Concerns pvp and 8.0

War Mode and World PvP
I get there is a lot to be done and blizz has a lot on their hands. But scaling needs to be addressed. I completely love the idea of a 110 holding his own vs a 120.

But the scaling goes much further then that. I went to org on my lock with a LVL 60 disc priest. It literally took 10 horde to kill him, not exaggerating that number either. At 120 I could get this disc priest below 80% hp. Actually crazy.

Also it’s seems like old pvp gear with resilience works. A lot of people are running around in full Cata pvp gear and other old seasons. Makes you 100% more useful in pvp atm or so it seems.

Try it out for yourself

But something needs to be done before 8.0 goes live
May have to double check if I have cats pop gear in the bank still, thanks ;)
Just dropping in to say that the PvP scaling is a system we're iterating on. Anomalies like level 60 players doing more damage than a 110 are essentially bugs that we're ironing out.

It would be helpful to hear scenarios in which you feel the scaling system is functioning oddly (i.e. lower levels doing more damage than max levels, certain spells doing more damage than they should, items etc.)

Thanks for the testing, and the feedback!
Phalanx - nearly every 110 proc trinket from Antorus is busted. Seems like these have yet to have a tuning pass. As a 110, I can AOE down entire group of 120s using one on use trinket from antorus as an example. This works both in the world, and in arenas, BGs etc. As do the below examples.

Certain toys are 1 shotting people for nearly 100k damage.

https://i.imgur.com/zzBbusQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/seshjfS.png
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=67531/pelted
The BB gun from Stormwind or whatever is being abused in arenas ATM, 1 shotting people.
So, if I'm out leveling solo with warmode on... no one that's 120 is gonna gank me? Sign me up.
06/18/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Phalanx
Just dropping in to say that the PvP scaling is a system we're iterating on. Anomalies like level 60 players doing more damage than a 110 are essentially bugs that we're ironing out.

It would be helpful to hear scenarios in which you feel the scaling system is functioning oddly (i.e. lower levels doing more damage than max levels, certain spells doing more damage than they should, items etc.)

Thanks for the testing, and the feedback!


Yeah I beat a 120 frost dk as a 110 unholy dk in a duel. He was a skull to me in the fight. Should be a no contest win for him.
@Phalanx

I've been dueling as a tank on the beta for the past 2 days, and noticed a damn ton of things

- Legendary stacks gear like the fan cloak is a one-shot in wpvp
- Assass rogue, ret paladins, are pretty overpowered
- Antorus Trinket are extremely strong.
- the Red Air Rifle that can be bought from the gnome toy vendor in Stormwind is one-shotting people, rogue have been abusing it with shoot/vanish
Legendaries need MASSIVE nerfs or they need to be disabled in warmode. Or hitting lvl 116 is going to be a huge nerf to your character.

The effects are all simply too good and in some cases completely broken (I’m looking at you rogue shoulders and pants).
Hi Phalanx!

As someone has mentioned, legendaries in warmode can get very ridiculous. In situations like rogue and FoK I can easily see a future where many keep a rogue for wpvp at 115 or lower just for legendaries.

I am not the most creative person in the world...I really cannot make any suggestion except to disable all legendaries' effects in warmode. Leave them until 116 for pve, but do it as soon as warmode is turned on. PvP warmode benefits from the extra talents to offset the loss a little.

Specific item example not legendary: I can confirm that the trinket from antorus (the last boss) with the proc AE effect absolutely wrecks people at any level when I use it with my 110 rogue -- though I havent checked that in a week or so
In my opinion the only trinkets that should be able to work in warmode/pvp should be pvp trinkets.

It’s not much fun in beta having 30% of my damage come from exploding bananas....
I actually don't mind lower level players being able to do SOMETHING to higher level players, if not being roughly on par.

They shouldn't be superior at all, but I think being on even grounds numbers wise is fine. Higher level players will still have a considerable advantage from all their extra abilities, talents and so on. But this would reduce a lot of the frustration of ganking that we get nowadays while leveling with PvP on. As it stands if there's so much as a one level difference the pwoer gap is insane. At two levels you basically get one shot. lv60 vs 120? Forgeddabowdit.

I don't normally like to play the 'vanilla card' but I did like how, with skill, a lower level player could beat a higher level player. Within a margin of a few levels of course. Nowadays that can't happen because of the drastic power gap between a single level, let alone lv cap VS anyone not at cap.

tl;dr: I agree that a lv60 shouldn't be so powerful as to be unkillable by lv120s. But I actually like the idea of removing the feeling of helplessness when you get ganked by someone a single level or fifty levels higher than you. If you play smart and well you SHOULD have a chance to beat them in a 1v1. But higher level players will still have an advantage from abilities and so on.

To add: Many legendaries and trinkets need adjusting, in all honesty I'd prefer if they just 'switched off' as soon as you engaged in PvP combat.
06/18/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Phalanx
Just dropping in to say that the PvP scaling is a system we're iterating on. Anomalies like level 60 players doing more damage than a 110 are essentially bugs that we're ironing out.

It would be helpful to hear scenarios in which you feel the scaling system is functioning oddly (i.e. lower levels doing more damage than max levels, certain spells doing more damage than they should, items etc.)

Thanks for the testing, and the feedback!


I agree that a low should not be able to do more dmg than a 110/120 but they need to be on par with them and all other class's/bracket.
You say you want low level's to be able to fight back while leveling in Warmode, ok but what's the point of fighting back if we know we are going to lose?
Balance needs to be put in place where a more skilled persons on a low level can beat a less skilled person on a 120 in warmode.
Only the number of ability's/spells should make the difference, and thats where a 120 will have it over the low level.
Then if a 120 fails its because of skill not a 1 shot.
06/18/2018 07:56 PMPosted by Energon
06/18/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Phalanx
Just dropping in to say that the PvP scaling is a system we're iterating on. Anomalies like level 60 players doing more damage than a 110 are essentially bugs that we're ironing out.

It would be helpful to hear scenarios in which you feel the scaling system is functioning oddly (i.e. lower levels doing more damage than max levels, certain spells doing more damage than they should, items etc.)

Thanks for the testing, and the feedback!


I agree that a low should not be able to do more dmg than a 110/120 but they need to be on par with them and all other class's/bracket.
You say you want low level's to be able to fight back while leveling in Warmode, ok but what's the point of fighting back if we know we are going to lose?
Balance needs to be put in place where a more skilled persons on a low level can beat a less skilled person on a 120 in warmode.
Only the number of ability's/spells should make the difference, and thats where a 120 will have it over the low level.
Then if a 120 fails its because of skill not a 1 shot.


Or just don't turn on warmode if you don't want to be PvP'ed against? This is an MMO where inherently there must be a difference between a low level, and a max level, a person with gear, and one without. Otherwise the whole system falls apart on itself.

It's bad enough blizzard has nuked pvp servers in favor of a opt-in to pvp mechanic, let's not have them destroy it further by letting Johnny Raider who just came back from a 3 month break on a freshly boosted toon that he's leveling have a chance at killing the mythic raider who has spent 3 months earning some of the best gear available in the game, or a gladiator who has grinding games every week to get his best possible set.

You can't bring arena level 'balance' to the world without destroying the underlying systems that make an MMO worth grinding / playing. For someone to be strong in the game, there has to be weak players, and the carrot on the stick is the ever increasing power of your toon.
I feel like there are three types of players in regard to this argument.

Player 1: everything should be equal, pvp should only be about skill.

Player 2: it’s an mmo it should be all about gear if I play more I should beat you.

Player 3: if someone plays more they should have an advantage yes but it should not decide the fight before it starts. A skilled under geared player should be able to compete with a less skilled higher geared player.

I completely disagree with both Player 1 and player 2s arguments. There is a middle ground that will work really well, they just need to get that scale right.
It may just be a tuning thing, but it seems like pets aren't scaling down properly. Was just fighting some random 120s as a 113, and hunter pet basic attacks were hitting harder than the warrior's execute lol.

I seem to recall something similar with invasion mob pets and summoned things not scaling down right in the Legion prepatch ptr.
06/18/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Josefine
It may just be a tuning thing, but it seems like pets aren't scaling down properly. Was just fighting some random 120s as a 113, and hunter pet basic attacks were hitting harder than the warrior's execute lol.

I seem to recall something similar with invasion mob pets and summoned things not scaling down right in the Legion prepatch ptr.


Lots of stuff isn't scaling properly, like trinkets and some enchants. There are even broken toys like the air gun hitting people for 30k damage.

Honestly, there is so much that IS broken I have little faith they can squash these bugs before it goes live. It's hard to remotely tell what PvP will be like in the current state. Rogues are hitting me for 15k with a shadow fan of knives spam and killing me within a few globals; that's how it is in beta right now.
06/18/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Snizfiz
I feel like there are three types of players in regard to this argument.

Player 1: everything should be equal, pvp should only be about skill.

Player 2: it’s an mmo it should be all about gear if I play more I should beat you.

Player 3: if someone plays more they should have an advantage yes but it should not decide the fight before it starts. A skilled under geared player should be able to compete with a less skilled higher geared player.

I completely disagree with both Player 1 and player 2s arguments. There is a middle ground that will work really well, they just need to get that scale right.


100 percent on the ball here. Seems like player 3 is the most fair and great for war modes
06/18/2018 10:20 PMPosted by Madholm
06/18/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Josefine
It may just be a tuning thing, but it seems like pets aren't scaling down properly. Was just fighting some random 120s as a 113, and hunter pet basic attacks were hitting harder than the warrior's execute lol.

I seem to recall something similar with invasion mob pets and summoned things not scaling down right in the Legion prepatch ptr.


Lots of stuff isn't scaling properly, like trinkets and some enchants. There are even broken toys like the air gun hitting people for 30k damage.

Honestly, there is so much that IS broken I have little faith they can squash these bugs before it goes live. It's hard to remotely tell what PvP will be like in the current state. Rogues are hitting me for 15k with a shadow fan of knives spam and killing me within a few globals; that's how it is in beta right now.

If they can't fix it all in time, they can probably at least disable all toys and items in instances temporarily. WPvP might still be a mess, but that's nothing new for a prepatch.
06/18/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Snizfiz
There is a middle ground that will work really well, they just need to get that scale right.

I don't think it's a scaling issue though. It's a problem with depth and pruning.

The game doesn't have deep enough PvP combat to support skill making up enough of a difference now (unless it's an absurdly large gulf between players, but that's an edge case and in some matchups still doesn't exist).

I used to duel people naked on my hunter in Wrath and win without ever being touched. That won't happen anymore, and arguably can't. Partly because the average player is far better at the game now, and partly because the ability to do so has been severely reduced since then.

The only way to actually achieve skilled players overcoming lesser skilled players, class balance and all the other factors that go into a fight, is to make dps rotations more difficult and add back in utility buttons.

And I'm afraid that's not very likely to happen because it goes directly against the philosophy that's driven WoW for a long time now.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum