End of Legion Mythic+ Feedback

General Discussion
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Speaking as someone who's mainly played affliction warlock for the last couple of months, having talent trees where you choose between single target and area-of-effect abilities is really, really !@#$ty. The talents should be ways to enhance what you already have, not fill in blanks in class design. Having to choose between a damage cooldown or Sow the Seeds really sucks, because on Tyrannical i'm going to want more single target to take down a boss, yet I'm also going to want AoE damage for trash packs.
M+ rewards using different group compositions for the same dungeon

  • Running with certain classes/specs/races changed the way a group handled certain packs/bosses, thus making each run feel different than the last, even after 250+ in my case.
  • Take Moroes in Lower Karazhan for example. Fighting each of his four attendants can be very difficult at times. Having a Hunter/Priest, however, gave you the ability to take one of them out of the fight completely, making it easier. Dwarfs/Paladins/Mages can use their respective abilities to remove the bleed debuff from themselves, making the fight easier for healers. Finally, a druid or a shaman can make certain attendants much easier to handle, with Druids using Typhoon to interrupt Crispin's Will Breaker and Shaman's purging Keira's Empowered Arms.
  • After running several dungeons on the BFA Beta, I'm happy to see that this design philosophy is continuing with the reintroduction of abilities like Tremor Totem and Soothe. I'm hoping you can continue to apply more encounter opportunities so that everyone can feel empowered in certain encounters.
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    Legion dungeons heavily favored certain CC/Debuff types more than others

  • As a healer, I was a bit taken aback that dispelling poison was a much better form of utility than dispelling curses or diseases. As a shaman, I was unable to dispel the incredibly dangerous poison debuffs from spiders in DHT and COEN. When not dispelled, these abilities can 1-shot multiple party members in higher keys, or destroy the tank thereby ruining a pull. Naraxus, a boss in Nelth, has a mechanic that entirely revolves around poison debuffs. The only curse debuff of importance, however, are from the ghosts in the beginning of Upper Kara, which always targets the tank and can easily be dealt with, dispelled or not.
  • As for CC, it was very weird to find out that certain CC abilities such as Monk's Paralysis and DH's Imprison did not initiate combat with mobs, while a Shaman's Hex or a Mage's Polymorph did. Once Hex fell off, mobs would teleport to us from a 100 yards away and 1-shot people. Perhaps something can be done to prevent such shenanigans?
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    There should be more ways to prepare for M+ keys through professions

  • I appeciated the ability to bring items such as Failure Detection Pylons and Auto Hammers into my M+ runs, rewarding me for being an Engineer. I would like more tools we can bring to a key that'll improve my group's odds to get it on time.
  • For example, on higher keys I had no choice but to use Avoidance gear to prevent being 1-shot by Lady Hatecoil's Focused Lightning, which deals extremely heavy nature damage. However, rather than relying on RNG to bless me with the tertiary stat, wouldn't it be cooler if Enchanters could provide enchants to Nature Resistance? These enchants call back to an earlier time in WoW's history that I'm sure players will appreciate, and give another layer of control when preparing for M+ keys.
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    Thanks for reading through my feedback. M+ is a great system overall and I'm looking forward to M+ in BFA.
    M+ is a spectacularly good system that is heavily tarnished by bad class balance. Since you've doubled down on spec "niche" in BfA I have no idea how you can fix this, and historically you balance at a glacial speed... so I'm not sure the point of this thread.

    The way to make M+ better is to balance specs quickly.

    A lot of the imbalance came specifically from mechanics that instantly kill people at a given difficulty, and classes that could survive these mechanics were inherently mandatory at that point. This was particularly relevant in healers, where druids and paladins are basically the only healers after a certain point. These mechanics shouldn't be here; no instant kill mechanic should be unavoidable.
    Mythic + breathed new life into WoW for me and a lot of other players. Though I didnt venture far beyond 21s it's still one of the best things about the expansion.

    My only complaints stem from certain affixes being more annoying than hard (Hi Quaking, RIP Sanguine, Hey Skittish). These affixes make it so someone like me barely plays the weeks they are in rotation. They simply arent fun or engaging to deal with.

    The other issue I had was that some healers are just flat out unviable for anything above 20, (Shamans, Priests, Monks) all struggle compared to the dominance of Paladin/Druid, and I say this as a HPal main. They simple dont have the tools available to efficiently deal with high rot or high burst damage. I'm not sure if this can be resolved through tuning or not.
    Love Mythic+. Probably the best new feature ever (or maybe second to flex raiding.) I run dungeons with guildies, but also pug quite a bit because I have a larger appetite for dungeons than my friends do.

    Some random thoughts:
    - A meta reward for completing _all_ the dungeons and possibly all the affixes at a high level would be cool. Might encourage people to run the less popular dungeons/affixes more.
    - An added higher tier of reward. Level 15s are comparable to heroic raiding level, imo, while 20s are closer to mythic raiding level. We did 20s because they are fun and challenging, but it would have been nice to have some visible "bragging rights" reward.
    - Doing something about the RP would be nice. I never thought anything would come close to etching my brain like "The icy winds of Northrend will consume your souls" did, but yep, now it's all "Dargrul cannot control the hammer, Ularogg!" and so many more. Great the first play through, awful after running the dungeon 100 times.
    - Better pugging support. Being able to filter groups by keystone level range seems like it would be very helpful. Some indication of an applicant's or group's dungeon experience would be nice. It kinda sucks we have to lean so much on raider.io for that (and we do, pugging 20s would not be possible at all without raider.io, imo.)
    I've never understood Mythic +. Never understood how the player base continues to allow Blizzard to Diablo-ize WoW.

    Additionally, running something without a tangible award, is not worth running to me. The rewards for Mythic + were never great enough for me to participate. World quests gave better rewards.
    I think we're at a real junction point with dungeons due to Mythic+, they are the best solution yet introduced to problems facing modern WoW dungeons as an expansion ages, but the flow-on effects of the system will be felt as they become the de facto target for dungeon balance and design that might feel in retrospect like a short-sighted solution that cannot then be excised.

    Where they succeeded:

    • Keeping dungeons relevant through scaling rewards and difficulty
    • Making guild and friend groups desirable instead of just queuing
    • Providing a competitive environment at the high-end

    Where they are failing:

    • Further constraining dungeon design
    • Limiting opportunities to provide variety through non-affix systems
    • Repetitive due to being turned into a "pillar" of the game
    • Timer as the only measure of success


    Their failures are much more subtle, and I think cut right to the core of Dungeons in WoW as a whole. Dungeons don't really feel like dungeons, and they're becoming more linear, simpler and similar. There is limited room for a dungeon to be designed for exploration, for quests or even anything optional when relevant dungeons are designed to be under 30 minute 3-4 boss time trials. Even a dungeon like Halls of Valor that dared drift too far out of the template, it was ostracised because M+ dungeons have rewards per dungeon, not per-boss.

    All of the tools in Legion that were designed to provide variety in base Mythic dungeons, different paths, world quests and even quest pickups (rather than drops) were disabled in Mythic+. The structure of the reward and win condition isn't playing very well with the rest of the game, that should be a sign that it is too limited as a format to support being the "standard" dungeon for much of an expansion.

    And then there's the repetition and frequency of dungeons. Keys remove the dungeon lockout and effectively set the diminishing returns on M+ to the level of current heroic gear, so it feels like you've attempted to make what was at one point a less frequent but integrated part of the game into a "pillar" of the game, that is to say something you can do to the exclusion of everything else, repeatedly, for large stretches, and that expectation is foisted onto people with varying appetites for it.

    Finally, the timer. By making the timer not just the worst case judge of failure but a multiplier on rewards you encourage the communities worst instincts, and further reduces the design space of dungeons. The Strath Baron run was fun and I understand the risk/reward of larger pulls is an attractive skill differentiator if done correctly, but not every dungeon needed to become a Baron run, and it wasn't the exclusive way you attempted to extend the life of dungeons in the past which included new, optional or difficult bosses and quests, roads which are now closed because all relevantly tuned dungeons are now speed-runs.

    TLDR:
    Mythic+ succeeded in several respects but I hope you don't settle. The current design of Mythic+ is painting dungeons further into a very small corner and when the novelty wears off it might earn a spot amongst LFG and "winged" dungeon designs that were initially met with excitement and engagement only to be scorned for fundamentally altering the character of dungeons for the worse.
    Movement is often an issue, at least for tanks. By this, I mean being able to move fast enough to control the dungeon. I love doing M+ on my blood DK, but it was honestly kind of a pita before I got the speedy boot legendary. Trudging along at base movement speed often results in overeager melee pulling stuff and making your life hard.

    Trinket loot is also a long term problem. Dungeon trinkets were good at the start of Legion, but got nerfed or simply didn't scale well with ilevel. At our current stage in Legion, trinket drops from a M+ chest or weekly cache are, with a few exceptions, automatic chaos crystals. Not sure how to fix this one.
    Good:
    Made dungeons fun and relevant throughout the expansion. Provided a good alternative to push your character outside of raiding and gave a better use of a class's entire kit.

    The Bad:
    Community perception does a lot of damage on "whats meta". No Spriests or Enhancement shamans in the first MDI pushed those classes further to the fringe, even though they can both do fine up to 25's. Granted most players won't even get above 18s.

    Reward Schedule. It feels really off. Once you've gotten about half of the mythic raid tier on farm, your rewards from running dungeons slims down to almost none. The motivation for running anything more than a 15 a week just isn't there.

    Suggestions:
    Add another progression system for M+. An example is the Agony system in GW2. GW2 has scaling dungeons called Fractals with a special damage type Agony. This damage is mitigated through agony resistance. You get Agony resistance items as a reward for clearing fractals.

    I'm not saying to copy this system, I'm just saying theres ways to introduce some sort of progression system to M+ thats meaningful within the M+ world but doesn't bleed over and impact other aspects of the game too badly.
    I hate everything about Mythic+. I never do them. Its not worth the time or the loot. Its such a lazy design to take a dungeon and its loot and just keep scaling it up. But for some reason you got people thinking theyre accomplishing something, so Im sure it will continue.
    Mythic+ is easily one of the best new features of the game, and with the right tuning could easily be made to replace raiding entirely. It is a fantastic way to gear up, improve your playing skills, and keeps 5 man dungeons fresh. It's just fun. The tuning isn't perfect, but there is a nice curve. It's great to see how the higher in key you go the more the once-trivial mechanics suddenly become the most important thing. I like that a lot.

    I hope in the future it's an even bigger feature. But like all things, it's not perfect. Infact, there are some serious but fixable problems.

    1) The balance in general is pretty bad. There tends to be "metas" that form around mythic+ and players like to stick to them, but for good reason. You bring specific classes and specializations to mythic+ because every other one just doesn't have tools to excel in a 5 man situation. Priests in general are amazing in raids but very bad in mythic+ due to their inherent designs. Fury Warriors taking extra damage taken as it turns out, is -really bad- for high level dungeons. Shamans of every stripe are incredibly bad for Mythic+ because of poor defensive cooldowns. An elemental shaman would be an amazing mythic+ class right now, but their lack of defensive utility and weird design makes them unviable.

    It's just frustrating that there are some classes that hurt you more than help by bringing to a high key. You can make it work, obviously. But you have to have a solid composition and it's just an objective fact that if you were a better "mythic+ meta" class things just go smoother.

    Then you have the encounter mechanics themselves. A Prot Warrior is pretty much useless for a majority of 5 man content and dies much much easier than other tanks because of the health design, whereas in Upper Karazhan they can pretty much ignore a ton of the mechanics in the dungeon whereas say, a Brewmaster Monk basically is the objectively wrong choice.

    Going forward I feel Blizzard should be aggressive with it's tuning for 5-man content so all classes and most specs are viable, and can fit seamlessly into comps.

    2) Heroism and Battle Rez are too vital to be class-restricted for 5 man content. This one is a no-brainer. If you have a group that has battle rezzes versus one without, you're going to be at a inherent disadvantage. Everyone has to play perfectly. We're humans, we're not going to play perfectly all the time. Right now there is no comp that is complete without a battle rez.

    Heroism is already a vendorable item with mildly less power than the class version. Battle rez should be too.

    3) Tyrannical and Fortified suck. Skittish should be retired. Right now Tyrannical is overtuned. The difficulty of a 21 tyrannical boss is closer to a 23 or in some cases even approaching a 25 Fortified boss. Fortified is just boring to have these health-sponge mobs that are only dangerous because of the length of the fight and unavoidable attacks. I really think the dungeons should stand on their own and these affixes should go away. The difficulty of mobs vs bosses could be scaled with new affixes.

    Skittish isn't even in the MDI because it sucks. It's boring. There is no gameplay element to it. Explosive is probably the most annoying affix in the game, but even it has some gameplay elements to it and strategic thinking. Skittish requires no thinking at all and is just not fun. It's not fun for tanks. It's not fun for DPS. It's not fun for healers to watch someone get one shot and there is nothing they could have done. It's just a bad affix. Do the right thing and retire it.
    Tyrannical vs. Fortifide

    The difference between Fortified and Tyrannical feels to large. While I think it's good to want to emphasize either trash or bosses from week to week right now it just doesn't feel great. High Tyrannical keys overall feel really punishing and not fun to do. Additionally, at a certain point Tyrannical keys feel nearly impossible to complete due to DPS checks or damage from bosses becoming to large to manage.

    One suggestion is to reduce the health / damage multiplier for both and just increase the base multiplier to compensate. Another suggestion would be to have Fortified and Tyrannical add a unique extra affix to certain mobs in the dungeon or bosses instead of just further increasing health / damage. For example, Fortified could add the Explosive Affix to trash mobs and Tyrannical could add the grievous affixes while in combat with bosses. Obviously design something for each one that makes sense instead of those.

    Weekly Affixes

    The other concern I have is the variance between good weeks and bad weeks. There are some weeks where I feel like I simply don't have enough time to play (Sanguine Volcanic anyone) and other weeks where I just can't stand to push at all (hellooooooo bolstering). This creates a problem because during a good week it feels punishing to do anything else but do keys and on bad weeks it feels pointless. I'd suggest keeping Fortified and Tyrannical weeks to keep things changing but give each week a fixed set of affixes you can roll. This way every time you complete a dungeon (either in time or not) there are two affixes that can roll on the key from a pool for the week. So if we have 8 affixes total, every week would pick 4 and from those 4 two will randomly be chosen every time you complete a dungeon.

    Secondary Stats

    Avoidance, Speed, and Leech are all interesting tertiary stats and definitely keep gear feeling fresh and exciting. The problem is Avoidance feels mandatory at this point. My Druid has sat around 15% Avoidance in my raid set since ToS and having pretty much a permanent barkskin has made progression significantly easier on me. For M+ not having a good avoidance set that doesn't destroy your damage is extremely punishing. Avoidance either needs to be drastically reduced (Capped at 10% with the current amount needed to get 20% on live) or there needs to be a reliable way for everyone to get access to it. Speed feels pretty good. Leech almost feels to strong but is definitely still overshadowed by avoidance.

    Quality Of Life Changes

    We need a reroll feature for our Keystones. Everyone has that one dungeon they hate doing all together or dungeons you want to avoid like the plague on certain weeks. Trying to do CoEN on Tyrannical Grievous almost certainly feels like a key you need to drop a handful of times before attempting it compared to similar key levels you are running. I'd recommend giving everyone ONE reroll at the start of the week and an additional reroll after successfully completing 5 keystones in the level range similar to your key.
    Add mode safe to enchange gold/key+ in carry mode :), prevent cheat
    4) Tanks diversity is actually a bad thing in 5 mans. As we go forward into BFA, we're going to see tank nerfs and a reset button hit. Healers will need to heal tanks again and so on. Right now in the meta you bring a Blood Death Knight because they can pretty much self-sustain themselves and free up the healer's GCDs for everyone else, or shift to damage.

    Ultimately, this is going to be the way of things at the end game. Even if it's downplayed, self-sustain is extremely important and DK's and Demon Hunters both have significant amounts of self-sustain. They have strong dungeon utility: Self-heals, grips, AoE threat, and ranged interrupts. DK's have a battle rez which is vitally important for higher keys as well. I think it would behoove all tanks to have general toolsets like strong self-heals, physical damage reduction, and ranged threat mechanics. These can be made via talents in the talent tree and not require entire class re-works as well. Enraged Regeneration coming back for Prot Warriors. Tier 20 baseline for Brewmaster Monks. And so on.

    5) Mythic raiding is required for higher keys, and that's a significant barrier to entry. It's a massive barrier to entry to higher mythic+ keys when you don't have the correct trinkets, relics, and tier that is raid-only and frankly detracts from the experience. I'd appreciate it if doing mythic+ only could make you viable for incredibly high keys, with the mythic rewards merely about min-maxing your effectiveness.

    6) There are a lot of bugs and exploits that stick around. This one is a no-brainer. I think some clever use of game mechanics is great but we get saddled with some interesting bugs that stay around.

    7) Roleplay events should stick to normal, heroic, and mythic mode, and go away in mythic+. By the time I've seen it the 50th time in mythic+, it's boring. It's just wasting key time. Some stuff like the minecart in THE MOTHERLOAD!! is fine because it's a fun little event that is short and to the point. But stuff like the magical boat ride in Court of Stars or Odyn's bloviating is just eating up time I could have otherwise used to complete the key.
    Hello!

    I am Crenix current R1 rogue in the NA region, and MDI competitor.

    Tyrannical
    I would personally like to see Tyrannical nerfed slightly, from say 40% health buff to 20-25%. I think the 15% increased damage is fine. The 40% health is just a bit too much in my opinion, especially on high keys 25+ it starts to become really noticeable.

    One Shot Mechanics
    I'd like to also see the reduction/removal of 1 shot mechanics such as Nightmare Bolt/Arcing Bolt. These abilities on high keys become almost impossible to deal with even with a full defensive set of gear, specially when its Tyrannical week. If these types of spells stay around it would be nice if the casts on these types of spells were longer instead of them being like 1 second casts, make them a 2 second cast.

    Other Affixes
    Explosive
      I'd like to move on now to some of affixes I feel to be really unfair or just boring to play with. Explosive is the first thing that comes to mind when i think of this. Its pretty annoying when you can have 2 seperate teams doing the same exact pull. But depending on RNG 1 team could get double the explosive spawns of the other team, explosive also changes the way you have to pull dungeons drastically.
      Personally I'd love to see this affix removed, but if not at the very least make the orb spawns less RNG.

    Bolstering
      Bolstering is another affix I think should be changed. I would like to see either a cap added to the amount of bolstering stacks, or have it to where the debuff eventually falls off after a certain amount of time. It's really frustrating if a pull does go bad with bolstering and the only way to salvage it is to put a pylon down and re-do the pull again. It also changes drastically how you pull certain dungeons, Eye of Azshara being a prime example of this.


    Rewards
    I would really like to see some kind of rewards added to the game for pushing high m+. As it stands currently there is no real incentive to push high keys other than a number on a 3rd party website. It would be very cool if Blizzard added mounts/titles/transmog/achievments for pushing high keys. Similar to the pvp system in wow currently, give maybe a mount/title for the .5% of players in each region with the highest score, and continue with rewards on down similar to arena/RBGS. I think it would also give others who only log in to do there weekly 15 and log out incentive to really try and push high keys. It would also be nice if potentially gear scaled up past 15's. Its cool having more gear drop the higher key you go, but when the baseline is only 940 99% of the time you are still not getting an upgrade. Would instead like to see at maybe key level 22 baseline goes to 950, and at 26+ 960+ gear.
    Not a huge Mythic+ player or anything but did have a couple thoughts. The main thing that tends to make mythic+ really difficult in my - again limited - experience is the interactions between different affixes that massively ramp up difficulty more that any of them in isolation; take the current week for example. Explosive by itself is usually reasonably easy to deal with, but adding teeming and fortified compounds it to where it can get out of hand in a hurry. Now don't get me wrong, M+ especially at higher levels should be extremely punishing, but a lot of times it feels like the difficulty is overwhelming where it shouldn't be, just because affix combinations make some weeks far more difficult than others. Conversely, the "push week" affixes probably shouldn't be a thing either. Especially to present a sense of progression for both the higher-level players and the smaller groups or people like me who just look for groups in the finder tool, M+ seems like it needs a more consistent week-to-week difficulty the most as far as changes in BfA. As for how to do that, I can't claim to know exactly (I imagine it would involve changing the synergies between affixes, or at least changes to the system that decides how they get grouped up for a specific week; the all seem pretty balanced by themselves in isolation), but that's what feels the most off about the system at the moment to me.
    M+ was for sure what kept this expansion alive.

    One suggestion I have is not only just for M+ but anything else in the game. There needs to be a 'Gold Sales' option in the 'Premade Groups' tab. Right now if you go to even look for a +15 for your weekly cache you'll see more 'WTS +15' than people actually looking for a group and it's disheartening. While typing this I went to go look myself for reference and literally just found this: https://i.imgur.com/2o7wdkK.png
    The entire mythic+ system was without a doubt the best feature to be added to the game in legion. I am looking forward to what comes of it in the future. We need to see some change with two particular affixes, those being tyrannical and fortified.

    Fortified is one of the most boring affixes that makes no large change in the way that people run the keys. The increased damage is mostly negligible and doesn't have any notable impact, while the increased health does nothing other than slow down the pace of the group. This does not cause any change of pulls or make the players play around a different obstacle it is just a lazy affix.

    Tyrannical puts the breaks on pushing any serious keys. The increase in damage from a boss makes it almost impossible to push every other week when the affix is set to tyrannical. The difficulty does not come from the increased health that the boss has but the damage that they deal. The increase damage doesn't mean that there is a change is play style but it forces players to go out and kill bosses to be running tank trinkets and farm avoidance gear in order to not get 100-0d in one shot. This entire affix is absolutely anti-fun and should be reworked in a way that would make the players not fight the same boss but this time with one shot mechanics. One idea would be to make some bosses have twice as fast of a cast time or throw out stuff on the ground twice as fast. This would make it deadly and make the players react to everything much quicker.

    Please remove fortified and either remove or rework on tyrannical works so every other week it is not a dead key.
    A fantastic system that has created a solid avenue for 5 man 30 minute content. It's been hugely welcome and something that myself and many guild members have spent a lot of time engaging with outside of our raiding schedule.

    Things M+ dungeons does well (in general)
    - Gives short bite sized content for short play sessions ( <1hr )
    - Provides constant challenge through scaling dungeon difficulty
    - Keeps dungeons meaningful throughout the expansion
    - Doesn't require a full raid squad to engage with it, only five people.
    - Rotating affixes give a lot of diversity in methods of engaging with the dungeons.
    - Provides challenges to healers or tanks or dps depending on the affixes for that week.
    - Provides an excellent method of gearing up alts.
    - Gives value to a lot of items / trinkets that do not find a home in raids.
    - Gives enough encounter variety that it allows classes to really shine due to their abilities, gear or talents (this is also a problem when it creates a dependence on those classes / combinations).
    - Encourages stuns, interrupts, kiting, aggro management, serious communication and good play. It makes better players.

    Things M+ dungeons does poorly (in general)
    - Doesn't provide adequate rewards for high keys or even reasons for people to engage beyond the +15 threshold
    - Punishes players who are learning keys
    - Punishes groups who have a disconnection or somebody rages out
    - Forces groups into ultra difficult dungeons due to the RNG nature of the keys
    - Creates divisions between meta and non-meta classes at the high key level
    - Some affixes don't scale well and typically end up acting as a frustration to the group rather than a challenge.
    - Creates a difficult environment at the high end keys where classes will be sat out because of the properties of their class.
    - Creates dependence on gear / class / leggo combinations to complete certain dungeons (I refer to myself in Nelth's lair as 'A slow ring with a player tax')

    A special note on tier changing / patch m+ dungeons
    During those golden weeks where the gear from M+ is equal to or greater than the current raid content, we get SO many more people engaging with M+, sure their reasoning is purely to gear up for the raids but the influx of players is wonderful and there are runs a-plenty.

    Personal Feedback from my experiences thus far (every key timed from at least +20, usually higher)

    - Races are fun, racing against timers is fun. I like being on the cutting edge of a timer and trying stupid things to catch up with a timer, this makes for great anecdotes to share with my friends . I really dislike that we after a few runs can predict that our run is dead at the 30% mark if we've wiped once. If there was a way of getting time back through the encounters by doing difficult things (that deducts from the death penalty clock) that would be a great incentive to try to push forward and continue and recover the run.

    - I hate that some players only want to do whatever level gives them a high piece of loot at the end of the week, I'd love for there to be more meaningful rewards like titles, mounts, armour tints, recognition on a leaderboard, pets and other goodies to convince them to join the guys spending the time trying the harder content.

    - I hate that every other week my group don't want to attempt half the dungeons because of the tyrannical affix, with bosses like hyjra or harbaron becoming horrible, especially with latency of playing across realms (I play on the oceanic / US realms, and I feel for whoever has to dodge harbaron sycthes at 300ms).

    - I've just opened my cache for the week and you know what I get? a tyrannical +23 SOTT keystone, may as well delete that. The RNG nature of deciding which key you acquire is often hugely frustrating, if I could simply pick from one of three different keys or have SOME measure of control over my keys that would be brilliant.

    - I hate that I can't bring along my friends to high keys because their class can't survive or they don't bring enough utility to the group, when a friend of mine can't join high groups because they play a holy priest, that feels bad man :(

    - I feel punished for trying to learn pulls / keys on a high key difficulty. If I want to spend an hour learning and practicing through each pull of a +24 key then I will deplete the key and won't be able to get that key again unless I get some serious RNG luck. I wish I had a way of retrying the key for re-roll tokens or gold. I'll happily throw respec levels of gold to retry the key at exactly the same level.

    - As above, I feel punished when a player disconnects or someone has an angry fit and leaves my group, forcing me to abandon my key. I'd love a method of re-trying my key, even limited attempts that is governed by re-roll tokens or gold or items I need to farm up from completing runs.

    - I love the fact that M+ made trinkets and items that are not usually useful in raids such as avalanche elixirs, invis pots and skystep pots actually meaningful. This gave real value to these items.

    - I love the great sense of mastery I get from quick swapping gear / legendaries / consumables before each pack or boss. This creates a real satisfying experience where I can optimise my play for each encounter. Please allow me to do the same in BFA, this is a great component of feeling skillful and prepared for my dungeon runs.

    - I dislike the current dependence on avoidance gear to get through encounters, not because of the avoidance stat but due to the difficulty of acquiring avoidance gear, you just have to pray for titanforge RNG to grant avoidance. If I had a method of adding avoidance or another method of acquiring this stat, that would be brilliant.

    - I love court of stars because it made professions mean something once more, I would love to see more opportunities to bring professions into M+ beyond bringing specific potions or consumables. Please allow us to keep bringing professions back into the game.

    A few minor suggested Improvements
    - Failure detection pylons should be able to be used as a battle res under the same rules as rebirth / soulstone etc, thus removing the requirement of having to bring a battle res class just to enact some strategies. Using a pylon in lieu of a class res only gives you 1% health so it is a lesser form of battle res, in the same way drums are a lesser form of heroism / bloodlust.

    - Allow players to spend resources (gold / re-roll tokens) to re-attempt keys either mid run or at the conclusion of the run, so players can spend time learning keys and practicing them to make progress or just deal with the fact that somebody disconnected.

    - Allow players some form of choice of their next keystone, but also give rewards for completing the more difficult keys each week, as there will always be some dungeons that are easier than others.

    - Create an avoidance flask or similar defensive item that allows us to offset the challenge of acquiring avoidance gear, it would be a choice between avoidance or the usual primary stat, so it would be a meaningful choice of gear balancing.

    Thanks for reading, I know this has been a wall of text!
    Pros:
    - Make dungeons more challenging, the default one is outgeared 3 days after their launch
    - Rewards is good, Weekly +15 rewards is probably too good

    Cons
    - Tyrannical vs Forti feels like it doesnt work (even after the BFA nerf), the amount of effort to kill a dungeon boss is way above killing dungeon adds, just remove Tyran vs Forti affix and add some more interesting affix

    - Reward for pushing above +15 is not good enough, this is a major problem for me, as there's no reward going forward so i just sold my key run for gold

    Suggestion
    -Add competitive aspect to M+, maybe do what raider.io does, give title, mog for top 100 M+ player for that season

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