[Feedback] Balance Druid: Rotation & Talents

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05/30/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Grizlee
As many have said before tigers dash and renewal need a change. Tigers dash cd needs to be reduced to 30 seconds or not replace dash. As for renewal I don't really have any good ideas for it other than remove it. Even if the heal was increased I would still see myself taking wild charge in almost all situations. Maybe replace it with a talent that interacts with barkskin like increasing its dmg reduction?


Even with a reduction to 30s tigers dash wouldn't be worth it over 15s wild charge, and especially not when it replaces dash.

Wild charge should just be baselined, renewal should probably be removed from that tier (or all together) and two different mobility talents on the same level of tigers dash should be implemented.
Unless they had an immunity to snares, loss of control effects, etc. tiger dash is bad.
05/30/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Verze
Unless they had an immunity to snares, loss of control effects, etc. tiger dash is bad.


I think a better way to put it is, without those things it's purely a pve talent.
05/30/2018 11:52 AMPosted by Dumb
05/30/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Grizlee
As many have said before tigers dash and renewal need a change. Tigers dash cd needs to be reduced to 30 seconds or not replace dash. As for renewal I don't really have any good ideas for it other than remove it. Even if the heal was increased I would still see myself taking wild charge in almost all situations. Maybe replace it with a talent that interacts with barkskin like increasing its dmg reduction?


Even with a reduction to 30s tigers dash wouldn't be worth it over 15s wild charge, and especially not when it replaces dash.

Wild charge should just be baselined, renewal should probably be removed from that tier (or all together) and two different mobility talents on the same level of tigers dash should be implemented.
I totally agree, I just don't see blizzard making wild charge baseline in bfa.
05/29/2018 11:44 PMPosted by Hushkawnek
The thought is probably pointless to voice, but I would love to have seen a set of talents that cause us to approach our spenders (or maybe even just SS) slightly differently. Basically, have our new Starlord, and then two others that encourage dumping in a different manner.

T21 bonus - MF/SF damage is increased X% for 6 seconds after SS/SF is cast
  • As opposed to Starlord where you'd frontload casts, this encourages you to pace them out and maximize buff uptime


  • I would hate to play with that tier set again. Starlord is not where it should be yet, but I prefer starlord's haste to t21 4pc.
    Both don't feel that great, but I would hate to have to spec in that t21 4pc after playing it for almost a year even tho it does not feel good to play.
    05/30/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Grizlee
    Affinity tier
    I think we should have some of the abilities locked behind the affinity talents returned to baseline spells and the talents replaced with the 90 tier talents we had in mop like Heart of the Wild, Natures Vigil, and Dream of Cenarius


    I like the idea of having affinities also add utility CDs - like Nature's Vigil (% of your damage becomes a smart heal for random friendly) for Resto, Survival Instincts for Guardian, and Stampeding Roar for Feral (and Innervate for Balance Affinities in other specs?).

    Going from WoD to Legion was a big hit to boomkin utility - losing Ursol's Vortex, Cyclone in PvE, Nature's Vigil, Stampeding Roar, each one of those would have been great for M+. Innervate is nice but does not make up for losing 4 baseline abilities, and Hibernate/Soothe look to be incredibly niche.
    Hey guys, I just wanted to give some analysis on a point that I believe is overlooked.

    Shooting Stars and AOE interaction:

    This talent is incredibly problematic as a whole. So firstly it is only opportune for you to take on 4+ targets. That's fine. However on 10 Targets with Twin Moons you no longer have the globals available to be able to maintain 100% uptime on starfall. It drops to about 95%, because you use so many GCD's applying Moonfire and SHS doesnt give enough return on the cost to spend those Moonfires.

    The issue is that you get GCD locked on not being able to be able to apply enough moonfires and be able to cast enough lunar strikes in order to be able to sustain 1 Starfall down at all times. So you sacrifice casting moonfire in order to maintain that starfall. This either seems like an oversight, or a horrible design on 10 - 15 targets whenever M+ is an actual end game.
    05/31/2018 01:15 PMPosted by Tettles
    Hey guys, I just wanted to give some analysis on a point that I believe is overlooked.

    Shooting Stars and AOE interaction:

    This talent is incredibly problematic as a whole. So firstly it is only opportune for you to take on 4+ targets. That's fine. However on 10 Targets with Twin Moons you no longer have the globals available to be able to maintain 100% uptime on starfall. It drops to about 95%, because you use so many GCD's applying Moonfire and SHS doesnt give enough return on the cost to spend those Moonfires.

    The issue is that you get GCD locked on not being able to be able to apply enough moonfires and be able to cast enough lunar strikes in order to be able to sustain 1 Starfall down at all times. So you sacrifice casting moonfire in order to maintain that starfall. This either seems like an oversight, or a horrible design on 10 - 15 targets whenever M+ is an actual end game.


    05/30/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Gebuz


    Astral Power income and pacing
    I think the pacing of the single target rotation is in a good spot. Any suggestions I do make that would increase the Astral Power income for single target would likely need to be compensated by reducing the income from other sources or we might run into issues with high amounts of overcapped empowerments at low haste.

    For AOE I think we have an issue. Because of how little resource Moonfire and Sunfire generate compared to Lunar Strike or Solar Wrath, we end up with less Astral Power during AOE than single target. Shooting Stars did a great job at making up for that in Legion, but it was also an absolutely required talent for AOE because of that. With the nerfed Shooting Stars in BFA it’s nearly impossible to keep both dots and Starfall up. The only thing that allows us to do it is high haste, as Starfall duration is not reduced by haste and Shooting Stars + Moonfire/Sunfire double dips with haste (more ticks and shorter cast time).

    I really think Shooting Stars needs to be baseline for our AOE to function properly. It simply isn’t fun to have less resources available when AOEing than playing a standard single target rotation, particularly not when we are used to more targets -> more resources (it’s been like that since shooting stars was first introduced in Cataclysm).


    Gebuz actually talked about it briefly in his overview of the balance druid yesterday. Our aoe is obviously lackluster right now and needs some help because as you said, we lack ressources for massives pulls and our burst aoe is non-existent. We lost our niche when we lost multiple astral power source for aoe including ShS with the legion version that gives more astral power.
    I'd really like to see warrior of elune be 3 charges of 1 lunar strike on a 15 second cooldown, just make it a little more reliable
    05/31/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Liandryl

    Gebuz actually talked about it briefly in his overview of the balance druid yesterday. Our aoe is obviously lackluster right now and needs some help because as you said, we lack ressources for massives pulls and our burst aoe is non-existent. We lost our niche when we lost multiple astral power source for aoe including ShS with the legion version that gives more astral power.


    Yeah, our AOE generation issues aren't just a M+ thing. The generation issues are quite apparent 4 targets too. Whenever there are this many targets and you are talented into Stellar Flare, there just isn't enough globals to be able to generate enough AP. I'm fairly convinced that this iteration of moonkin just does not have enough globals on AOE to tend to the amount of ramp it needs.
    How do people feel about Renewal, Tiger Dash, and Wild Charge?
    Never really gotten the opportunity to use Renewal, since movement options are always better. It has no business being on a movement oriented row. It just can't compete. Conceptually though, i think it's strong.

    Tiger's dash feels okay to use. But a 45 sec CD is way too long. Displacer Beast had a 30 second CD and was better. Tiger's Dash should have at most a 30 second CD.

    I've never liked Wild Charge. I know it's good, but disengaging as a Moonkin feels weird. Seems like a relic of class homogeny. If they insist on keeping the gcd on this ability, they could at least bake in flap for the duration.

    ~flapping away now
    I've never actually used Renewal. Movement options are generally always better (or preferred at the very least). It also seems like a strange row to be on considering the other talents.

    Wild Charge is alright, and probably the go-to since Tiger's Dash has such a long cool down. If I were going to take Tiger's Dash over anything it'd have to have a shorter cool down at the very least.
    I've only been using Tiger Dash for the quirky burst of speed during travel. I do hurt when I need an extra speed bump to find TD is on cooldown and I don't have Dash. It's obviously designed to nerf DB while maintaining the feel but as soon as there's a slow in play, it becomes a 45s wasted ability that the blink of DB didn't have. On that note, if the "skip" of blinking was what they wanted removed, I'm all in favor of snare immunities for TD's duration.

    I do need to test and get accustomed to Wild Charge myself. It obviously has overwhelming versatility and a far shorter cooldown, and I really have to think that familiarity with one of the other two on the tier is the only reason to stop change. As much as I want to see it off the GCD (since every counterpart ability is), I think it causes its utility to shoot through the roof, no? That is, you could macro every instance of it to charge or disengage or leap on command, regardless of form?

    Renewal meanwhile... I just don't know about it. We've been known for mobility but monks and DHs can smoke us now, and it just makes no sense at all to choose Renewal rather than some sort of bump in mobility.

    The tier is just so wonky. WC is just so absurdly versatile and powerful that I can't help but think it should be baseline. But that brings the problem of what to replace it with and I have nothing simple enough to make sense.
    Not many people would choose healing over mobility on a class that already has access to baseline heals and the option to talent into getting Swiftmend.

    Renewal's talent spot would be much better served by offering a defensive ability (Ironbark, Survival Instincts?) to prevent incoming damage than as a reactive, long-cooldown heal.
    Renewal should be baked into Resto Affinity.

    Wild Charge is versatile and low cool down, seems like the best option. You keep Dash and gain various ways of moving that suits whatever situation is better for you. If it doesn't require you to shapeshift, you don't need to shapeshift out of Boomie.

    Tiger Dash has too much opportunity cost by sacrificing Dash, requiring cat form and having a 45s cooldown. While I'm sure there's a few scenarios where it'll become handy, I assume Wild Charge can largely accomplish the same thing since the extended distance is rarely relevant.

    I'm likely just to stick 100% with Wild Charge at all times, just like how Displacer is pretty much the go-to nowadays.
    Wait is Starlord bugged currently? I thought that the talent was a fall-off stack type buff, with it stacking up to 3 times without renewing the duration, but still each individual stack falling off on its own. I would be so dissapointed if its intended to work as it is now (the buff expires and all stacks are lost).
    06/05/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Vethan
    Wait is Starlord bugged currently? I thought that the talent was a fall-off stack type buff, with it stacking up to 3 times without renewing the duration, but still each individual stack falling off on its own. I would be so dissapointed if its intended to work as it is now (the buff expires and all stacks are lost).


    That's how the t20 4pc set bonus, which it's modeled after, worked. It's designed to promote a resource-pooling, buff management style of play.
    06/05/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Comfybundles
    06/05/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Vethan
    Wait is Starlord bugged currently? I thought that the talent was a fall-off stack type buff, with it stacking up to 3 times without renewing the duration, but still each individual stack falling off on its own. I would be so dissapointed if its intended to work as it is now (the buff expires and all stacks are lost).


    That's how the t20 4pc set bonus, which it's modeled after, worked. It's designed to promote a resource-pooling, buff management style of play.


    I see. Thats quite sad. I guess ill be going stellar flare then.
    05/30/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Liandryl
    05/29/2018 11:44 PMPosted by Hushkawnek
    The thought is probably pointless to voice, but I would love to have seen a set of talents that cause us to approach our spenders (or maybe even just SS) slightly differently. Basically, have our new Starlord, and then two others that encourage dumping in a different manner.

    T21 bonus - MF/SF damage is increased X% for 6 seconds after SS/SF is cast
  • As opposed to Starlord where you'd frontload casts, this encourages you to pace them out and maximize buff uptime


  • I would hate to play with that tier set again. Starlord is not where it should be yet, but I prefer starlord's haste to t21 4pc.
    Both don't feel that great, but I would hate to have to spec in that t21 4pc after playing it for almost a year even tho it does not feel good to play.

    But that's the beauty of it. In the end, it should be a choice of gameplay, and the proposal I had had two other options that addressed separate styles that are far easier to tune against one another because they would affect the exact same spells - SS and SF.

    The other spells can be adjusted, but the mechanism to save and fire vs to spread them out vs to systematically alternate different abilities would hopefully be the same (or close) in a ST setting vs an AOE setting. If not, dumb all three down to just SS to keep the playing field level. ST vs AOE on a tier is far more of a detriment because you DO have to change depending on the fight.

    Talents should not matter for numbers, but they should for gameplay. That's why our CC row is probably the best one, even if some say ME or MB are too niche.

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