End of Legion Mythic+ Feedback

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Newer Dungeon Balance: Some were initially overtuned, but people still avoid the newer dungeons. Perhaps a month of greater rewards for completing them would help, so people are motivated to learn them.

Rewards: Earlier in the expansion the pressure to grind AP and gear through M+ was too high. The current system is great where most people try to just complete the highest keystone they can for the weekly chest gear. Considering the weekly chest, I feel like the end of dungeon rewards are fairly balanced.
"Also a friendly note that just because you see it here doesn't mean it will be changed or added - and this topic is not an indication of future feature development."

So …
Why are we here?
Love mythic+, but BFA might already be fixing my MAJOR frustration with it, which is: getting high ilvl pieces that I can't replace because of tier set bonuses. This is even more frustrating in the weekly reward for completing a +15 where I get a 960 ilvl piece and can't replace my 935. I have a bank full of ilvl upgades.

Another thing that BFA is fixing... having the summon stone camped when the host is on a PVP server. Nothing new, as this happens in raids, but since you can binge mythics with different groups it happens more frequently.

And another thing... better search functions (why do I have to know to type +16 in the dungeon search?).

It's hard to find something wrong with the actual gameplay. Affixes and timers added to dungeons is pure genius. If I had to dig for something then I'd say that mythic+ got considerably less interesting toward the end of the expansion but I really believe that was because of the first point I made. Since 4 of my gear slots and two trinkets are tied up on raid pieces the actual chance of getting something worthwhile is slim to none even at higher difficulties.
I think it's a good system, but I'm not a fan of it because Raider.IO and other databases that break privacy laws and cater to elitists ruined my chances of getting into Mythic+.

Call me a filthy casual if you will, but I will continue to oppose the Mythic+ feature until Raider.IO and other elitist addons are the subject of DMCA takedowns. Cos while I understand you are afraid of failing a dungeon if you aren't equipped with the right individuals (and better-geared players are better, after all), those addons are driving away new players and are probably a source of the unwelcoming toxicity that is unfortunately growing and driving away players (to say nothing of the other sources of toxicity).

Once the addons and their databases are deleted, I will throw my support behind Mythic+ again, but until then, I will continue to oppose it.
Legion has too many legendaries, and few of them are too OP compared to the others, which means it'd hurt some people who had bad luck in the beginning.
I personally prefer one legendary per expansion just like the old day. And people need to really work his !@# off to get that thing. That way, that legendary will feel truly "legendary" after all.
Wow, thanks for this.

I was a bear main for nearly 6 years. This proved to be the go-to tank class for half of the expansion, including raids and m+. I did main swap to this DK so I could remain relevant in that part of the game. I don't really like DK all that much tbh. Feeling roped into 2 tank classes and 2 healer classes seemed a bit over the top. I realize that a lot of the BDK preference lies in group leech and that's going away.

I run with a Resto Shaman in the vast majority of my keys. We're good friends and generally competent players. She didn't have the same pull to switch to a meta healer like I did for tank. This gave us an unfair ceiling as a team.

Additionally, some of the affixes just didn't feel good. I know they're supposed to add complexity and challenge, but to have 3 or 4 weeks go by where nobody can (legit) push. That's basically taking a multiple-week system and turning it into 2 week's worth of progression every couple of months.

It took you too long to address some overtuning of instances and bosses. Cathedral was the most apparent example. Players were telling you about this for weeks and months. It wasn't until MDI #1 came around that you made significant changes to where the abilities scaled similarly to other dungeons. People were doing +21 and higher in early 7.2 on other dungeons but couldn't complete a 17 cathedral without having a 2nd person go heals for last boss. Sure, you addressed it, but why the hell you wait so long? You got a cathedral key back then? lol rip stone. That's only one example but you get the idea.

Be mindful of color themes. Seat... come on now. Purple on purple on purple. Dealing with mechanics should be the challenge. Seeing them should not be a challenge.

I'd like to see some sort of system in place that has an impactful penalty for "fake DC" in a dungeon. It's gotten out of hand as M+ has become more popular. Surely, there is something where the game knows if you DC or if you open the menu and logoff. If this happens, put a 24 hour ban on group finder. Something that means more than 30 minute deserter buff or whatever.

Anyway, thanks for looking for feedback.
Mythic+ is currently not my cup of tea.

What I enjoy most about the PvE content is the relaxed progression based nature of raiding, with the only time constraint being the weekly schedule.

I personally do not enjoy the pressure of being rushed through a dungeon, especially when you may have to dedicate 20-30 minutes without interruption in order to complete it effectively. That's a rather large window of time for a race against the clock in my honest opinion.

Those reasons aside, there are times where I simply cannot set aside the time to do M+ without potentially having to deal with the nonsense that can occur in my household. If I'm in the middle of a Mythic +, and something requires me to AFK for as little as 5 minutes, you can count on not being able to complete the dungeon in time. Meanwhile, if such things happen in a raid, I can just have someone replace my spot while I deal with it, as long as it doesn't happen on pull, I guess.

This is all subjective, obviously, but it's pretty clear that this type of content isn't for everyone. The simple solution is to not do it, right?

There is one glaring issue I have concerning Mythic +:
Raiders were heavily encouraged to do Mythic+ content because it could offer gear on par or better than some of the loot acquired in Raids. This is my absolute primary concern. I don't enjoy Mythic+ content, yet if I don't do it, I am essentially missing out on some exclusive gear sources. This came in the form of chances at titanforged equipment, exclusive trinkets with insane effects, legendary drop chances, and most importantly, guaranteed titanforged gear from the weekly M+ cache.

The weekly cache can obviously be obtained without worrying about the time constraints, but this poses a completely different problem. Having to faceroll a +15 every week was awful. Some weeks were better than others, but most of the time it was a matter of forcing your way through a difficult dungeon, wiping several times on certain bosses, all in hopes that you can get a nice titanforged piece of gear that can hopefully fit a slot that isn't already occupied with an equal or better piece of gear.

I'm not sure how these issues will be addressed, or if they even will, but at the very least I hope the incentive for pure Raiders to do Mythic+ will be reduced, if even slightly.
What if past a certain key level (maybe around 20 or so), instead of mobs' health and damage scaling higher, the timer got shorter? So it becomes more about speed and not "do I have enough defensives to survive this boss"
Needs a "Random murloc attacks" affix.

Otherwise, I had fun. I liked that the end of week reward was fair, and that there were enough levels that anyone of any skill or item level could be included.

I'd also like to see more cosmetic rewards as well.
Probably one of the better things introduced this expansion. They're almost like the Greater Rifts on Diablo 3, but a little more challenging and fun. Some affixes were a hit-or-miss others had a perfect medium between challenging and easy.

Just a few suggestions:

Randomize affixes, maybe it could be per key or per dungeon. If not that just randomize them each week because at the moment there's ways to see what affixes are coming up for the weeks ahead.

Penalties for leaving Mythic+ groups early while the clock is going. Especially at higher keystones, this practically ruins runs. In-game we've got a thirty minute penalty for leaving raids/dungeons very early on, and shorter penalties for PvP content, so I'd like to see the same here. Maybe Island Expeditions too if there isn't a penalty already.

With BFA moving our focus away from artifacts, add more incentive rewards - maybe titles, armor appearances or something. Maybe even completing a certain level of keystone on time gives you a currency, then you use said currency to exchange for mounts and other rewards.

Integrate a rating/score system per character, because even though raider.IO is a great tool it's not always going to be accurate. Even if it was a means of adding a tooltip in group finder showing the recent keystones someone has done that'd be fine by me.

Lastly and overall: keep Mythic+ dungeons as a mode that isn't required to progress further in the game and instead stays as an alternative method to gearing. The unfortunate thing is as you gear further the challenge slowly goes away but I suppose that's why keystones go past 20. Challenge mode dungeons weren't bad, except you needed to grind out specific items to push for the fastest gold completion time, whereas now you can just gear however you want and you're ready for Mythic+ content.
1. Quaking should never happen outside of combat nor after the dungeon has been completed. It is a good affix other than these issues.
2. Bursting should be a 10+ affix only. The nature of bursting is to slow people down and make them plan ahead, but on low keys this is annoying and leads to a lot of down time because the health pools are so low.
3. Significantly more player choice when it comes to gear from runs. There is a lot of trash gear that no one would use given the option and having some way of turning that trash item into something beneficial other than gold or a crystal would be very welcome.
4. Weekly Cache needs a lot more player choice. The dungeons alone have a lot of trash gear clogging up the loot tables, Naglfar Flare, having all the dungeons in there makes it a mad haus. This frustration is compounded by being in the wrong loot spec when you open it. A significantly better system would be allowing the player to choose their spec when opening it and having them choose between 5 randomly generated items from those tables.
5. A lot more attention needs to be paid to ability scaling. Xavius and Hyrja tyrannical are the worst offenders.
Either on the class balance side or the dungeon design side something needs to change so that playing a blood DK, Hpal, and bringing a WW monk isn't mandatory for things above 22 if you're trying to be competitive (MDI was a snooze fest to watch cause the only thing changing comp to comp was like 1 DPS class). Obviously, it's not realistic to want every single thing to be viable everywhere but having dungeons that absolutely wreck your tank class or healing class as well as ones where you can succeed needs to happen so there is some variety.

The threat changes you've made on beta already address the ridiculous throw a dot and kite for 30 sec tanking strategies on 25+'s so I'm glad you realized that's a problem. Then again, it's most prevalent in things like NL keys because mobs randomly attacking party members with every attack when the tank has threat and stop attacking entirely if the tank is out of range is both annoying and nonsensical.

Beyond those things, I'd like to see some sort of reward for pushing high M+ keys aside from personal achievement. Perhaps if you complete above a certain key level you get a currency or credit and can purchase Legendary Keystones with 3-4 affixes on it and is locked at some high level like a +25 or something and if you complete it, it drops transmog or a mount.
I absolutely loved this feature, allowing me to progress with my friends even if I can't make their raid schedule.

We need more features like this. End game content without a schedule.
While not a heavy M+ chaser (preference is heroic->mythic raiding) here's my $0.02 on the concept:
- Keep warforging/titanforging as-is. Without it, unless there's some other draw then going back into content for a consistent ilvl winds up being a waste of time. I like the chase to try and get that 945 to trigger to a 960 or higher.
- Explosive affix - seems fine to keep in the game but PLEASE fix it to where they can either be caught in a cleave/AoE or are targetable. Otherwise as previously mentioned it becomes a tab-fest and that in itself can be skittish at times.
- Dungeon design. At higher levels new mechanics come into play. Between those, standard mechanics, and an ever-increasing health pool for the targets you can run into environmental issues with too much clutter and it becomes entirely too punishing. If you're keeping M+, make sure there's sufficient space to maneuver balanced around +15. Lower levels would in effect have more room to play while still providing challenge for those who like to do +25s and higher.

Beyond that, I'd definitely second something mentioned by another poster - some sort of coin system for M+ that can be used to buy vanity items (cosmetic items, xmog, pets, toys). That would add a little extra flair and incentive to doing them beyond "I got my +15 for the week". Scale it along the lines of 2-6 = 0 coins (there has to be SOME challenge), 7-13 = 1 coin, 14-20 = 2 coins, 21-27 = 3 coins, 28-34 = 4 coins, and so on. Also, the run should be completed in the timer to obtain the coin. Encourages people to push instead of simply endure. The high-enders will accumulate coins faster but then they should because that's a higher challenge. Also as noted have some of the items be seasonal so there is prestige built in.
Internalize raider.io score similar to arena rating. Unique rewards based off score - i.e. battle pet at 1500, tabard at 2000, color variant of raid gear at 3000, color variant of the mythic/elite at 4000, weapon at 5000, mount/title for top 1% for each spec or class (numbers are example only of course, subject to change based on total number of mythic dungeons in pool).

Unique arena/RBG rewards are cool, but PVP not my thing, nor my friends thing. Mythic+ was ABSOLUTELY my AND my group's thing. Giving seasonal rewards to chase incentivizes continued effort throughout the expansion. Alternative colors of already-created mythic raid/elite gladiator would be minimal strain on art team, while providing a nice carrot for smaller group content. Mount/title would give in-game prestige for the truly dedicated, while basing the reward off class would prevent 90% of game population from feeling obligated to re-roll to whatever is flavor of the month, as more competition means less likelihood of gaining reward.

Buff enhancement aoe. ;)
M+ was one of the best additions to the game in Legion, both for challenging repeatable content and for an alternate chance at gearing. Giving the dungeons continued life was an additional plus.

That being said, there were a few sticking points that started to arise because dungeons can vary so much. The first one being length, which was mostly fixed with the artifact power changes mid Legion, but the Maw of Souls problem is something that I think needs to be carefully avoided, and tweaked faster if it crops up again.

The biggest one is the scaling up of damage can make some dungeons much more difficult at points than others even at the same keystone level. Certain trash packs and bosses like Hyrja can develop unavoidable one/two shot mechanics that don't have a comparable difficulty spike elsewhere, leading some keys to be more dead than others. It seems to me like the flat % increases are a good baseline but more individual tweaks may need to be done at the upper end to keep things a little more even.

Spawn points in some dungeons seemed a little unfair, comparatively (looking at you Darkheart Thicket). Which wouldn't be an issue of design except for the existence of the timer.

Lastly, more of a pipe dream than anything, having a pure timer always seems to favor AoE and weird routes with minimal trash, regardless of affix. It would be interesting to see a more composite score for the dungeon similar to things like the garrison invasions where a few other performance metrics could shine besides speed. For example, trash cleared could contribute to overall score even beyond the minimum, allowing for an interesting decision about whether it's worth it to skip and risk tricky maneuvering, or just kill it because the bonus outweighs the risk and time saved. It could also help redirect deaths from being merely time off the clock, and maybe even include other things like total avoidable damage taken etc.
I've only had a little experience with M+ thus far. I returned in December and after a month and a half on a dead server my wife and I server hopped and started over. We're only now getting into a position to participate in M+ weekly.

To me the M+ dungeons feel like a good place to add a system for old PVE transmog that mirrors how marks of honor can be farmed and used for old PVP transmog.

It would be really awesome to be able to earn a BoA type currency that can be used to purchase old raid teir sets and weapon mogs.

Maybe you can earn 1 mark for doing the daily heroic, 1 mark for any M+ you complete, and 1 mark for each level of your highest M+ you complete in the weekly chest.
I'm not a huge fan of the timer and I find it more stressful than fun. I don't think removing it would be good either, but perhaps de-emphasizing it for pushing keys would be nice. I think a great mechanic in place if that would be mythic + scoring. Very much like how Destiny 1/2 did it with their nightfall scoring.

    Have points based on DPS/Total damage done/enemies killed

    Bonus points for avoiding damage from certain boss mechanics

    Reduction of points based on damage taken by non-tanks from certain sources

    Bonus points for doing extra mechanics (something along the lines of some of the dungeon achievements)

    Point multipliers based on amount of time since last deaths/no deaths

    Point multipliers based on time remaining

Obviously there would need to be some preventative abuse mechanics in place and some things adjusted (like reduction in points for affix damage). I also think having a points scoring system in place would be good for a leaderboard type of competition. Points also add more importance to having good DPS players, as having a person that does a lot of damage, but stands in fire could possibly be a big detriment to the team vs. them dying and only losing 30 seconds off the clock.

On a somewhat related topic, I think it could be fun if we had affixes for the open world/world quests. Having world tiers akin to the division, where the higher levels have more affixes and things scale the same as in dungeons. I feel this would keep WQ content relevant as the higher world tier you go, you would absolutely need to be in a group to do some of those quests.
I would love to see more advantages to including new people in groups and / or running low keystones. IE more advantage to running whatever keystones are available. By the end of the xpac it felt rough trying to get people to start over at low level keystones if you missed a few weeks.
M+ has been a godsend for keeping old content fresh and I loved it. Though i think a few affixes need to be tweaked or removed. I would also like to see some new affixes.

-Explosive has been a pain in the butt due to targeting issues or classes that dont have a spammable ability to deaL with multiple orbs. It doesn't feel hard or rewarding it just feels janky and broken. I would much prefer one big orb with a lot more HP that the group needed to switch to.

-Bolstering doesn't feel like it serves any purpose but to slow down the group. there is not a lot of challenge or reward. I'd rather see bolstering work as one mob in each pack is already bolstered by X amount rather than gets bolstered as the others die.

-Sanguine is fine aside from the fact that without a death knight or knockback some mobs that cannot be interrupted at all will just stand there and there is no recourse but to run away. Either every tank needs to way to move mobs like this or those mobs need to be interruptible.

-Quaking is fine aside from it going off out of combat which is just annoying and doesnt really challenge the group

-volcanic i can't complain about, one of the better affixes to keep people on their toes

-necrotic seems fine but i'm not sure how i feel about it stacking from boss melee swings, it can be hard to find a way to reset those without just sacrificing a melee dps while the tank runs away

-teeming is fine, packs like the one in HOV before entering the hall offer a real challenge that can reward good play and teamwork.

-raging honestly feels like a joke that doesn't do much of anything and I can usually just ignore it as a tank on non fortified weeks.

-grievous feels fine as a tank but i've heard from many healing friends that if feels like it punishes certain classes more than others.

-bursting feels like it pushes people to shuffle responsibility onto the healer more than it should

All in all ive been happy with the combinations but i would like to see more like quaking that require people to be paying attention and move or swap targets so the impetus does not fall upon the healer or tank to take the brunt of the affix. For example if a mob were to spawn that targets a player and follows them and will 1 shot them if it reaches them. This would force DPS to be responsible for the affix rather than something like bursting or quaking which is often left to the healer to deal with.

I would also like to see affixes work the opposite way and provide buffs or opportunities to receive buffs such as extra movement speed, gold drops/treasure goblins at the penalty of a reduced time for completion.

great job all around with legion guys, super stoked to see what BFA has in store

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