[Feedback] Balance Druid: Rotation & Talents

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Build 26707 includes major changes, as described by Seph in this post:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20763356178?page=16#post-307

It's just easier to make a new thread with the changes.

This thread is a continuation of the Balance Druid community's feedback.
__________________________________________________________

Community Feelings so far:
  • Politely, tuning is needed.
  • Talent Rows should probably be shuffled.
  • T15 Talents are improved, but missed the mark.
  • Stellar Flare is weird. It needs to be more than just a DOT if there's a cost.
  • Stellar Drift is too niche.
  • Warrior of Elune probably didn't need the Astral Power bonus.
  • Force of Nature needs more love.
  • Nature's Balance is a good concept, but it's not good enough out of combat.
  • Incarnation needs love. Indirect nerfs to blame.
  • Empowerments/Eclipse is a successful idea. Not the greatest idea, but still good.
  • Talent Rows needs to be balanced better. Leans too much towards "swap every fight"
  • Astral Power generation pacing feels good, though the individual sources need improvement.
Personal feedback. These are heavy-handed suggestions. Our opinions will differ, but please consider it as a single, complete idea.

The goal is this collection is reduced development time, balance between talents, and providing the most impact with the least amount of code changes.
____________________

Mastery:
  • Stellar Empowerment has a negative impact on gameplay at high Mastery levels. I think removing Stellar Empowerment from Starfall is the best solution. I do not think Mastery needs to change beyond that. It’s a simple change with the biggest impact and it fulfills it’s intended design perfectly. Tuning the AOE Toolkit will ensure the damage breakdown isn’t too skewed in the “wrong direction.”


Shooting Stars:
  • I’m seriously advocating you make Shooting Stars baseline. In addition to this change, Removing bonus AP in T15 to compensate for the increase in resource generation. It doesn’t need to deal damage.
  • 2 AP @ 10% proc rate is too weak to compete on the T100 tier. I feel like it should compete with Twin Moons.
  • Make it a DR proc rate (Agony). This will make it weak on single-target, but not trash-tier. This is also keep it from going bonkers in heavy AOE. The shorthand math is “1 dot DR = 1 dot; 4 dots DR = 2 dots.” This should have been the design in Legion, but it’s very hard to change minds once they’re set on something.


Warrior of Elune:
  • Astral Power bonus is cool. 40% is a weird number to land on. (16.8 AP?)
  • I would suggest removing the Astral Power bonus, but I also believe the flavor is in the right place. If you don’t want to remove it, nerf it to 25% (12 -> 15).
  • Avoid partial values, or make the API return the true UnitPower() value, or at least decimals. UnitPower() returns 10 AP, rather than the true value of 100. If you had partial value of 105 (10.5), I’d still see 10 AP and I dislike that.


Force of Nature:
  • Astral Power overtime is really weird, especially when Nature’s Balance exists.
  • 15 AP / 10sec is too weak.
  • I strongly suggest it generate 15 Astral Power on cast, and other 15 AP over 10sec. This keeps the AP generation in line with Warrior of Elune.

____________________

Talent Row Balance (Major changes):

  • This is going to be a nightmare. It’s basically your ideas versus mine. While I don’t want to add too much work to the code, I think we need to shuffle the talents.
  • I’ll explain the reasoning and concept at the end.
  • This is a complete idea.

____________________

Stellar Drift (T90):
  • Removed.
  • Starfall gains 30% radius buff baseline.
  • Starfall gains buffs for damage loss (Stellar Empowerment removal and Stellar Drift removal)
  • Talent Slot replaced with new spell: Nature's Grace
  • Nature's Grace:
    • Lunar Empowerment and Solar Empowerment allows their respective spells to be castable while moving.

  • Stellar Drift is a cool mechanic, but casting while moving is far too niche to be the only selling point on single-target. This change improves selection.


Nature's Grace (T90):
  • Replaces Stellar Drift.
  • Moved to T15, replacing Nature's Balance.
  • Lunar Empowerment and Solar Empowerment allows their respective spells to be castable while moving.
  • It’s a very difficult mechanic to play around, but it doesn’t add any direct increase. Better players will be able to make use of it. You’d be able to cast 6-7 casts usable while moving, but this requires incredible skill and patience.


Nature's Balance (T15):
  • Moved to T90 to replace Stellar Drift/Nature’s Grace.
  • Nature’s Balance is a painfully weak, even against T15 talents. It will need significant buffs to compete on T90 row.
  • Improvements:
    • Increase threshold to 60 Astral Power.
    • Generates 3 Astral Power every 2 seconds. (90AP/60sec)
    • While out of combat, increase the tick rate by 200%.
      • ~10sec from 0 to 50.
      • ~12sec from 0 to 60.


Shooting Stars (T100):
  • I’d still like this to be baseline as it stands, but moving on as if it were a talent...
  • Moved to T90 to replace Stellar Flare
  • I want to improve the single-target performance, but nerf the heavy-AOE performance. (Helps with the feeling of it being a "wasted" talent on single-target, yet not "mandatory" in AOE.)
  • Trigger changed to be coded like Agony, a diminishing proc rate as you afflict more enemies with Moonfire and Sunfire.
  • I have a function in a spreadsheet that calculates the effect, so we can tune this to absolute perfection.
  • Increase to 3 AP per proc and increase proc rate to 15%. (We can tune this later.)


Continued....
...from above.

Stellar Flare (T90): Variant #1
  • Moved to T100 to replace Shooting Stars.
  • When an enemy afflicted by Stellar Flare suffers a critical hit from Stellar Flare, extend the duration of Moonfire and Sunfire on the target by 8 seconds. If Stellar Flare is dispelled from an enemy, your next Stellar Flare is costs no Astral Power and applies Moonfire and Sunfire to the target.
    • Suffers in PVP due to lack of dispel protection. Promotes the rot playstyle.
    • The goal is to ease up on the GCDs used for casting DOTs.


Stellar Flare (T90): Variant #2
  • Moved to T100 to replace Shooting Stars
  • I think we might be trying to force Stellar Flare into a toolkit where it simply does not have a place (too many GCDs pulled away from fillers and spenders). I’m seriously considering just cutting the ability outright. There’s so many issues it causes with the base rotation, its AOE capabilities, and its impact on talent row balance. It will be better to have a “safe talent” this late in development.
  • Removed and replaced by new spell: Euphoria
    • Oneth’s Intuition / Oneth’s Overconfidence (but with nerfed proc rate)


Euphoria (T90):
  • Moved to T100 to replaced Shooting Stars.
  • Replacement spell for Stellar Flare. (Stellar Flare feels like we're trying to force it to work. Sometimes we just need to go a different direction.)
  • Oneth’s Intuition / Oneth’s Overconfidence (but with nerfed proc rate)
  • Your Starsurge has a 15% chance to make your next Starfall free.
  • Your Starfall has a 15% chance to make your next Starsurge free.


____________________

My proposal ends up like this:

Talent Row - T15: Nature's Grace, Warrior of Elune, Force of Nature
  • Each have their niche, but all talents are effectively used to cover to movement. NG is your skill-cap talent. WOE is convenient. FON is utility.
  • Nature’s Grace is a QOL bonus for the average player, but offers a huge skillcap for the top-tier player. Bonus casts do to movement may not outweigh WOE or FON all the time, but it’s especially powerful for planned movement. It has great synergy with Starlord too (because you absolutely must generate AP at all times).
  • Warrior of Elune is our burst AP option. I don’t think it needs bonus AP, but nerfing it to 25% should be plenty okay.
  • Force of Nature needs buffing, another 20-30% Spell Power. They don’t offer enough Astral Power.


Talent Row - T30: Unchanged.
  • Tiger’s Dash and Renewal will need to be revisited..


Talent Row - T45: Unchanged.
  • Too much work to fix. Revisit next expansion.


Talent Row - T60: Unchanged.
  • I think Mass Entanglement is too niche.


Talent Row - T75: Soul of the Forest, Twin Moons, Incarnation.
  • SOTF should be in a decent spot at this time.
  • Twin Moons fill a good niche.
  • Incarnation got hit by indirect nerfs and will need some love. Maybe bump the Spell Damage bonus to 35% or the Haste bonus to 25%.
    • The biggest (indirect) nerf was to Astral Power generation.


Talent Row - T90: Starlord, Nature's Balance, Shooting Stars
  • Each talent impacts ST, AOE and Astral Power generation significantly.
  • Starlord offers a big Haste bonus. It might be possible to bump the duration up to 20sec, and nerf the Haste bonus to 2.5% per stack, up to 5 stacks.
  • Nature’s Balance is a multi-purpose sustain talent. Good for ST and AOE.
  • Shooting Stars with a properly tuned proc rate will fit this row perfectly.


Talent Row - T100: [Stellar Flare #1] or Euphoria, Fury of Elune, New Moon
  • Each talent will affect Astral Power generation, the rotation, and decision-making.
  • [Stellar Flare #1] attempts to make Stellar Flare a critical-strike happy talent. I think the issue boils down to micromanagement and lack of excitement...it’s just a button at this time.
  • Euphoria is OI/legendary, but with a nerf. It’s meant as a passive effect. Free procs are effectively worth their weight in AP. We can convert the proc rate into Astral Power, then adjust the proc rate to fall in line with other T100 talents.
  • Fury of Elune is our burst AOE option, but I feel the cooldown is too long. I think the Astral Power is a bit out of place. I think it should generate 80 Astral Power over 8sec. or reduce the cooldown to 60sec (40 AP over 8sec would be totally fine here) -- synergy with Force of Nature.
  • New Moon’s cooldown is too long. Drop it down to a 20sec recharge (~93 AP/60sec) -- good synergy with [Starlord, 20sec].
Well then, I will copy the post I made on your old post.

I tried the new talents on Beta and it feels much better than it did before.
Asp generation feels much better, but there are a few talents that I don't feel will be used much in their actual version.

I also really enjoy the new rng added to solar wrath and lunar strike with the 20% of generating the opposite ability's empowerment.
I haven't been able to test the new solar empowerment in dungeon, but it is an interesting way to make solar wrath worth something in aoe situations and I like the 15 % reduction cast time on Lunar/Solar empowerment with the baseline cast time reduction for Lunar Strike. It is not anything fancy, but Lunar Strike used to be a long cast for very little gained and now it is way shorter and might gain us an empowerment on top of it.

Level 15
Nature's Balance feels like it should be the go to for m+, but the regeneration out of combat feels too slow to be relevant past the first pull. The time in between pulls in m+ will make it irrelevant and the value will drop down significantly.
If the regeneration out of combat does no change, I doubt it will be better than Warrior of Elune since it generates only 15.6 more ap then WoE and takes 1min25s to fill the 50 ap pool out of combat.

WoE's interactions with our new passive of 20% chance of proccing solar empowerment with Lunar Strike means that its potential is higher than Nature's Balance in most encounter.
It is probably even better in ST, but it still remains to be seen what the sims actually say about my prediction.

Force of Nature might be useful for the taunt with some specific affixes in dungeon or early on in the xpac when the tank gets shredded, but I don't see it being used past that unless the damage is really high.

Level 75
Soul of the Forest seems a bit underwhelming now as it is the worst version of ST and AOE talent. I don't think the 10 astral power reduction will make it better than Twin Moons in aoe situation, but the bonus dmg to lunar and solar empowerment might make it more valuable with more mastery. (I am not sure about that an haven't ever done math on this, but I believe the 30% would affect the amount that mastery buffs our spells which makes it better the more mastery we get)
With that said, some specific encounter could use the hybrid talent for phase of aoe and single target.

Twins Moons will most definitely be used in M+ or any raid boss that could gain from the cleave moonfire.

Incarnation: Chosen of Elune is probably gonna stay as the go to in pure single target, but the difference between this and Celestial alignment is now smaller and might make soul of the forest better if there are no burst phase that last longer than 20s.
Here again, the sims will tell.

Level 90
Starlord feels weak as the 3 stacks don't last very long and the damage seem more consistent and easier to pull off with stellar flare.
The haste buff will probably be better than stellar flare due to our very low haste early on the expansion.

ST will likely be between Starlord and Stellar Flare depending on the balancing of Stellar Flare.
I don't believe Starlord will be better than Stellar Drift or Stellar Flare with 2+ targets so it might need a small buff like giving it 4% instead of 3%.

Stellar Drift basically stays the same. With the new tools for Asp generation, it won't require using SotF so it will likely be used in m+ with large pull that can't gain as much from Stellar Flare.

Level 100
Shooting Stars will likely be the go to in M+ as it was in Legion.

I could see the Moon spell being chosen as well if there are single target or bursty encounter to deal with to gain lots of AP quickly.

Tbh, Fury of Elune feels lackluster.
The cooldown is still too long for the 40asp generation each 1.3min.
Unless there are big aoe packs that have to be burned down very fast every 1.3min, shooting stars will do better in aoe and Moon will be a more consistent source of damage and Asp.

Idk if it is what Blizzard want us to use this for, but it will only be used in very niche situations in its current iteration.

This is my quick opinion on the new changes. In general they are pretty good, but as I expected, a few things might need to be improved to make the spec really fun and even better than Legion possibly.

I know that I haven't given much ideas for improvement, but I did not feel like just saying whatever came to mind without thinking about it thoroughly.
I look forward to everyone's opinion and I hope we can help Blizzard make the spec even better once again.
Just some initial thoughts after a bit of dummy testing here.

Warrior of Elune seems extremely strong to me, overpowering the other two. I could be wrong but it feels pretty indicative that it's a clear 1-2-3 with WoE-NB-FoN.

As for tier 75, Twin Moons does not seem to be functioning correctly. Soul of the Forest actually seems like the go-to for ST while Inc feels like a lackluster improvement to CA now and is left behind on that tier.

At T90, Stellar Drift sits at its typical AoE niche, and it can probably continue to be taken in ST with SotF to favor a movement heavy fight. Starlord currently seems a tad undertuned, mostly in duration. I almost wish it had rolling stacks similar to Ironfur because buildup to fire off three in a row is tricky without capping empowerments (a good thing!!) but by the time you hit it, it's almost gone. Stellar Flare* at least to me still struggles to find a spot, but again, this is on dummies.
(*edit)

At T100, FoE seems too easy to use to make New Moon ever worth it. In ST, it's an easy maintenance AP gain, and in AoE it'll probably be amazing. On a side note, radius size should be included in the tooltip. If it remains synced with sunfire/LS range, it's almost a no-brainer and barring damage tuning might even be better than Shooting Stars in most situations.

With all that, it feels to me that unless there's an overwhelmingly large AoE pack, a typical build would be WoE, SotF, SD, FoE, with really only SotF changing to TM for easy moonfire spreading. And while that works, I hope I just suck at testing and don't see the benefits to a lot of other options because it seems very set-and-forget. I'll give it a shot in dungeons as well and see where I stand.
My initial feeling upon looking at the way the talent tree shook out is, if we wanted to make sure that AoE talents were against AoE talents and ST talents are against ST talents, shouldn't Incarnation and Stellar Drift swap places? I know Stellar Drift and SotF are a nice synergy but, I'd still rather have them compete.

I like Twin Moons in concept, but it does feel very lack luster. Cyouskin, your suggestion should help that.

Force of Nature may need some help depending on damage.

For Stellar Flare, I thought the removing of the empowerments was supposed to be followed by an increase in damage of spell itself, but, if I read it right, the decreased both direct damage and dot portions of the spell.

Fury of Elune seems lack luster. I feel as though it should be 80 AsP. Would allow it to synergize Starlord more at that point, giving you enough AsP in a quick enough time window to keep Starlord fully up for a longer period of time.

As a side note, with Incarnation being generally lack luster as a talent, would it be feasible to put Emerald Dreamcatcher here? Again plays into Starlord as a playstyle build differing from what would/should likely be the normal playstyle/build. Would also give a high skill cap potential?
After playing with this a bit, it still feels like I am being forced into a ST or AoE build, which is something that I thought was going away.

A few thoughts.

Tier 15: WoE seems required here. Nature's Balance is okay in theory, but the AP gain is just too slow, particularly out of combat. Force of Nature maybe okay for leveling, but it just seems weak, unless the damage is tuned really high.

Tier 75: Soul of the Forest just seems better for AoE, while Incarnation may be better for ST. Twin Moons just seems lackluster. Hate the choice between AoE and ST here.

Tier 90: Again, forced to choose between AoE or ST. With lower Starfall damage, Stellar Drift will be required for AoE with Stellar Flare being the likely ST talent. Starlord just feels undertuned, so it will be the talent no one ever takes.

Tier 100: New Moon just feels too slow now with the 30 second recharge time. Numbers will tell, but Shooting Stars seems to be the winner on this tier. Fury of Elune with the long CD, doesn't seem like it is competitive, really.

Again, as I said, I just feel like we remain forced into picking a ST vs. AoE build, which was one of the huge complaints all through Legion.
Talent choices aside, gameplay is a lot more captivating. Props to that.

Nothing much else to add.
2 sec ago
05/01/2018 12:19 AMPosted by Cyouskin
Stellar Flare suffers from a very heavy cost. A Starfall that costs 60, plus the Stellar Flare (10), plus the fact we aren't casting a filler (8), means Stellar Flare costs a bit too much.
Stellar Flare requiring a Starfall to be down to get a large portion of its damage felt bad – it’s a kind of weird negative synergy with both being Astral Power spenders. We’ve removed the Stellar Empowerment portion of it, and instead its damage is increased by Balance mastery (the portion that increases Astral Power spender damage), and kept its 10 Astral Power for now.

One use case for Stellar Flare was that it can be a spender for targets that can’t all be covered by a single Starfall (even though Stellar Drift covers the entire world and pulls the floor above), and this use case pointed even more toward removing the Stellar Empowerment requirement portion of it. I think Stellar Flare is still looking for its place on the spec - we’ll continue to look for opportunities to improve/change it.


I just wanted to chime in and say as someone who's mained a boomkin since vanilla and remembers vividly wear cloth for the bonus, I love all the new improvements and while amazing in Legion, boomkins in BFA seem a lot more captivating.

Just an idea when it came to Stellar Flare, perhaps it could be as simple as buffing moonfire/sunfire. Or maybe if you really love us boomys a stun/silence/intrupt if comnined with all three (or four if you wanna include starfall).

Sorry if this post is noobish, i've only posted on the forums occasionally through my wowlife and it's my first time in a beta. Thanks Blizz<3
Game play is a lot more fun but I still feel like something is missing, I dont know if Azerite traits will fix that but without new moon being baseline it still feels shallow to me.
05/24/2018 06:57 PMPosted by Cyouskin

- SOTF at 30% for Empowerment just makes it strong with low mastery levels. Not sold on the tuning portion, but we can revisit.


What do you mean by this? The 30% is multiplicative, it should get stronger with more mastery?

There are a few interactions that I'm finding interesting on the new build. Stellar Flare still feels awkward as hell and Stellar Drift is pretty niched out into aoe-heavy or movement-heavy fights, so most of the testing is with Starlord.

Starlord encourages a very back-loaded, save up for a big offload type play, but I'm not sure how much gain you get from doing it. It'll be a number cruncher thing to see I guess. But, for the sake of testing, seeing what feels good (generally, what allows me to get 3 stacks as quickly as possible), burst AP feels better than trickle AP right now. Fury of Elune and Moonmoon are spectacular for this, you can pre-cast FoE before starting to dump starsurges and new/half or full let you very quickly build AP for the third stack.

Warrior of Elune seems miles ahead of the other two regarding starlord.

I'm not sure they want the type of gameplay that they've installed with the new starlord talent; certainly not as the default talent on the tier, but while Stellar Flare remains what it is and Stellar Drift remains niche, I don't see how it will ever be different. Even if they fix stellar flare, having to choose between the cadance of Starlord and the 3 dot tracking of stellar flare is a choice some people defintely won't enjoy.

Personally I see potential, I feel that the spec is fun now in certain builds and when it is tuned for numbers itll be good again. I wish stellar drift could be replaced with another talent that impacts single target but doesn't drastically alter the base rotation, but I dont really see another good place for it either.

What I will say is that between empowerment procs, FoE, WoE, starlord.. I feel like Moonkin has become a busy spec again with a lot of moving parts to track, which is good!
Nature’s Balance- As someone has already mentioned the out of combat generation is terrible and makes this useless in M+ [the content I’m assuming it was intended for].
Warrior of Elune- This spell has other characteristics that make it the most interesting on the tier. Mainly 3 free movement globals and the potential to build quickly to assist with burst when needed. If this tier stays the same it would be nice if it’s AsP gen was higher than NB.
Force of Nature- All around not great. Still doesn’t scale? 15 AsP over 10s for a 1min CD seems low. Still feels like a talent intended for Necrotic or something. TLDR; too niche.
Talent Tier Overview: Everything is flat AsP generation and nothing scales with gear.

Tiger Dash- Would be great to be able to cast this without activating cat form. It’s a lot more wasted GCDs than Displacer Beast was if you intend to travel a similar distance.
Wild Charge- Even though we have the abilities in different forms we use it just like Hunter’s use Disengage. Seeing as Disengage was removed from the GCD I still feel like this spell deserves the same treatment considering the other uses for it require us to use at least 1 GCD to change form anyway.

Soul of the Forest- Still seems like a good talent, especially early on with low gear and it adds a small quality of life bonus for Starfall.
Twin Moons- Underwhelming for the tier and seems further crippled by the other tiers. Explanation below in tier overview section. Also, unable to test because it is not currently hitting an additional target for me.
Incarnation- Overall, I’m ok with this talent.
Talent Tier Overview: I still feel like the intention of this tier is to fit certain situations, ie SotF for Starfall cleave, Incarn for ST, and Twin Moons for spread cleave...issue is Twin Moons is just a 20y cleave making it compete directly with SotF. In most cases where SotF is useful Stellar Drift is useful due to the movement/dmg/increased Starfall range. This makes Twin Moons even less attractive. The suggestion to make this interact with Sunfire and Stellar Flare is good so that it can better fill a spread cleave niche.

Starlord- I’m glad to see this make it into our talent tree. Gives us something to pay attention to in our rotation.
Stellar Drift- Arguably still my favorite talent. Really nothing to complain about here, I think it fits this area in the talent tree well.
Stellar Flare- Would be cool to have another talent interact with this. Would definitely make it more appealing.

Shooting Stars- Still feels decent on AoE. AsP gen is still feeling a bit low in general for AoE but I know this talent was nerfed to keep this tier competitive.
Fury of Elune- Cool concept but the CD feels a bit long and awkward to utilize for burst AoE.
New Moon- Massively helps the feeling of the single target rotation.
Talent Tier Overview: AsP generation is improved but still feels a little slow. Part of this is my testing gear optimization but the Tier 15 talents having some ability to scale would be nice. I feel you guys meant SS to be for sustained AoE, FoE for burst, and New Moon for ST but I don’t think the tuning for FoE is quite right to achieve that.

Overall Review: *Disclaimer* I haven’t checked the math on these heavily but since there is definitely still tuning to be done I’m commenting more on the overall feel. AsP gen still feels a little slow, especially for AoE. Sustained AoE has traditionally been our niche and it doesn’t feel like we’re performing exceptionally at it at all. On the flip side our burst AoE still isn’t great with the long CD on FoE and our ST is a little low (again pending #’s tuning). I would expect our strength as a spec to be more obvious at this stage but I will update this post as I do more testing.
05/24/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Delekii
I wish stellar drift could be replaced with another talent that impacts single target but doesn't drastically alter the base rotation, but I dont really see another good place for it either.


Swapping Stellar Drift with Incarnation should do that?
I do like that SotF and SD are on different rows, and I think those two work closely together for heavy movement while not crippling us in aoe or st. We’ll see as things move along with that.

I had issue with Starlord for a couple reasons, but it could just be skill cap and getting used to the build. You ideally want to pump out three Starsurges in quick succession, but I found planning for that was rough. Building AP with SW/LS now gives chances for empowerments and two big rules are not capping AP and not capping empowerments. Only two SSs are possible back to back anyway, but it seems like the setup stumbles over itself in that regard.

With T20, it was admittedly easier; the buff lasted longer, stacked more, and the increased AP pool and lack of procs allowed the “downtime” between SS casts to be used on the six empowerments we would rack up. With SL, it basically seems like a lot of work for little payout
05/24/2018 11:08 PMPosted by Mizudaisho
05/24/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Delekii
I wish stellar drift could be replaced with another talent that impacts single target but doesn't drastically alter the base rotation, but I dont really see another good place for it either.


Swapping Stellar Drift with Incarnation should do that?
It would, except that then you can take sotf with stellar drift, and that sucks :(
Has anyone tried any pvp content? Moonkin gained access to "thorns" pvp honor talent now, correct?

Still seems weird to have such a long CD on moonmoon.

While I really like the working into talents of shoulder and helm legiondaries, I would still prefer to see the wrist (Oneth's Intuition) brought into the options, as this is by far the best feel for playstyle and flexibility of moonkin imo. This might also alleviate some of the gripes about ST versus AOE, as the procs could provide some more flexibility for boss versus trash pulls (and let's face it, procs would be more fun and create a more varied playstyle).
05/25/2018 03:29 AMPosted by Bishopx
Has anyone tried any pvp content? Moonkin gained access to "thorns" pvp honor talent now, correct?

Still seems weird to have such a long CD on moonmoon.

While I really like the working into talents of shoulder and helm legiondaries, I would still prefer to see the wrist (Oneth's Intuition) brought into the options, as this is by far the best feel for playstyle and flexibility of moonkin imo. This might also alleviate some of the gripes about ST versus AOE, as the procs could provide some more flexibility for boss versus trash pulls (and let's face it, procs would be more fun and create a more varied playstyle).


OI type procs were shifted to our builders to give Lunar Strike/Solar Wrath a more dynamic synergy. I was a big OI fan, but it's been repurposed for our builders, so it's unlikely to return in its Legion iteration.
Yeah the OI shift to builders actually isn't a bad change. While I'm gonna miss being able to bank a SF for movement, I think the shift was twofold, in that it prevented SD from being a set-and-forget talent as well as giving some very welcome interaction to SW/LS. One thing I'd like to see (and I don't quite know how to address this) is that unless a weakaura is present it's very difficult to tell when one of the builders generates an empowerment for the other. I remember the lunar and solar eclipse animations from the eclipse bar mechanic and I feel like that would fit well, but it would be amazing if they found a way to indicate charges as well.

Along those lines, do we have a visual cue for anything other than owlkin frenzy? Seems like other specs and classes have those visuals pretty integrated into their gameplay, at least more than balance seems to.
I'm glad about the change to LS/SW but it's not as impactful as I thought.

The change to eclipse gives the appearance of increased complexity but actually removes it. As long as you cast whichever empowerment has more charges and wrath with no empowerments, you're probably doing the vast majority of your damage in that regard.

Wrath is slightly stronger so you might want to hold it at 2 for priority targets but otherwise it's nearly the exact same, only now you can freely use lunar charges as you have them since wrath is the same or better for aoe.

It means that the charges won't cleanly line up and the cadance of the spec will vary based on those procs but is that enough? Not sure. I think the mechanical changes to talents are much more impactful; the changes to eclipse and empowerment procs are not particularly meaningful. Highest charges > Wrath (ST) or LS (AoE) is basically the builder paradigm now.
Why are people still talking about starlord as if its a talent still? I thought Seph said its baseline now.

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