Leaving Warcraft - Feedback

General Discussion
This post is feedback, now that my subscription is going to lapse. It's not meant to be a rant on "how the game is terrible now" and "how the devs ruin everything". I don't believe that. It's simply explanation on the issues and decisions that lead me to decide my subscription is better off elsewhere. This will be a long post, my apologies.

I have truly enjoyed the time I had with World of Warcraft. I freely admit I am not one of the "old guard" that played since Vanilla or BC or Wrath at the height of the game's popularity. I joined at a low point - about the time Siege of Orgrimmar had been released at the request of a friend who wanted to play with me after City of Heroes had been murdered by publisher NCsoft.

I knew very little about the lore of the game going into it. I knew only of the Horde and Alliance being at war and there seemed to be three factions of undead (Scourge, Forsaken, and Ebon Blade) that all had different philosophies. The lore of the undead particularly interested me, and my initial main was a Death Knight after I had levelled a character to 55 to unlock them. Some time after joining, I decided I wanted to get context for all of the lore and purchased Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne to play through and learn the story from. It very quickly became one of my favorite games, truth be told, and it brought me to be fully invested in the story and the game.

I did not start raiding until the end of WoD because I was slow at leveling at gearing up (to a hilarious degree, I admit). Hellfire Citadel was an exercise in frustration because of its length of stay and the fact that I was maining Demonology Warlock at the time (to spite its nerf, I believe, since I enjoy playing the underdog at times).

Despite the difficulty of my class and limitations of its nerf, I performed well in my raid by pushing myself in every battle to perform as best I could and squeeze every ounce of efficiency from my character that I was physically capable of. I am by no means a great warlock player like Not, but I was good enough to approach higher tiers of my raid's DPS meters in Heroic by sheer effort where the other classes seemed to have much less effort. My time with Legion's raiding was significantly better since I was not playing the worst spec in the game anymore. I could go on more about my history with the game, but this is just background for context on my issues with the game. They will undoubtably be a minority voice in opinion at this time, but I will not pretend that I am a pillar of the community with a list of demands - merely a customer and disappointed fan that wishes to express in full why I am unsubscribing.

1. First and foremost, the direction of Warcraft's story no longer holds my interest. As I said, I am not a long-standing player, so my perspective is tinged differently. However, having read how much fo the story developed over time and having played through Warcraft 3 multiple times at this point, I feel there is a massive dissonance in the quality of storytelling. Warcraft 3 was by no means the Citizen Kane, but it had a good story with interesting characters that had some level of humanity to each of them and had the markings of a strong fantasy series.

However, the current direction of the writing does not reflect that, in my humble opinion. The mystery of the Faceless Ones, the Old Ones, magic, and the Well of Eternity were things that added to the game holding my interest. The explanations do not hold up to the mystery, to be frank. I enjoyed the story more when I did not know. This is something I feel that other fantasy stories handle better through disagreeing scholars, lack of clarity on the true nature of magical phenomena, and simple explanations such as a great watcher in the water that grew in the dark depths of the world and simply existing.

The game's approach to morality also seems all over the map. Quite frankly, Warcrafts 1-3 were not 'grey and grey' morality stories. They were pretty black and white, but with enough shades of grey in the middle that such characters stood out and made the setting more interesting by their unique approach. The best example I can name is Ilidan Stormrage. The story of Warcraft 3 demonstrated quite clearly that he had good traits - particularly his dedication to Tyrande - but he was also tempted and blinded by arrogance, hunger for magical power, and a desire to be great. He had no real desire to destroy the Burning Legion - only if it benefited him in the process. He was the Betrayer - a wild card that will play all sides to further his own hoarding of power and knowledge and his own survival.

This sort of attitude juxtaposed against Malfurion and the rest of the Night Elves is what made him stand out. If every Night Elf was like Ilidan, Ilidan would cease to be interesting. The Ilidari were fascinating because they were xenophobic hoarders of forbidden knowledge and dark secrets. They were a strange union of unlikely allies combined with a Gothic aesthetic and a lack of moral constraint for the sake of their own survival, just like Ilidan was. Demon hunters in general could have a plethora of agendas and methods to attaining their power, from genuine desire to slay demons to a desire to wield their power selfishly.

Cut to Legion and the Ilidari have tossed aside their self-preservation and hunger for power. They've become an organized military that is now the only true defense against the Burning Legion, seeking to defeat them with an almost suicidal zeal. They became Ilidan Space Marines. While one could say that they are morally grey because of their choice to use evil powers, the writing and the game itself very clearly depict Ilidan and his followers in a heroic light, despite any projection by the player that this is not the case. Those who question and disagree with Ilidan's methods are quickly proven false or evil in their own right. This honestly does not make me interested in them any longer.

Furthermore, the forces in the universe that originally represented benign virtues such as honor, justice, mercy, moderation, and compassion, are now being painted as a morally grey element when the very universe did not originally support that line of thinking save in rare exceptions where outside forces (like a Dread Lord) twisted those very virtues to tainted extremes. In my honest opinion, trying to cram in a grey and grey morality to a setting that did not originally support it makes for poor storytelling and a myriad of internal inconsistencies. The Horde and Alliance do not factor into this because the entire concept is that they are both supposed to be good-natured and circumstance bids them both to be rivals in war. You can have good characters in conflict with each other without it being a story with grey morality. Unfortunately, there seems to be a misunderstanding that "grey" and "complex" in storytelling is synonymous with "good" storytelling. Unfortunately, a complex mess is still a mess - and it requires far more effort to clean.

Between characters that are no longer themselves without proper character development (like Tyrande, Thrall, and Malfurion) and a lack of consistency between the tone of stories (We no longer need guardians, but we need Chosen Ones but we don't need dragon guardians but we need our Baby Titan Egg Guardian) no longer holds my interest.

2. Second among my reasons for leaving is that Blizzard and I clearly have different ideas when it comes to philosophy of gameplay. Blizzard is well known for their nerf bat. If they see what they think is something too powerful, they will smack it down - generally to a very underpowered state. This has evolved into a cycle of various classes getting the nerf bat over others - with ups and downs that change the "meta" in very swift, broad stroke patches. I'm not saying nerfs aren't always unwarranted, but it's far too often for my taste.

I understand that no game balance is perfect (and perfect game balance is boring), but I'm not a huge fan of my effectiveness being dictated by what the flavor of the month is. Furthermore, I do not find it appealing that talent swapping was made harder and more pricey, considering that some classes must talent swap consistently between fights and others reliably stick to one build for most of the raid. Admittedly tooting my own horn, I thought myself clever when I used Soul Harvest and Kil'jaeden's Cunning to ramp up my AoE DPS during Kormrok in Hellfire Citadel. These traits were not taken, generally, because they had more specific functionality and were considered suboptimal. However, in this particular instance, they proved to be effective for freeing my raid from the Grasping Hands. In Legion, however, I feel like there are far too many trap choices in talent trees that are clearly bad and are never have moments to be cleverly utilized. In fact, it seems to me that clever ideas are punished by the looming nerf bat for not sticking with a predictable meta that Blizzard expects to manage.

Reluctantly, I must compare Warcraft with City of Heroes. Later on in its development, clever building of a character and skill was well rewarded. Classes that were behind the curve received buffs to make them on par with the others (see Blaster snipe powers and the Stalkers' assassinate buffs). Blizzard has danced back and forth between the "bring the player not the class" and the "bring the class not the player" philosophies. Frankly, I believe that there is a solid middle ground between the two where every class has a unique and strong toolkit full of options and it should require a skilled player to fully utilize it. Neither extreme is any good. A hunter should not be "babby" mode and a shaman should not be "hard mode". They should each have distinct playstyles that require being adaptable. The difficulties of raids exist because of the skill gaps between players, and there should be no shame in there being players who can simply utilize their kits better than others. As I said before, I don't claim to be a great player. I simply had one clever idea that other people also had, but I feel those moments growing ever farther and fewer between.

I compare Paragon and Blizzard to two Dungeon Masters running a D&D game. In each game, the group is using various spells and abilities to bypass parts of the dungeon to get to the boss battle. Blizzard is the kind of DM that bans spells and builds "anti-teleportation/flight/x" fields in an ever-growing arms race with the players, showing favoritism to certain party members in the campaign. Paragon was the DM that has a variety of challenges and allows the players to utilize their characters, yet also has a variety of challenges that allows each of the party members to cleverly implement their skill set and have a spotlight through their own merits.

3. Lastly, I find that Blizzard's approach to their community is somewhat lacking. I realize that not all feedback is good feedback, and the community does often have issues expressing their feedback in a civil, mature manner. However, there are very clearly many instances where people do voice concerns - particularly on test realms - and they are ignored. This has happened multiple times with expansion testing. Classes have been broken and half-finished despite mass attempt to draw attention to them, bugs reported on early having gone untouched, and beta tests seem to have become a tourism rather than being allowed the space they need to prepare every aspect of the patch for launch. Patches have been done to raids *as people were running it*. This is inexcusable, in my opinion.

Testers need to be trusted and cooperated with to solve issues with the game, not treated like journalists. If your testers aren't providing good feedback, then you should give the alpha/beta invites to people who will - people you know will challenge you to make this product as best it can possibly be before it is put on stage. If giving beta to pre-orders is the problem, then you need to cut that pre-order bonus out. It's not healthy for the game. It should not be a meme that the testing phase is an excuse to delay fixing an issue.

There are few other minor problems that I have with Warcraft, but these are the major problems that affected my decision to unsubscribe. I hope that the feedback proves useful, but I am also skeptical that this thread will be anything more than buried or become a flaming pit in the end. Still, I wanted to at least make the effort because I do genuinely love this game. Unfortunately, it's a relationship that needs to be broken up because it's not going anywhere good for me any longer.

Best wishes. I hope that BFA is a successful launch.
06/10/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Malkithia
This post is feedback, now that my subscription is going to lapse. It's not meant to be a rant on "how the game is terrible now" and "how the devs ruin everything". I don't believe that. It's simply explanation on the issues and decisions that lead me to decide my subscription is better off elsewhere. This will be a long post, my apologies.

I have truly enjoyed the time I had with World of Warcraft. I freely admit I am not one of the "old guard" that played since Vanilla or BC or Wrath at the height of the game's popularity. I joined at a low point - about the time Siege of Orgrimmar had been released at the request of a friend who wanted to play with me after City of Heroes had been murdered by publisher NCsoft.

I knew very little about the lore of the game going into it. I knew only of the Horde and Alliance being at war and there seemed to be three factions of undead (Scourge, Forsaken, and Ebon Blade) that all had different philosophies. The lore of the undead particularly interested me, and my initial main was a Death Knight after I had levelled a character to 55 to unlock them. Some time after joining, I decided I wanted to get context for all of the lore and purchased Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne to play through and learn the story from. It very quickly became one of my favorite games, truth be told, and it brought me to be fully invested in the story and the game.

I did not start raiding until the end of WoD because I was slow at leveling at gearing up (to a hilarious degree, I admit). Hellfire Citadel was an exercise in frustration because of its length of stay and the fact that I was maining Demonology Warlock at the time (to spite its nerf, I believe, since I enjoy playing the underdog at times).

Despite the difficulty of my class and limitations of its nerf, I performed well in my raid by pushing myself in every battle to perform as best I could and squeeze every ounce of efficiency from my character that I was physically capable of. I am by no means a great warlock player like Not, but I was good enough to approach higher tiers of my raid's DPS meters in Heroic by sheer effort where the other classes seemed to have much less effort. My time with Legion's raiding was significantly better since I was not playing the worst spec in the game anymore. I could go on more about my history with the game, but this is just background for context on my issues with the game. They will undoubtably be a minority voice in opinion at this time, but I will not pretend that I am a pillar of the community with a list of demands - merely a customer and disappointed fan that wishes to express in full why I am unsubscribing.

1. First and foremost, the direction of Warcraft's story no longer holds my interest. As I said, I am not a long-standing player, so my perspective is tinged differently. However, having read how much fo the story developed over time and having played through Warcraft 3 multiple times at this point, I feel there is a massive dissonance in the quality of storytelling. Warcraft 3 was by no means the Citizen Kane, but it had a good story with interesting characters that had some level of humanity to each of them and had the markings of a strong fantasy series.

However, the current direction of the writing does not reflect that, in my humble opinion. The mystery of the Faceless Ones, the Old Ones, magic, and the Well of Eternity were things that added to the game holding my interest. The explanations do not hold up to the mystery, to be frank. I enjoyed the story more when I did not know. This is something I feel that other fantasy stories handle better through disagreeing scholars, lack of clarity on the true nature of magical phenomena, and simple explanations such as a great watcher in the water that grew in the dark depths of the world and simply existing.

The game's approach to morality also seems all over the map. Quite frankly, Warcrafts 1-3 were not 'grey and grey' morality stories. They were pretty black and white, but with enough shades of grey in the middle that such characters stood out and made the setting more interesting by their unique approach. The best example I can name is Ilidan Stormrage. The story of Warcraft 3 demonstrated quite clearly that he had good traits - particularly his dedication to Tyrande - but he was also tempted and blinded by arrogance, hunger for magical power, and a desire to be great. He had no real desire to destroy the Burning Legion - only if it benefited him in the process. He was the Betrayer - a wild card that will play all sides to further his own hoarding of power and knowledge and his own survival.

This sort of attitude juxtaposed against Malfurion and the rest of the Night Elves is what made him stand out. If every Night Elf was like Ilidan, Ilidan would cease to be interesting. The Ilidari were fascinating because they were xenophobic hoarders of forbidden knowledge and dark secrets. They were a strange union of unlikely allies combined with a Gothic aesthetic and a lack of moral constraint for the sake of their own survival, just like Ilidan was. Demon hunters in general could have a plethora of agendas and methods to attaining their power, from genuine desire to slay demons to a desire to wield their power selfishly.

Cut to Legion and the Ilidari have tossed aside their self-preservation and hunger for power. They've become an organized military that is now the only true defense against the Burning Legion, seeking to defeat them with an almost suicidal zeal. They became Ilidan Space Marines. While one could say that they are morally grey because of their choice to use evil powers, the writing and the game itself very clearly depict Ilidan and his followers in a heroic light, despite any projection by the player that this is not the case. Those who question and disagree with Ilidan's methods are quickly proven false or evil in their own right. This honestly does not make me interested in them any longer.

Furthermore, the forces in the universe that originally represented benign virtues such as honor, justice, mercy, moderation, and compassion, are now being painted as a morally grey element when the very universe did not originally support that line of thinking save in rare exceptions where outside forces (like a Dread Lord) twisted those very virtues to tainted extremes. In my honest opinion, trying to cram in a grey and grey morality to a setting that did not originally support it makes for poor storytelling and a myriad of internal inconsistencies. The Horde and Alliance do not factor into this because the entire concept is that they are both supposed to be good-natured and circumstance bids them both to be rivals in war. You can have good characters in conflict with each other without it being a story with grey morality. Unfortunately, there seems to be a misunderstanding that "grey" and "complex" in storytelling is synonymous with "good" storytelling. Unfortunately, a complex mess is still a mess - and it requires far more effort to clean.

Between characters that are no longer themselves without proper character development (like Tyrande, Thrall, and Malfurion) and a lack of consistency between the tone of stories (We no longer need guardians, but we need Chosen Ones but we don't need dragon guardians but we need our Baby Titan Egg Guardian) no longer holds my interest.

2. Second among my reasons for leaving is that Blizzard and I clearly have different ideas when it comes to philosophy of gameplay. Blizzard is well known for their nerf bat. If they see what they think is something too powerful, they will smack it down - generally to a very underpowered state. This has evolved into a cycle of various classes getting the nerf bat over others - with ups and downs that change the "meta" in very swift, broad stroke patches. I'm not saying nerfs aren't always unwarranted, but it's far too often for my taste.

I understand that no game balance is perfect (and perfect game balance is boring), but I'm not a huge fan of my effectiveness being dictated by what the flavor of the month is. Furthermore, I do not find it appealing that talent swapping was made harder and more pricey, considering that some classes must talent swap consistently between fights and others reliably stick to one build for most of the raid. Admittedly tooting my own horn, I thought myself clever when I used Soul Harvest and Kil'jaeden's Cunning to ramp up my AoE DPS during Kormrok in Hellfire Citadel. These traits were not taken, generally, because they had more specific functionality and were considered suboptimal. However, in this particular instance, they proved to be effective for freeing my raid from the Grasping Hands. In Legion, however, I feel like there are far too many trap choices in talent trees that are clearly bad and are never have moments to be cleverly utilized. In fact, it seems to me that clever ideas are punished by the looming nerf bat for not sticking with a predictable meta that Blizzard expects to manage.

Reluctantly, I must compare Warcraft with City of Heroes. Later on in its development, clever building of a character and skill was well rewarded. Classes that were behind the curve received buffs to make them on par with the others (see Blaster snipe powers and the Stalkers' assassinate buffs). Blizzard has danced back and forth between the "bring the player not the class" and the "bring the class not the player" philosophies. Frankly, I believe that there is a solid middle ground between the two where every class has a unique and strong toolkit full of options and it should require a skilled player to fully utilize it. Neither extreme is any good. A hunter should not be "babby" mode and a shaman should not be "hard mode". They should each have distinct playstyles that require being adaptable. The difficulties of raids exist because of the skill gaps between players, and there should be no shame in there being players who can simply utilize their kits better than others. As I said before, I don't claim to be a great player. I simply had one clever idea that other people also had, but I feel those moments growing ever farther and fewer between.

I compare Paragon and Blizzard to two Dungeon Masters running a D&D game. In each game, the group is using various spells and abilities to bypass parts of the dungeon to get to the boss battle. Blizzard is the kind of DM that bans spells and builds "anti-teleportation/flight/x" fields in an ever-growing arms race with the players, showing favoritism to certain party members in the campaign. Paragon was the DM that has a variety of challenges and allows the players to utilize their characters, yet also has a variety of challenges that allows each of the party members to cleverly implement their skill set and have a spotlight through their own merits.

3. Lastly, I find that Blizzard's approach to their community is somewhat lacking. I realize that not all feedback is good feedback, and the community does often have issues expressing their feedback in a civil, mature manner. However, there are very clearly many instances where people do voice concerns - particularly on test realms - and they are ignored. This has happened multiple times with expansion testing. Classes have been broken and half-finished despite mass attempt to draw attention to them, bugs reported on early having gone untouched, and beta tests seem to have become a tourism rather than being allowed the space they need to prepare every aspect of the patch for launch. Patches have been done to raids *as people were running it*. This is inexcusable, in my opinion.

Testers need to be trusted and cooperated with to solve issues with the game, not treated like journalists. If your testers aren't providing good feedback, then you should give the alpha/beta invites to people who will - people you know will challenge you to make this product as best it can possibly be before it is put on stage. If giving beta to pre-orders is the problem, then you need to cut that pre-order bonus out. It's not healthy for the game. It should not be a meme that the testing phase is an excuse to delay fixing an issue.

There are few other minor problems that I have with Warcraft, but these are the major problems that affected my decision to unsubscribe. I hope that the feedback proves useful, but I am also skeptical that this thread will be anything more than buried or become a flaming pit in the end. Still, I wanted to at least make the effort because I do genuinely love this game. Unfortunately, it's a relationship that needs to be broken up because it's not going anywhere good for me any longer.

Best wishes. I hope that BFA is a successful launch.

Well written post and I agree with all of it. I'm just too stubborn to give up on something I've put so much time in otherwise i'd be quitting alongside ya. May you find something entertaining to take the place of WoW. Oh and always stay classy.
I hope you find a game you enjoy! Good luck wherever you land !
Woah this is actually a worthy feedback leaving post, this is exactly how many if not most of us feel!, really well put!.
Good luck op. Very well thought out and constructive post.
It's their kickball, their back yard. If you don't like it, they really don't care. All you need to do is watch a few videos of them discussing the game, and the sour grapes faces when they are asked a question they don't want to address.

Your monthly sub will be covered by someone buying a $20 WoW token. Now if they lost 10,000 subs, they might actually show some concern.

I am sure you put a ton of time into the game, and hate to see it all flushed down the toilet. Just try to focus on the things that make you want to login and play.
Decent read OP.

I just don’t know how you could not love space marines though.
I instinctively wanted to laugh at your wall of text, but it was actually pretty on-mark. Hope you find something more enjoyable to spend your time on.
06/10/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Krs
Decent read OP.

I just don’t know how you could not love space marines though.


We Imperial Guard are more than capable of protecting Terra from the vile xenos and heretic without the disorganized attempts of you Astartes mutants! I don't need your fancy armor. All I need is a standard issue lasgun, a potato sack for armor, and a copy of the Uplifting Primer! /jk

Imperial Fists are my favorite chapter, followed by Salamanders.
06/10/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Malkithia
This post is feedback, now that my subscription is going to lapse. It's not meant to be a rant on "how the game is terrible now" and "how the devs ruin everything". I don't believe that. It's simply explanation on the issues and decisions that lead me to decide my subscription is better off elsewhere. This will be a long post, my apologies.

I have truly enjoyed the time I had with World of Warcraft. I freely admit I am not one of the "old guard" that played since Vanilla or BC or Wrath at the height of the game's popularity. I joined at a low point - about the time Siege of Orgrimmar had been released at the request of a friend who wanted to play with me after City of Heroes had been murdered by publisher NCsoft.

I knew very little about the lore of the game going into it. I knew only of the Horde and Alliance being at war and there seemed to be three factions of undead (Scourge, Forsaken, and Ebon Blade) that all had different philosophies. The lore of the undead particularly interested me, and my initial main was a Death Knight after I had levelled a character to 55 to unlock them. Some time after joining, I decided I wanted to get context for all of the lore and purchased Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne to play through and learn the story from. It very quickly became one of my favorite games, truth be told, and it brought me to be fully invested in the story and the game.

I did not start raiding until the end of WoD because I was slow at leveling at gearing up (to a hilarious degree, I admit). Hellfire Citadel was an exercise in frustration because of its length of stay and the fact that I was maining Demonology Warlock at the time (to spite its nerf, I believe, since I enjoy playing the underdog at times).

Despite the difficulty of my class and limitations of its nerf, I performed well in my raid by pushing myself in every battle to perform as best I could and squeeze every ounce of efficiency from my character that I was physically capable of. I am by no means a great warlock player like Not, but I was good enough to approach higher tiers of my raid's DPS meters in Heroic by sheer effort where the other classes seemed to have much less effort. My time with Legion's raiding was significantly better since I was not playing the worst spec in the game anymore. I could go on more about my history with the game, but this is just background for context on my issues with the game. They will undoubtably be a minority voice in opinion at this time, but I will not pretend that I am a pillar of the community with a list of demands - merely a customer and disappointed fan that wishes to express in full why I am unsubscribing.

1. First and foremost, the direction of Warcraft's story no longer holds my interest. As I said, I am not a long-standing player, so my perspective is tinged differently. However, having read how much fo the story developed over time and having played through Warcraft 3 multiple times at this point, I feel there is a massive dissonance in the quality of storytelling. Warcraft 3 was by no means the Citizen Kane, but it had a good story with interesting characters that had some level of humanity to each of them and had the markings of a strong fantasy series.

However, the current direction of the writing does not reflect that, in my humble opinion. The mystery of the Faceless Ones, the Old Ones, magic, and the Well of Eternity were things that added to the game holding my interest. The explanations do not hold up to the mystery, to be frank. I enjoyed the story more when I did not know. This is something I feel that other fantasy stories handle better through disagreeing scholars, lack of clarity on the true nature of magical phenomena, and simple explanations such as a great watcher in the water that grew in the dark depths of the world and simply existing.

The game's approach to morality also seems all over the map. Quite frankly, Warcrafts 1-3 were not 'grey and grey' morality stories. They were pretty black and white, but with enough shades of grey in the middle that such characters stood out and made the setting more interesting by their unique approach. The best example I can name is Ilidan Stormrage. The story of Warcraft 3 demonstrated quite clearly that he had good traits - particularly his dedication to Tyrande - but he was also tempted and blinded by arrogance, hunger for magical power, and a desire to be great. He had no real desire to destroy the Burning Legion - only if it benefited him in the process. He was the Betrayer - a wild card that will play all sides to further his own hoarding of power and knowledge and his own survival.

This sort of attitude juxtaposed against Malfurion and the rest of the Night Elves is what made him stand out. If every Night Elf was like Ilidan, Ilidan would cease to be interesting. The Ilidari were fascinating because they were xenophobic hoarders of forbidden knowledge and dark secrets. They were a strange union of unlikely allies combined with a Gothic aesthetic and a lack of moral constraint for the sake of their own survival, just like Ilidan was. Demon hunters in general could have a plethora of agendas and methods to attaining their power, from genuine desire to slay demons to a desire to wield their power selfishly.

Cut to Legion and the Ilidari have tossed aside their self-preservation and hunger for power. They've become an organized military that is now the only true defense against the Burning Legion, seeking to defeat them with an almost suicidal zeal. They became Ilidan Space Marines. While one could say that they are morally grey because of their choice to use evil powers, the writing and the game itself very clearly depict Ilidan and his followers in a heroic light, despite any projection by the player that this is not the case. Those who question and disagree with Ilidan's methods are quickly proven false or evil in their own right. This honestly does not make me interested in them any longer.

Furthermore, the forces in the universe that originally represented benign virtues such as honor, justice, mercy, moderation, and compassion, are now being painted as a morally grey element when the very universe did not originally support that line of thinking save in rare exceptions where outside forces (like a Dread Lord) twisted those very virtues to tainted extremes. In my honest opinion, trying to cram in a grey and grey morality to a setting that did not originally support it makes for poor storytelling and a myriad of internal inconsistencies. The Horde and Alliance do not factor into this because the entire concept is that they are both supposed to be good-natured and circumstance bids them both to be rivals in war. You can have good characters in conflict with each other without it being a story with grey morality. Unfortunately, there seems to be a misunderstanding that "grey" and "complex" in storytelling is synonymous with "good" storytelling. Unfortunately, a complex mess is still a mess - and it requires far more effort to clean.

Between characters that are no longer themselves without proper character development (like Tyrande, Thrall, and Malfurion) and a lack of consistency between the tone of stories (We no longer need guardians, but we need Chosen Ones but we don't need dragon guardians but we need our Baby Titan Egg Guardian) no longer holds my interest.

2. Second among my reasons for leaving is that Blizzard and I clearly have different ideas when it comes to philosophy of gameplay. Blizzard is well known for their nerf bat. If they see what they think is something too powerful, they will smack it down - generally to a very underpowered state. This has evolved into a cycle of various classes getting the nerf bat over others - with ups and downs that change the "meta" in very swift, broad stroke patches. I'm not saying nerfs aren't always unwarranted, but it's far too often for my taste.

I understand that no game balance is perfect (and perfect game balance is boring), but I'm not a huge fan of my effectiveness being dictated by what the flavor of the month is. Furthermore, I do not find it appealing that talent swapping was made harder and more pricey, considering that some classes must talent swap consistently between fights and others reliably stick to one build for most of the raid. Admittedly tooting my own horn, I thought myself clever when I used Soul Harvest and Kil'jaeden's Cunning to ramp up my AoE DPS during Kormrok in Hellfire Citadel. These traits were not taken, generally, because they had more specific functionality and were considered suboptimal. However, in this particular instance, they proved to be effective for freeing my raid from the Grasping Hands. In Legion, however, I feel like there are far too many trap choices in talent trees that are clearly bad and are never have moments to be cleverly utilized. In fact, it seems to me that clever ideas are punished by the looming nerf bat for not sticking with a predictable meta that Blizzard expects to manage.

Reluctantly, I must compare Warcraft with City of Heroes. Later on in its development, clever building of a character and skill was well rewarded. Classes that were behind the curve received buffs to make them on par with the others (see Blaster snipe powers and the Stalkers' assassinate buffs). Blizzard has danced back and forth between the "bring the player not the class" and the "bring the class not the player" philosophies. Frankly, I believe that there is a solid middle ground between the two where every class has a unique and strong toolkit full of options and it should require a skilled player to fully utilize it. Neither extreme is any good. A hunter should not be "babby" mode and a shaman should not be "hard mode". They should each have distinct playstyles that require being adaptable. The difficulties of raids exist because of the skill gaps between players, and there should be no shame in there being players who can simply utilize their kits better than others. As I said before, I don't claim to be a great player. I simply had one clever idea that other people also had, but I feel those moments growing ever farther and fewer between.

I compare Paragon and Blizzard to two Dungeon Masters running a D&D game. In each game, the group is using various spells and abilities to bypass parts of the dungeon to get to the boss battle. Blizzard is the kind of DM that bans spells and builds "anti-teleportation/flight/x" fields in an ever-growing arms race with the players, showing favoritism to certain party members in the campaign. Paragon was the DM that has a variety of challenges and allows the players to utilize their characters, yet also has a variety of challenges that allows each of the party members to cleverly implement their skill set and have a spotlight through their own merits.

3. Lastly, I find that Blizzard's approach to their community is somewhat lacking. I realize that not all feedback is good feedback, and the community does often have issues expressing their feedback in a civil, mature manner. However, there are very clearly many instances where people do voice concerns - particularly on test realms - and they are ignored. This has happened multiple times with expansion testing. Classes have been broken and half-finished despite mass attempt to draw attention to them, bugs reported on early having gone untouched, and beta tests seem to have become a tourism rather than being allowed the space they need to prepare every aspect of the patch for launch. Patches have been done to raids *as people were running it*. This is inexcusable, in my opinion.

Testers need to be trusted and cooperated with to solve issues with the game, not treated like journalists. If your testers aren't providing good feedback, then you should give the alpha/beta invites to people who will - people you know will challenge you to make this product as best it can possibly be before it is put on stage. If giving beta to pre-orders is the problem, then you need to cut that pre-order bonus out. It's not healthy for the game. It should not be a meme that the testing phase is an excuse to delay fixing an issue.

There are few other minor problems that I have with Warcraft, but these are the major problems that affected my decision to unsubscribe. I hope that the feedback proves useful, but I am also skeptical that this thread will be anything more than buried or become a flaming pit in the end. Still, I wanted to at least make the effort because I do genuinely love this game. Unfortunately, it's a relationship that needs to be broken up because it's not going anywhere good for me any longer.

Best wishes. I hope that BFA is a successful launch.


TLDR but best of luck on whatever game u pick up next.
06/10/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Bgored
It's their kickball, their back yard. If you don't like it, they really don't care. All you need to do is watch a few videos of them discussing the game, and the sour grapes faces when they are asked a question they don't want to address.


Honestly, that wasn't always the case. That's the case as it stands now with this particular dev group, and for me, it's really turning me off of WoW. In both WoD and Legion, I spent more time unsubbed than subbed. I expect to do the same with BFA.

My main point is: there was a time in WoW when the devs were more open to player suggestions, responded more (without condescending sarcasm), and built different aspects of the game around different players.

Also, there are certain aspects of the game that I enjoy still. It's just that I find myself less interested in some of the main features of these xpacs compared to MoP, Cata, BC, or Wotlk. For instance, when I first joined in BC till the end of MoP, I spent a bulk of my time in random BGs grinding PvP sets - those days are dead.

But, hey, their game not mine. I know they don't miss my sub. Just voicing my two cents.
That was well written. Don't delete anything you might need later,
Wow, this was a very long post, but so well written, I did make it through. I think the main reason I kept reading was because you sound like me when I first started playing in early Wrath. The class and spec I chose for my main wasn't the best at the time (very close to the bottom of the dps scale actually), but I had such a great time with rotation and with exploration, and then with finding friends and a guild, and then doing dungeons and eventually raiding, that at first, it didn't matter to me. Looking back, I too feel that my learning and leveling process was slow to a pretty hilarious degree.

Your item #2 really resonates also, especially that, "I'm not a huge fan of my effectiveness being dictated by what the flavor of the month is." With work and family, I only really have time for one raiding main (if that), and barely enough attention for any alts. I have long been tired of not knowing whether my main will absolutely suck or be balls-to-the-wall each patch/expansion.

Thank you for taking the time to post, and good luck with your future endeavors.
This was a very well written and well thought out post, and I agree with virtually all of your points.

The biggest one for me is your last point. When I get bored I go play EQ or EQ2 for a while, usually at the end of the expansion, and the way the devs and admins talk to the playerbase is on the other end of the spectrum. It's always refreshing and it's always tempting to stay, even with an older game without as much game to play.

However, I can understand where the Blizzard devs coming from. WoW players can be fairly toxic (just look at these forums!) and I can't imagine having to deal with that day in and day out. It's no wonder the devs eventually leave. Players love to say whatever they like without regard, and unfortunately, that chases away both other players and development.

That being said, it's a business; and Blizzard should treat its players as customers. That would mean interacting with them without condescension, sarcasm or snark. If they would come down on toxic players a bit harder maybe they wouldn't have to deal with it so much.

As it is, we all deal with it, every day, and have to deal with them, too, treating us like filthy casuals.

It's not fun.
I enjoyed the read thank you very much for your thoughts.

Good luck!
Exactly how a a last post should be.

You’ll find another game op. If you play ps4 or Xbox 1 there’s a few titles to check out.
Lots of big releases this yr. I personally am looking forward to red dead redemption 2
Sorry but... tldr
Very well written, I just recently unsubbed one account and may be on this one as well but we'll see, I had already prepurchased BFA and in so have scrounged up enough gold to take my sub up until 09-14-18 and will know then if I will stay or if I will go.

I'm playing Beta now and have reported a few bugs that I have found not sure if I will like it or not as I'm just beginning it.

Good luck to you and I hope that you find the joy in your life.
Great post. I am playing everquest again as i always do during wows xpac lull. This time i didnt purchase the xpac (for the first time ever) and i will be sticking to everquest i think. I find myself having more fun there than playing wow.

I hope you find the game you are looking for!
Its amazing how always towards the end of an expansion you get post like these. You can litterly go back in time to any “End of Exansion” post and find similar folks saying that they feel the game has gone in a different direction they wished it to be. The truth is, WoW is WoW. Blizzard has kept this game running for over 15 years and will do so for another 15 years. The changes are not always welcomed by the gaming community, but, we adapt. I myself feel a bit numb from all the grind that each expansion brings, however, its an MMORPG. And thats what they all require, grind. So, I do hope once the OP returns, which they always do, that they find all the reasons to love WoW as we who remain playing it do.

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