better than WoD as well.
06/13/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Incinerator
06/12/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Dunibadaz
Stat templates are the worst thing blizzard has ever done


Hear hear!

Losing nearly 40K Intellect feels BAD. Destroying bosses with huge damage is great, but then that same spell gets scaled way way down against players? Awful.

If anything, templates belong on new characters to upscale, not downscale the ones who have already put in the effort. Scale the newbies up to the average level of everyone else, but don't punish the ones who earned the gear to pump out the damage.


This is actually something I was posting about as a suggestion. There is another game that has something similar.

Lets say you enter a bg and the highest ilvl person in there is 960. So everyone else depending on their ilvl is scaled up to match the highest ilvl in the match. So lets say someone is 900 they will get a pretty hefty boost to get them within 5-10% disparity vs the 960. People in that match that around say 930ish would get a smaller boost to get within the same percentage as the 960.

Doing it that way, gear and ilvl will always be a moving goal post for those who havent gotten geared yet but they wont be left behind in the dirt. On the flip side, the person who put in the time to hit 960 will get to reap the benefits and wont be scaled down.
i disagree, I think that gear ilvls should be there, and that gear should be customizable in pvp. This discourages elite pvpers from cramming up the arena ranks with alts. It's already blasphemous, blizzard you are giving into player's greed saying "haha now we can create alts and own noobs all day" mentality
I want all levels to be able to play in the PvP Brawls.

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