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Obviously, opinions differ. Comments clearly show that some people enjoy Demon Blades and/or Dark Slash and others dislike one or both. Personally, I detest both of these abilities.

That said, the solution isn't to delete them, it's to make the various talents competitive. In this case Demon Blades needs a bit of a buff and the talents competing with Dark Slash, ie First Bood an Cycle of Hatred need buffs.

I think it's great that we have different ways to play, I just want them all to be competitive. They'll never be exactly equal - I'll settle for close.

And, I really want our AoE fixed, so we actually have sustained AoE. As it is, after we use our CDs, we have only a very weak Blade Dance, and it's on a CD as well, if shorter. Spamming our ST rotation for 80% of the time in an AoE fight is not fun or effective.

Global statements like the one you made about Demon Blades are usually wrong. A quick look through this topic will show there are plenty of people who like it. They just want to make sure it’s a competitive talent choice. I tend to agree that a simple fix would be having every auto attack generate a small amount of fury (probably around 20). As for the improving chance for Chaos Strike to refund fury I had a suggestion that as part of the ability or some other baseline passive it gain a stacking 10% increased chance to refund fury that resets when it finally does. That could help counter bad RNG.


You are right. I was very general and trying to speak for everyone with that statement. I should have said it was my own opinion and I'm sorry for that.

I would like if they could make it generate at least a little fury oneach swing to help smooth it out. And I like your stacking refund chance too. Similar to fire mages crit thing they had in legion. (Don't know if they still have it) would help balance out a bit of rng.

I would still love something to gather a soul fragment from the surrounding area. True we aren't limited like tanks in our movement during boss fights, but it would be great for quality of life to have something to assist with that.


I find Dark Slash pairs up pretty nicely with Immolation Aura and some decent haste. That drops IA’s cooldown to line up pretty well with Dark Slash. It also keeps the fury flowing in while in the Dark Slash window.


Same. I usually go blind fury demonic. Pop eyes, ia, ds then spam chaos strike. Works pretty well. The next ds would then happen without meta, and I'm not sure about delaying ds for after eyes or using it on CD. Maybe I should stand at a dummy for a while and smack it.

And, I really want our AoE fixed, so we actually have sustained AoE. As it is, after we use our CDs, we have only a very weak Blade Dance, and it's on a CD as well, if shorter. Spamming our ST rotation for 80% of the time in an AoE fight is not fun or effective.


I actually had good success with a Blind Fury, IA, Trail of Ruin, First Blood, Demonic build last night. Had the trait for reducing fury cost of Blade Dance and increasing it's damage, the one for increased chaos strike damage stacking and the eye beam reduction traits from my azerite pieces.

It was actually really fun, and while I wasn't top AoE damage, it was comparable to others in my group. Not sure if you have tried it out.
06/22/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
And, I really want our AoE fixed, so we actually have sustained AoE. As it is, after we use our CDs, we have only a very weak Blade Dance, and it's on a CD as well, if shorter. Spamming our ST rotation for 80% of the time in an AoE fight is not fun or effective.

If tuned properly Blade Dance and Trail of Ruin can be decent sustained AOE when woven with other cooldowns.

06/22/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Demonhaunter
You are right. I was very general and trying to speak for everyone with that statement. I should have said it was my own opinion and I'm sorry for that.

No need to apologize. I just want to point out when you use such statements it often invalidates your main point.

I would like if they could make it generate at least a little fury oneach swing to help smooth it out. And I like your stacking refund chance too. Similar to fire mages crit thing they had in legion. (Don't know if they still have it) would help balance out a bit of rng.

I just think Blizzard should always look at counters to flat percentages and see if some counter to being unlucky would help.

I would still love something to gather a soul fragment from the surrounding area. True we aren't limited like tanks in our movement during boss fights, but it would be great for quality of life to have something to assist with that.

I’ve gotten so used to doing little shuffles when I’m low on fury I don’t even really notice this anymore.

I actually had good success with a Blind Fury, IA, Trail of Ruin, First Blood, Demonic build last night. Had the trait for reducing fury cost of Blade Dance and increasing it's damage, the one for increased chaos strike damage stacking and the eye beam reduction traits from my azerite pieces.

It was actually really fun, and while I wasn't top AoE damage, it was comparable to others in my group. Not sure if you have tried it out.

On beta I run Blind Fury, Immolation Aura, Trail, Dark Slash, and Demonic. It plays okay, but it could be better if some of the ideas in this topic.
I've tried Trail of Ruin but even with the CD, Fel Barrage just seems to beat it by a lot, both in AoE and ST. I hate Dark Slash, so usually run with Blind Fury, Immolation Aura, Fel Barrage, First Blood, Demonic. My damage isn't bad, I just find it so much less fun to spam Demon's Bite and Chaos Strike all the time in AoE pulls. Maybe it's a tuning issue, but I'd mostly like to see Blade Dance damage buffed to make First Blood more competitive with Dark Slash (and improve AoE a bit) and have the Blade Dance CD dropped a bit, maybe even just 1 or 2 seconds. Don't want to get overpowered, but it would just feel so much better.
06/21/2018 02:22 PMPosted by Veraxxus
I have a strong feeling they're happy (ignoring numbers. Of course those will change) with the current state. I could see the argument for a 130 fury cap but then I feel like people would make the same argument until we are likely to be able to (with a single reset) store 4 chaos strikes and it's difficult. The spec works, it's just not very inspired.

I forgot to answer this in an earlier reply. My argument for the 130 cap is all about fury over capping constantly. I'll just use some average numbers. Demon's Bite alone generates 20-30 fury per use so about 25 average. That means to cap fury you typically need to use DB 5 times which on average generates 125 fury. That means 5 fury goes to waste. With Insatiable Hunger DB generates 10 more on average so about 35 per use. This means it takes 4 uses to get to 140 which over caps by 20 points. With a 130 cap you rarely every over cap from Demon's Bite and with Insatiable Hunger you only overcap by 10 pts. It has nothing to do with how many Chaos Strikes you can use before running out of fury.
06/22/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Ferenn
06/21/2018 02:22 PMPosted by Veraxxus
I have a strong feeling they're happy (ignoring numbers. Of course those will change) with the current state. I could see the argument for a 130 fury cap but then I feel like people would make the same argument until we are likely to be able to (with a single reset) store 4 chaos strikes and it's difficult. The spec works, it's just not very inspired.

I forgot to answer this in an earlier reply. My argument for the 130 cap is all about fury over capping constantly. I'll just use some average numbers. Demon's Bite alone generates 20-30 fury per use so about 25 average. That means to cap fury you typically need to use DB 5 times which on average generates 125 fury. That means 5 fury goes to waste. With Insatiable Hunger DB generates 10 more on average so about 35 per use. This means it takes 4 uses to get to 140 which over caps by 20 points. With a 130 cap you rarely every over cap from Demon's Bite and with Insatiable Hunger you only overcap by 10 pts. It has nothing to do with how many Chaos Strikes you can use before running out of fury.


I'm going to get a LOT of hate for what I'm about to say, but I think it's necessary.

I see a lot of discussion concerning the Fury cap, and how it's so low that we're constantly capped. I know I'm experiencing something similar in the beta. However, I've avoided commenting on it for a specific reason. Now, before I go on, you need to approach this not as a demon hunter player who wants a more streamlined class, but as a game developer with a certain vision for the game.

So, here it is: What if Fury getting capped like this is intended? What if it's meant to be a limitation of the class itself? You'll notice that the power of every class got scaled back in some way, and for demon hunters, what if that's part of it? Now, I am not saying that that's what it is. I am not saying that it's a good idea either. I am telling you to keep in mind the fact that Demon Hunters struggling with the Fury cap might be intentional.

Now, with this in mind, let's ask another question: What does it bring to the game? See, all limitations such as this are meant to bring some sort of decision into play. As an example, back when classes were designed to run out of mana, you were meant to try and manage mana. You made sure not to spend it frivolously. You chugged mana potions. So, likewise, what does getting Fury capped so easily bring to gameplay? What sort of decisions do you have to take? Well, the obvious answer would be that you have to better manage your Fury generation so as to waste as little as possible. Meaning that if you're above 40 Fury, you don't want to be generating Fury, you want to be using Chaos Strike, or whatever other Fury spender you should be using then. The Fury cap over that amount is specifically there to allow you to play around certain factors, such as the unpredictability of Demon Blades and Felblade and the large Fury generation of VR when you spec into Momentum, as examples.

Now that this has been established, can we say that it works in practice? I personally would say that no, in practice, such a system does not work.

Continued next post
1. It's just not fun. The micromanagement of Fury becomes too tedious, forcing the player to switch between generation and spending too quickly. One of the fun aspects of Havoc is building up your Fury then spending it for a spectacular burst of damage from repeated Chaos Strikes. Changing it so you build only enough Fury for one Chaos Strike and then spend it immediately may equalize the damage (which granted might make Havoc easier to balance in PVP) but it does so at the cost of the feeling of reward. To put it plainly: Spending 3 seconds building Fury for one Chaos Strike feels less rewarding than spending 6 seconds for two.

2. The Fury window remains too low for certain builds. On a momentum build, you are "rotation locked" in that you need to be using specific abilities at specific moments. This removes a lot of control over Fury generation and thus makes Fury management with such a low cap almost impossible.

3. This kind of resource management requires very little decision making. It's only making things tedious. The "I can generate more Fury but risk hitting the cap and wasting some" decision almost never comes up. The additional Fury you can generate with such a low cap is, well, so low that it doesn't make much of a difference for burst windows. So you're stuck generating just enough Fury for one Chaos Strike, except sometimes still hitting the Fury cap by accident due to procs.

4. It prevents tactical gameplay. A common tactic for demon hunters is when a burst window is coming up, stacking up as much fury as possible, maybe even hitting the cap, so you can spend it in the window instead. With a reduced cap, the use of such a tactic is extremely limited. Not only does this cause such design to remove decision making from the equation, but it also makes the spec less versatile, less able to adapt to the situation.

So, in conclusion, even if we assume that being Fury capped is part of the spec design as a limitation meant to be played around, it doesn't work. It's just not fun and doesn't bring anything to gameplay.
@Galladen... If it's intended that seems like poor design. It's always been a sign of bad play to cap a resource, be it energy, focus, rage, or fury. To be forced into what is deemed bad play because of game design, well I just said it in my first sentence. The other problem is you have a spec design with talents that basically force you to get to 120 to dump as many Chaos Strikes as possible in an 8 second window.

I'm okay with a talent like Blind Fury that will guarantee you cap your fury pool. It's only one cooldown and is usually a part of the basic rotation anyways. The problem is general fury building and having GCDs used for Demon's Bite partially go to waste that bothers me.

A 130 cap doesn't allow for more Chaos Strikes. It only gives some minor forgiveness in potential over capping of Havoc's primary resource.
06/23/2018 05:43 AMPosted by Ferenn
@Galladen... If it's intended that seems like poor design. It's always been a sign of bad play to cap a resource, be it energy, focus, rage, or fury. To be forced into what is deemed bad play because of game design, well I just said it in my first sentence. The other problem is you have a spec design with talents that basically force you to get to 120 to dump as many Chaos Strikes as possible in an 8 second window.

I'm okay with a talent like Blind Fury that will guarantee you cap your fury pool. It's only one cooldown and is usually a part of the basic rotation anyways. The problem is general fury building and having GCDs used for Demon's Bite partially go to waste that bothers me.

A 130 cap doesn't allow for more Chaos Strikes. It only gives some minor forgiveness in potential over capping of Havoc's primary resource.


I feel like you didn't read both my posts, and if you didn't I suggest you do. I explain in detail why, even if being fury capped is supposed to be a gameplay element which we're supposed to play around, it doesn't work.
So I spent the weekend in beta grinding low M+ and I can say two things for certain.

Dark slash feels about as good as pouring a dumpster full of rusty silverware into the worlds biggest garbage disposal. I mostly used first blood because its better in a dungeon setting anyway but.... good god DS feels bad.

and speaking as a AAA game artist.... you need to do something about the weak demons bite animation as soon as you have the time. It's one of the things that makes the ability feel so terrible to use. It contrasts very heavily with the chaos strike and blade dance animation which are arguably two of the coolest ability animations in the game. You go from a rad spin jump to looking like you just whiffed a home run with your offhand??? I bet the complaints about how clunky it is will thin out if you updated it (although fury gen is still a bit rough on a mechanical level).
06/25/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Xyero
you need to do something about the weak demons bite animation as soon as you have the time. It's one of the things that makes the ability feel so terrible to use. It contrasts very heavily with the chaos strike and blade dance animation which are arguably two of the coolest ability animations in the game.


Maybe the contrast is the point?
Well its ruining the visual flow of combat so its over done if it is the point. It wasn't as noticeable when you were sitting at 15%+ haste but now at 120 we are sub 10% and every frame of the animation is really obvious and painful.
06/25/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Xyero
So I spent the weekend in beta grinding low M+ and I can say two things for certain.

Dark slash feels about as good as pouring a dumpster full of rusty silverware into the worlds biggest garbage disposal. I mostly used first blood because its better in a dungeon setting anyway but.... good god DS feels bad.


"Demon Hunters really need Colossus Smash," said no one, ever. I totally agree that Dark Slash is awful to play. You are forced to center your entire rotation on maximizing this short window every 20 seconds. I already have CDs for every single ability, pretty much. Adding one more, especially when I have to constantly manage my fury and other CDs around this window, is just awful.

I play First Blood, even though it is undertuned significantly, since Blade Dance is so weak.
06/26/2018 03:18 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
06/25/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Xyero
So I spent the weekend in beta grinding low M+ and I can say two things for certain.

Dark slash feels about as good as pouring a dumpster full of rusty silverware into the worlds biggest garbage disposal. I mostly used first blood because its better in a dungeon setting anyway but.... good god DS feels bad.


"Demon Hunters really need Colossus Smash," said no one, ever. I totally agree that Dark Slash is awful to play. You are forced to center your entire rotation on maximizing this short window every 20 seconds. I already have CDs for every single ability, pretty much. Adding one more, especially when I have to constantly manage my fury and other CDs around this window, is just awful.

I play First Blood, even though it is undertuned significantly, since Blade Dance is so weak.

Dark Slash is not all that bad. It has a couple problems though. One is that the duration lines up too exactly with Demonic. Another problem is the 20 second cooldown is slightly disruptive to the flow of play when Eye Beam it 30 seconds. The last problem is the current tuning of Blade Dance/First Blood and the terrible design of Cycle of Hatred make it feel like you have no choice in talent selection on this row. Hopefully the former will get tuned and and least you have two talent options, but the latter there is no hope for until it gets redesigned in a future patch.
Actually, for me, Dark Slash has one big problem. It isn't FUN, at all. Blizz can tune it to be the best by a huge margin (as it is now) and I'll still never play it. I much prefer Demonic, which lines up with Dark Slash well enough, but have zero intention of ever using Dark Slash. They need to fix the other two options, because I think a lot of people really hate this talent.
06/26/2018 03:42 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
Actually, for me, Dark Slash has one big problem. It isn't FUN, at all. Blizz can tune it to be the best by a huge margin (as it is now) and I'll still never play it. I much prefer Demonic, which lines up with Dark Slash well enough, but have zero intention of ever using Dark Slash. They need to fix the other two options, because I think a lot of people really hate this talent.


What if, instead of being time-gated, Dark Slash was charge based? You use it and your next 4 chaos strikes deal bonus damage, or something like that? Or maybe when you use it, your GCD is reduced to 1 second and chaos strike is free?
06/26/2018 04:34 AMPosted by Galladen
06/26/2018 03:42 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
Actually, for me, Dark Slash has one big problem. It isn't FUN, at all. Blizz can tune it to be the best by a huge margin (as it is now) and I'll still never play it. I much prefer Demonic, which lines up with Dark Slash well enough, but have zero intention of ever using Dark Slash. They need to fix the other two options, because I think a lot of people really hate this talent.


What if, instead of being time-gated, Dark Slash was charge based? You use it and your next 4 chaos strikes deal bonus damage, or something like that? Or maybe when you use it, your GCD is reduced to 1 second and chaos strike is free?


I still wouldn't like it. Basically, it's forcing me to play with one damage window inside another one, and that just isn't fun gameplay. Demonic is effectively already putting me into a damage window - I want to Chaos Strike as much as I can in the window after I use Eye Beam. Dark Slash forces me to line up my Demonic and Dark Slash windows constantly. It's basically CD stacking, just with damage windows.

It just locks the whole spec into an extremely strict rotation, which punishes you for being late or not having enough fury to maximize Chaos Strikes due to the RNG fury generation. Havoc has a relatively simple set of abilities, it just feels awful to lock it into a strict, unforgiving rotation.
06/26/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Diaboliqa
06/26/2018 04:34 AMPosted by Galladen
...

What if, instead of being time-gated, Dark Slash was charge based? You use it and your next 4 chaos strikes deal bonus damage, or something like that? Or maybe when you use it, your GCD is reduced to 1 second and chaos strike is free?


I still wouldn't like it. Basically, it's forcing me to play with one damage window inside another one, and that just isn't fun gameplay. Demonic is effectively already putting me into a damage window - I want to Chaos Strike as much as I can in the window after I use Eye Beam. Dark Slash forces me to line up my Demonic and Dark Slash windows constantly. It's basically CD stacking, just with damage windows.

It just locks the whole spec into an extremely strict rotation, which punishes you for being late or not having enough fury to maximize Chaos Strikes due to the RNG fury generation. Havoc has a relatively simple set of abilities, it just feels awful to lock it into a strict, unforgiving rotation.


The point of Dark Slash is to add an ability which adds interactivity to the rotation. I'm personally in favor of this, but I agree with you that the implementation is shoddy. Having to line up cooldowns as you explain is one good example. The solutions I offered were more aimed at making easier to manage your fury. If it was charged based, you wouldn't have to worry about having a full fury bar before using it. Same if it made chaos strike free. But in both cases, it removes decision from the equation; you just use it on cooldown.

So, how could Dark Slash work? I'm personally at a loss beyond the suggestions I already made, though I haven't thought about it that much.
I don't like Dark Slash - I'll never like it. It also gets worse if I try and use something like Immolation Aura, because then, I struggle with GCD stacking - Eye Beam, Immolation Aura, Dark Slash. Either I'm forced to over cap fury, or I have to do less damage in the Dark Slash/Demonic windows.

My solution is to remove it entirely, but since that won't happen, I just want the other two abilities to be buffed to be competitive. I don't have a fix for what I see as a talent that simply doesn't work well with Havoc.
I wish Bliz could do something to make throw Glaive useful again.

As a tank it’s useful to pull mobs because of the threat it generates. But as a DPS you don’t want to be pulling mobs for group encounters typically (unless it was given some kind of misdirect mechanic?)

Currently it’s not even superior for DPS in 3 target situations over chaos strike. Thus its supreme un-usefulness.

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