End of Legion Mythic+ Feedback

General Discussion
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With Legion coming to a close we thought we might try something a little different and collect some specific feedback on things. While we normally are reading tons of posts you guys make and sharing the details internally, we want to try collecting focused feedback to ensure your opinions are being heard. We're still doing our usual methods but want to see if this can be something we use going forward.

For the first one we're going to try one focused on Mythic+! We want to hear everything you guys have on this feature we introduced in Legion. What you think it does well, what you think it doesn't, ways you'd like to see it go, how did it work throughout the course of the expansion, etc.

Also a friendly note that just because you see it here doesn't mean it will be changed or added - and this topic is not an indication of future feature development.
Kiss/Curse Affixes. Possibly even choose which ones/some of them in exchange for higher rewards/more prestigious rewards.
Best new feature introduced in Legion. I do wonder if you've considered what the absence of certain legendaries in BFA will mean for certain specs, e.g. squishy healers without Prydaz or the cloak or specs with weak AoE or burst or weak on movement fights not being able to adjust that with specific legendaries.
I loved mythic +, altho I am on a mythic raiding guild (or at least we try to get bosses down on mythic), mythic+ is a really fun endgame activity, its refreshing and rewarding, and since you get loot from the drops and a weekly cache you dont feel too much sadness on the RNG on the weekly chest drop, I would love tho to see tyrannical nerfed a Little bit, like 25% increased HP and you can buff the dmg to +25% too, but that extra HP 40% just makes me avoid doing multiple mythic+ on those weeks, I just dont enjoy such long dungeon runs, it feels too exhausting.

Thanks for asking for feedback! hope it helps improve the game!
Figuring out a way to let melee other than rogue participate in progression keys would be awesome.

I'd say adding prestigious rewards to encourage high key pushes would be another thing that would be good to implement, similar to the arena title/mount system. It would need to be seasonal to keep the drive high.
There's a lot of stuff to say honestly so I might come back with another post later.

Its great at giving people a reason to log in and try to push further and do better next time.

Its a great alternative to raiding as something to do as an end game. Its an interesting way to see more niche abilities or scenarios out of classes. I feel like I learn more faster when pushing keys than I would learning a new class/spec inside of raids.

Its easier to play with only friends and to coordinate times to play because of the smaller player count.

The bad side of m+ is probably related mostly to class balance. Some classes just don't really bring utility to justify their lack of burst or they don't have defensives capable of keeping their class alive during the highest keys.

Boss and mob health scaled too slowly compared to damage. Its easier to hit a point where a certain class simply won't survive (or need to stack tank trinkets and avoidance) than it is to reach a point where you simply can't produce the output to complete a dungeon. That's when you stop bringing certain classes (healing priests, guardian druids)

Really Tyrannical and Fortified should just not exist imo. They only help push certain poorly tuned abilities into the spotlight. The difference between hard boss dungeons and hard trash dungeons could be addressed with better balance via dungeon design rather than an alternating universal damage/health buff.
Remove tyranical and fortified, just have 3 different affixes. From what I have seen most non-hardcore people just take a vacation from mythic+ when its tyranical (in terms of pushing high keys).

Keep the warforge and titanforge chance the same, if you decrease it too much, people who raid mythic will not be that motivated to run them. Right now there is still that remote chance for an upgrade.

Give mythic+ an equal balance weight when doing balance/number tuning (compared to balancing for raids). Alternative, change up the meta with balance tuning for every new mythic+ season.
With the removal of legendaries in BFA we have lost the variety of swapping ST to AoE between bosses and trash.

We're pigeonholed into picking your talents based on ST or AoE or a mediocre of both now at the start and sticking with it, where as before this could be alleviated by use of different legendaries.

My question is has the dev team talked about removing the restriction of talent swaps in M+ for BFA?
Please punish people for leaving, especially in the beginnig of the dungeon.. really bites 4 manning a m+16
Loved it as a feature, and I'm really looking forward to the M+ seasons in Bfa. That said here are some things I would like to see in M+ seasons.

- Better leaderboard that you can check in game, seasonal not weekly.
- New record announcements for guilds, friend list and communities just like in D3.
- Better rewards for M+ Seasonal, none wants to have to raid mythic in order to compete.
- End of season unique rewards and titles just like in pvp.
- A rating system perhaps.
I really like most affixes. The 2 I hate are grevious and explosive.

I hate grevious because it really favors burst healing. If it ticked for less but slightly faster and instead of 5 stacks, the max was like 15, I think hot healers would be better than they are.

Explosive is annoying because of the targeting issues. I understand not allowing us to use target macros but when the explosives spawn in a group of adds, it turns into either a tab target lottery or spam clicking. If there was a minimum spawn distance of about 5 yards, melee wouldn't be hurt too bad and ranged would be more reliable.
M+ has consistently been one of my favorite activities this expansion- it's a great way to hang out with friends while still working towards rewards.

I especially enjoyed the elements of some dungeons that let certain classes use their unique utility- being able to use Flare during the final stretch of Vault of the Wardens, for example. It's not so significant that a hunter feels mandatory, or that not having one feels punishing, but it let me feel special whenever I did that dungeon.

I think it fell a little flat where new dungeons were added to the pool- unfamiliar dungeons that also felt harder were a real turn-off for M+. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, or if there's a good one. I would have liked them to have been tuned a little more gently, or maybe to have had a quest or some bonus rewards when they were first released to encourage people to learn them.
Seasons to push high keys would be awesome, I know there's been achievements datamined for completing all 15s etc, but something to push further would be cool. Kinda like arena's, Special title/mount for top .5% complete each dungeon on a 20 and get a set of transmog.

Being a mythic raider it seems almost pointless to push M+ as the gear will almost always be useless so some incentive to push would be great to see and make pushing higher and higher keys more meaningful then just a rank on a website.
I'd like to see the tank-oriented affixes be a little bit less punishing since there's literally nothing we can do to avoid them.

For example, maybe make Necrotic have a cap of a -75% healing reduction or something, so I'm not punished horribly on weeks where it's Teeming, or punished because my DPS isn't that great.

Skittish wasn't a fun mechanic to deal with for tanks or dps, at least in my opinion.

Please examine the way Teeming interacts with certain dungeons -- Halls of Valor is nearly an unplayable disaster zone on Teeming and Fortified weeks.
05/29/2018 05:34 PMPosted by Axeperson
I really like most affixes. The 2 I hate are previous and explosive.

I hate previous because it really favors burst healing. If it ticked for less but slightly faster and instead of 5 stacks, the max was like 15, I think hot healers would be better than they are.

Explosive is annoying because of the targeting issues. I understand not allowing us to use target macros but when the explosives spawn in a group of adds, it turns into either a tab target lottery or spam clicking. If there was a minimum spawn distance of about 5 yards, melee wouldn't be hurt too bad and ranged would be more reliable.


God, I feel like I was playing one of the best classes for dealing with Explosive, and I still just HATED it. The targeting troubles were miserable.
please stop giving high ilevel (960) weekly chest to mythic+ . its make M15 weekly = mythic raider ilvl
Mythic+ has been a highlight of Legion. Usually, my guild's activity slows to a crawl near the end of the expansion, and while that it still somewhat true, it's true less so than previous expansions. In large part, that's thanks to Mythic+ dungeons. It gives us challenging content with relevant loot, especially in the weekly box. We end up trying to cycle most of the guild through 15s every Monday (because procrastination) and getting a lot of people and alts some good loot.

The biggest failings of Mythic+ have been two-fold, from my experience. Firstly, the gaps in dungeon difficulty between the initial dungeons to the ones added much later.

I will admit that part of this is perception. When you release a dungeon that is way overtuned, then nerf it 2-3 weeks later, people still have memories of that bad time. They may run it once more to confirm their beliefs, but that second run is probably not going to go much better than the first. Part of the deal with Mythic+s is that you have to -know- everything about a dungeon. You need to know trash abilities, every little boss ability, and how to get 100% trash while avoiding anything over that. That generally means your first couple runs in a new dungeon will be bad regardless of how overtuned it is. That doesn't change the fact that Cathedral and Seat were both substantially overtuned when they came out.

Secondly, there have been balance problems with affixes. It's fine that some weeks are harder than others, but some affixes penalize certain specs of healer much harder than others. Overflowing in particular was hell as a Holy Paladin. I had to get into the habit of cancelling my Artifact procs before healing after I accidentally Holy Shock'd a tank so hard it placed a 13m absorb shield on him and wiped the group. That's a significant design failure to have to work around an affix by clicking off player buffs.

While Overflowing was eventually removed, it took quite a long time for that to happen (7.2 iirc), and its replacement, Grievous, has some balance issues between healer specializations as well. Ironically, Holy Paladins and strong single-target healers are best suited to dealing with Grievous (while they were the worst at Overflowing) as they can 'nuke' through the heavy DoT damage in order to push the players past the 90% threshold one by one. Multi-target healers can get trapped in a cycle where the whole group has 5-stack Grievous Wounds and removing the DoT by breaking the threshold is too difficult to do when considering the incoming damage from other sources at the same time. It's possible to work around this usually, but it is a gap in difficulty between the healing specializations created by affixes.

By the way, all of this is coming from somebody who plays a lot, but I only consider myself "moderately good". I am not pushing +23 keys. Heck, I'm not even close to being good enough for that. I assume you want perspectives from all players though, so I thought I'd comment anyway.
PROS:
  • Replayable Content
  • I love being able to revisit content all throughout the expansion, instead of just the beginning of the expansion.

  • Difficulty Scaling
  • Content stays relevant in terms of difficulty with higher key levels.

  • Challenging in a good way
  • Bringing specific classes to make specific pulls or bosses feel smoother is a GOOD thing. But don't make it impossible to complete if lacking those classes.

    CONS:
  • Not everyone receives loot
  • Chaining a few Mythic Plus to only receive AP doesn't feel good. Maybe some bad luck protection? We shouldn't all get loot all the time, but a few runs on a weekend and all I get is AP is not as fun as the other teammates receiving upgrades almost every run.

  • If not gear, then possibly satchels?
  • Perhaps a consolation prize other than AP for players who do not receive a piece of gear after their Mythic Plus run. Some examples possibly could include: A bundle of augment runes, a herb satchel, or a satchel containing a handful of random cooked food etc.

  • One Shot Mechanics
  • These should exist, however, not to a point where a dungeon is near impossible. Looking at you, Halls of Valor Hyrja. More predictable one shot mechanics are healthier than RNG one shot mechanics (like Hyrja's bolt).

    Things I Would Like To See For Mythic Plus:
    -An in-game guild leaderboard, possibly extended to server wide.
    -Better rewards for doing keys higher than the minimum weekly requirement.
    -Better weekly rewards for Mythic Raiders (might be solved with no tier existing)
    I think M+ was one of the better parts of Legion.

    One of the suggestions I have is figuring out a way to punish people who leave, particularly very early in a run. The other, is making some of the affix combinations a little less punishing/annoying, such as Explosive + Teeming.

    Oh, and make Explosive orbs a little easier to click on, please. Maybe have them spawn a little higher up, so they're not in the middle of a deathball of mobs? (Or just remove Explosive because it sucks)

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