End of Legion Mythic+ Feedback

General Discussion
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I greatly enjoy Mythic+s, the main thing I would love to see added to them is an in game score/leaderboard system. Maybe some achievements linked to them, and have different seasons. I hate going to third parties to see how im doing in mythic+s.
I would like to see my best times per dungeon/affix within the game ui, possibly the team I ran with. Ranking in game similar to D3.

Cosmetic and title rewards, for things like completing all affix combinations.

An achievement system within a keystone timer.

And consideration for keystone/affix raiding...
I would really like to see a better rewards system put in place for mythic +. Right now, as a mythic raider, there is very little incentive for me to run mythic + other than simply accomplishing it because any ap you get is negligible and the gear is rarely better or even equal to what I get while raiding. Even basic rewards, such as more gold or crafting materials that scale up in amounts with higher levels would be enough motivation for me.

This actually speaks to a larger problem I have with wow's endgame, which is how the majority of player wealth is distributed. Right now, players don't make most of their wealth from actually doing difficult or large amounts of content. Instead, they get it from order halls, a nearly passive form of income that really just isn't fun to get.
I love Mythic+ as a concept, but I feel that there are a lot of nagging problems that make it fall short in practice.

Either remove Fortified/Tyrannical, or overhaul them to actually be interesting and engaging affixes. An umbrella affix that just makes everything hurt more/have more health baseline is just flat out boring. I'd rather have a third affix.

While I think the affix pool is adequate, more wouldn't hurt.

Pay better attention to M+ when balancing classes, especially now that Artifact weapons are going to be gone here in a few months. It's okay for certain classes to be better at certain role than others. It's not okay for them to be so much better that you're stupid to bring anything else (Looking at you, Blood DKs).

Design dungeon mechanics better so that pushing competitive keys doesn't devolve to "Who has the best survival toolkit"

Better rewards so there is more incentive to push high keys beyond your weekly +15.

Better leaderboard systems, and maybe seasons to match it. It'd be nice to be able to better track my best times for each dungeon and/or affix combination in my server/region within the game itself.
I think M+ has been a great addition to the game, but I have not personally found it to be terribly enjoyable.

At the start of the expansion, most of my issues revolved around having to pug all of my groups and having many instances where people left early. I think removing keystone depletion helped combat this, but I've still run into issues occasionally.

My primary issue, though, is the class balancing. As a DK main, it really does feel as though I simply don't have the tools needed to survive all mechanics in higher keys. Particularly on Tyrannical weeks, there are several bosses (e.g., Shade of Xavius, Hyrja) where I need external CDs to survive mechanics because I don't have enough defensive abilities. When playing alts such as my druid or warlock, I feel far better equipped, even though they are worse-geared.

Last, and related to the above point, high keys do not feel rewarding to me. I do think being a mythic raider, and thus not having any major gearing needs, is a big factor. That said, when doing higher keys (20+ range), even in a steady premade group, I don't feel that the end result is worth the frustration endured to get there. It increasingly has felt less as though I've learned to handle mechanics better and more that I can survive more mechanics purely because of the larger health pool from my raid gear.
Good feature. Makes Dungeons relevant down the expac.

Suggestions:
1. Dungeon quests should be function in M+. Some strides were made for this, but some quests still did not work.

2. Some Affixes should change boss mechanics. Why should the bosses do the same exact thing as normal only bigger? Maybe give them a affix-thematic power or something.
Mythic+ is one of the best things added to WoW in recent expansions. It’s a great way to make dungeons relevant again in latter stages of end game.

I like the basics of it, that the runs are timed and the group is rewarded for completing the dungeon, and I like the weekly reward based on the highest run of the week. It’s a great start for a system that will evolve, I’m sure.

However, my biggest problem with Mythic+ is that over the course of Legion it turned into a system that, mostly due to third party ranking/rating systems, was abused heavily by players who only care about rating. The reward for joining and completing a run became less about the in game rewards and more about improving rating on sites that use the Mythic+ API to track runs.

Because of this, combined with how Mythic runs are implemented in game, players were only encouraged to leave runs that were not going 100% smooth. I’m not going to say that players shouldn’t be allowed to leave runs, but I am going to say that there should be a punishment system for regular offenders. Fishing for runs that are going to succeed is not conducive to competitive gameplay and only serves to allow players to abuse the system. There is also the issue of players boosting their rating on “easy weeks” which is another reason there should be a system implemented within the game.

I think that there should be an in game rating system that tracks runs and has a sort of “rating” or ranking for players based on how well they do. Perennial leavers should be punished. Leaving because of an emergency or real life situation is perfectly acceptable but leaving runs regularly because you can’t handle a small loss in rating is not and should be punished fairly.

There are simply too many ways to cheat the system if this is going to be a competitive aspect of WoW.
So I don't come here too often but I will to give feedback

M+ is a great addition to the game.

My suggestions:

Give players more control over what they want to have as affixes. Each affix can be worth difficulty points. Pick 2 and a key affix and they can give modifiers to the rewards if you pick harder affixes. The weekly rotation is ok but control is nice.

Keys: Give us more options on which dungeon to go do. If I get a seat keystone, I am going to be doing other people's because it's horrible. Let us choose where we run

Positives as well as negatives. Allow us to choose 1 party buff for so many levels. For example at level 10 we get the 3rd affix but we also get a buff of some sort like more HP.

Give an incentive to run lower keys. Besides AP there is zero reason to do a M+ lower key.
I love running M+! Here is my feedback:

It would be great to have better rewards in line with the challenge. I'm required to run mythic raids if I want to be competitive in mythic plus. Bumping up the item level or having more opportunities for raiding equivalent gear would be a welcome change, particularly for high level runs. 15's are very easy right now and rewards for 20's, 25's, etc. would be welcome.

I think some instances, like arcway, are just too long. I prefer runs to be under 30 mins.

I'm not a fan of RP in repeated content. It may be interesting the first time, but afterwards it just gets old. I don't like waiting around for the instance to catch up with me. The boat at the beginning of CoS, the RP after the first boss in BRH or any of the Violet Citadel (thankfully not M+).

On higher keys, one shot mechanics aren't so fun and favor classes with immunities.

I'm generally a fan of the affixes, however some weeks are brutal while others are very easy. Affix balance week to week is important, though not at the sacrifice of variety.

It would be great if the UI used for searching for a group was better. Right now it's a bit of a mess, particularly if you're searching for a specific dungeon and level. It would be nice if I could advertise that I'm looking for a group with a specific set of requirements and have myself automatically matched with groups looking for my role in their comp. It would be nice if I could advertise this and then go off and do quests and other tasks without having to babysit group finder. Currently, I have to spam refresh every 10 sec, particularly as a melee DPS.

I don't like that Seat is so much more difficult than all other dungeons. I like the instance, but usually it's not an efficient use of my time. I'm cool with some dungeons being harder than others, but Seat is too much of an outlier imo.

Variety is awesome. I love the artistic and mechanical difference in all of the dungeons. I like the variety in mobs and bosses. I'm excited to learn all the new dungeons in BFA and see what the team has come up with. I also like new dungeons being released over the course of the expansion. Tying dungeons into raid lore is also very cool.

Edit: I also really love raider.io and slowly climbing that ladder. The ranking system is fantastic and is a great motivator in trying harder and harder content. That score feels earned and a relatively good way to measure my accomplishments.
I want to chime in here and say that I love M+ a lot, especially with the changes that made failing the timer not so punishing. I just wish I lived in a guild that played more M+s and that the community wasn't 90% "Selling M+ 15" or "Need IO score of 35000 for M+ 8"

The biggest cons I have seen is some of the affixes that are stupidly hard or impossible to deal with as certain classes. Grievous as a Disc Priest is absolutely terrifying, and Halls of Valor Teeming and Fortified is a gauntlet of actual physical pain.

One solution to this would be more varied affixes - and "smarter" combinations so that we don't have a set of affixes that are a cakewalk one week, and hell on Earth the next.
If you created an in-game leaderboard, you could vastly improve the pug experience by removing the timer. People who care about 3 chesting and going as fast as possible will have an incentive to do so, while pugs who just want the experience and/or loot won’t be stressed out by the impending doom of a timer compounded by possible poor play. It would also reduce leavers as wiping repeatedly would be mostly annoying and expensive.

The leaderboard would give organized groups the same competitive feeling of beating a “timer” and being the fastest; hell, you can still have achievements equivalent to keystone master. Having a timer that can expire and thus, “fail” is heavy negative feedback and doesn’t feel great.

Edit: Naturally, there would still be set time points similar to 1-3 chests internally, but removing the requirement to beat the timer would be great, psychologically and for people who don’t have the time or means of finding a regular, organized group.
Mythic+ was overall the best feature of Legion, easily. However, I do think a few tweaks need to be done:

-First, some affixes are simply way more difficult than others. Volcanic and Sanguine, for example, are simple affixes that are all avoidable damage and enemy healing. Sanguine is easy in all dungeons (Except BRH) and Volcanic is just easy in all dungeons. However, Explosive and Necrotic are a lot harder to handle and should be nerfed. More details below

*Explosive is easily the worst affix added. It is highly punishing especially in big pulls that are unavoidable or big pulls that need to be done in order for the dungeon to be finished in time or to recover from mistakes or ninja pulls. I am thankful that you can use LoS to avoid some but it is not possible in some cases and they can just overwhelm you. The affix should be nerfed in the sense that less of them spawn at a time or they take a bit longer to explode or they have even less HP than they already have or just simply remove it as it is not fun to deal with spawning explosives all the time.

*Necrotic is also another punishing one. In some cases I almost don't even have time to do reasonable damage as a tank before I have to start kiting or try to use AMS but it gets chunked down to nothing before stacks can reset(A great example of this is in Cathedral in the spider area). On some bosses, tight dps checks that sometimes can't be met are added because of necrotic stacking (I am talking about bosses that have adds spawning or have multiple targets hitting you at the same time which stacks necrotic with zero chance to reset it since bosses can't be slowed) which makes some dungeons not doable in Necrotic weeks or at least close to impossible to do on time. This affix should be nerfed by adding a healing reduction cap to like 75% or something because it is unrewarding to just not be healable in cases I can't kite or make bosses have a chance to apply stacks especially on bosses that spawn tankable adds with a somewhat high HP pool.

**This one is especially for next expansion with the nerfed threat, but I want to bring it up. Skittish. This affix, with the nerfed threat, needs to be tweaked. With it active along with the threat nerf, will make us tanks barely generate more threat than a dpsers and will make holding aggro almost absolutely impossible in Skittish weeks.

-Second, some weeks are way easier than others. This lead to some weeks to be referred as "push weeks" in the M+ community. The balance between the weekly affix combinations is currently not great especially with Tyrannical weeks (Details on Tyrannical-Fortified balance below). Generally, push weeks are weeks without hard affixes such as Bolstering, Explosive or Tyrannical (I may forget some).

-Furthermore, the Fortified/Tyrannical balance is not great. Generally, Tyrannical is considered way harder than Fortified. The boss HP increase (40%) is simply too high. It makes some bosses last as long as four minutes and turns some of their already deadly mechanics into one-shot mechanics and on some weeks in my dungeon team every non-tank has to wear prydaz, even the people with high defensives (I am looking at you Hyrja, at least in Tyrannical). As for Fortified, it is incredibly easy to get around it by using stun rotations and arcane torrent, basically you can almost entirely ignore that affix on trash you can just CC/stun for at least half of the fight, while there is no way to get around Tyrannical unless you use Prydaz on dangerous bosses with deadly mechanics, use bloodlust on it or just stack b-rez charges and not use them at any point until you reach the hard bosses (A great example of this is in HoV). A simple way to balance both would be to make diminishing returns more potent or make some trash immune to stuns for Fortified and as for Tyrannical, at least reduce the HP modifier from 40% to something like 25% because 40% is way too high.

-Another point I wanted to address is the sheer amount of one-shot mechanics. Some bosses as I said are way easier to deal with on Fortified weeks because on Tyrannical they tend to be way too dangerous. Let's use Shade of Xavius for example. His Nightmare bolts and Feed the Weak abilities are all unavoidable damage. They are cast way too quickly and if they are cast on a player that is pretty much unaware or not ready for the damage they will take a hell of a lot of damage or even be killed and not know what the heck killed them. As for Feed on the Weak, some healers maybe could save the person from the super heavy damage if they notice who it's being cast on quickly enough while others need to be ready but again, the damage comes in too quickly and healers who rely on HoTs may struggle to save the person, hell the damage is so big it can kill someone even with defensives (I am mainly looking at monks, my experience is that it goes through their entire touch of Karma but I have no idea if they have any other defensives). Abilities like that need to have an increased cast time or just be entirely removed. Sure they give you a chance to defend yourselves but not that much chance at all because it could be 1.5 secs and bam you are dead and had no time to react.

-Furthermore, the order in which some affixes come in is ridiculous. For example, one week, it is Sanguine, Necrotic and Fortified. The next week it is Bursting, Skittish and Tyrannical. The week after is technically in my experience a push week (Teeming Quaking and Fortified) but then the next two weeks are Raging, Necrotic and Tyrannical and Bolstering, Skittish and Tyrannical. Notice anything here? I sure did. Twice in the affix list does Necrotic and then Skittish come in, one week is Necrotic then the next week is Skittish, then a push, then Necrotic and Skittish again. It's not one of my major gripes but I would sure like to not have two weeks in a row with tank oriented affixes then only a week's break from them and then it coming in again. A little variety, please.

-Finally, some affix combinations are an absolute pain in the butt to deal with (I am looking at you Raging and Necrotic). This particular combination forces me to kite all the time and it is not fun. Thankfully this particular week has no Fortified in it. Basically what happens in the Raging-Necrotic combo is that I pull a pack of let's say, 3-6 mobs, my group starts to chunk them down while I only have a small amount of time to gain aggro. Then my necrotic stacks go up to something like 15 and I have to kite due to them only being able to use stuns at lower HP levels due to raging or saving them for the next pull which could be a big pull. In my example, let's say the mobs were down to about 60%. Then my stacks reset due to my slowing them down with my toolkit or using AMS with the leggo cloak on and they had time to chunk the mobs down to about 37%. I come back in the fray and as I am a slow DK the mobs are already down to 30% as soon as I am back and they hurt a lot and back to kiting I go (Unless stuns are used but usually they only last about 5 secs or so unless a chain stun rotation is used but DR comes in...) until the fight is over. Now this is just an example but generally with that affix combo I have to kite way too much. It's not rewarding that in order to survive (Or in some cases like in NL I have to kite in order for my group to survive) I have to kite for the majority of the fight. A similar case could be made with Teeming and Explosive and some other combos.

That is my 0.02 overall, maybe I forgot some stuff and I'll edit the post to add it.
Generally I've had good experiences with M+. It was rough at the start of Legion, but very enjoyable/rewarding in the current iteration.

My feedback would be:
- Explosive still needs some tuning (first boss in Maw of Souls, teeming, etc.). I'd recommend not tying it to number of enemies, or possibly set a cap on orb spawns.
- Bursting still needs some tuning. (Can be a little rough on lower keys/characters)
- Healers are generally over-punished with the current set of affixes (unless tank & DPS execute perfectly. But let's be honest, "if your health hits zero, it's always the healer's fault.")
- Necrotic needs a little tuning (Some fights require over-gearing the difficulty to accomplish)

Feature suggestions:
- Healers end up being the butt of most of these affixes (when not perfectly executed by the tank/dps). It'd be nice to see some affixes that punish the tank/DPS in ways other than imminent death. (DPS reduction, immobility, feelings of shame, etc.)
- Explosive Orb's targeting limitations make it less of a real game-play challenge and more of a frustration of dealing with Blizzards enemy targeting UX. I recommend spawning fewer, larger health orbs that can be cleaved onto and macro-targeted.

These are my opinions, based on my experience pushing keys every week with guild members and the occasional pug.
Out of all the affixes i would explosive (ironically active this week) is my least favorite. Some classes just don't handle it well and is too much "one guy fails whole party dies". Which would be a fine item at really high keys but you shouldn't feel that on a 13 alt gear run you want to be leetist on your group picks because of an affix. Not to mention it feels more not fun than anything.

Overall m+ is one of the best things in the game. As some mentioned it feels like the damage scaling gets really off at high keys. i would like to see more of a focus on on mob health instead of just going to how high can we go till we get flat one shot.

While legondaries sucked till the end where you could reliably farm them all for a character. The fact our affixes were somewhat modified around them, i hope there is a strong look at them. Particularly necrotic may need slight tuning changes early xpac is my two cents.
Some of my favorite moments during Legion were had pushing M+ keys with my guild mates. Learning the different affixes and how to deal with their (sometimes extremely painful/frustrating) interactions added new depth to the game and a fun diversion from the typical gearing paths.

The one thing that could be cool if worked out logistically would be a mythic + boss rush mode. Lorewise, the Bronze Dragonflight could be roped in and task us with going back in time to relive encounters from the BfA dungeons to learn more about the big bad, or something like that. The catch is, we can only be sent back for a limited amount of time (the actual dungeon timer) and the threads of time have altered the events of the encounters (affixes).

Logistically, you could completely randomize which bosses and affixes are included in each rush. You port into the first boss arena and the timer kicks off once you pull. Upon defeat, another portal opens and you get a brief window of 30 or so seconds to rez, rebuff, eat, etc. You can choose to take the full 30 seconds, at which point you're forcibly ported to the next encounter, or hop right through early and save the time. The next encounter could start immediately or a few seconds after your group ports to allow for load times. To ramp up difficulty with higher keys, you could do the usual (increase hp, dmg, affixes, etc.) and also add more bosses to the rush, so you have to keep the kills tight to get through them all.

Just some initial thoughts, but a mode like this could be great for folks that enjoyed the difficulty spike in bosses and less so the rush from pack to pack and cheesy pathing strategies.
What about a separate talent system for M+, similar to PvP talents, where you earn better survival or utility talents for your spec. This could help balancing issues and make more specs viable for higher keys. I know, adding *another* talent system might not be appealing. We went through the same problems when trying to balance classes for both PvE and PvP and putting in a PvP talent system was a step forward. Maybe this is the way to balance classes for M+ without screwing with raid balance because the M+ talents would automatically activate only in M+ dungeons. Surely those of us who have been grinding higher level keys deserve some perks and deserve to keep going no matter what spec we want to play. Maybe even make the highest, most desirable talents only activate in dungeons higher than a 15, so we wouldn't be too OP in lower keys?
I think M+ is one of the best things ever added to the game. I don't have the time to raid the way I did 10-12 years ago, so it's a great way to allow continued progression.

Very, very little about them needs to be changed:

- Many of the affixes "punish" melee more than ranged/tank. I don't have any specific suggestions, but playing a ranged class in M+ *ALWAYS* feels much easier than playing melee.

- It'd be great to have a way to exchange stones for a specific dungeon. I think the way stones are increased/decreased is just right the way it is, but I am left with a stone I don't want entirely too often. This seems like something that could be addressed through a profession and/or reputation grind - a way to exchange one stone for another without losing a level or wasting time.
Overall, Mythic+ has a been a wonderful addition to the game, keeping me playing for much longer this expansion than previous ones and I'm happy its returning for BFA.

Defensives between specs need to be closer. The spec that can actually survive unavoidable hits shouldn't what determines group comp.

As far as the affixes go, they're reasonable enough to handle, but mostly unfun. At best people are happy its not a worse affix, and at worst driven people away for the week. The biggest fix could come from aligning them closer to the meta class design. WoW has gone from CC & single target to AoE everything, and is reflected by how many specs have AoE baked into their rotation. Dealing with Bursting, Teeming, Fortified, Bolstering, etc. exemplify the differences in class choice more than player choice.

Following the release of Argus and the max reward from WQ, the health and damage of dungeon enemies was scaled to account for this. This can easily make players feel like we're just spinning our tires and was a poor way to handle the power creep. Instead, the max M+ required as well as the corresponding loot ilvl could increase along side with a new raid opening.

M+ needs to be further separated from the benefits of raiding, much in the same way I don't expect raiders to have a significant advantage in pvp. Using M+ to gear for M+ is pretty crummy right now. For the ilvl, raiding is easier and faster. Heroic Antorus will net you higher gear than M+ minus the single loot piece from the weekly chess. With the heavy use of raider.io/ivl to filter out players, one can quickly gimp M+ progress by refraining from raiding and nobody is doing high keystones without tier pieces and raid trinkets.
1) Gear
Titanforging needs to be toned down to 5-10 ilvls max. I would have suggested guaranteed loot at the end of an M+ run (or at least something slightly more interesting than AP), but with raid bonuses going away in BfA, I'm not dying for this change as much since they're spammable. That said, an increase in the number of drops wouldn't hurt much; I'm pretty sure it's been a few weeks since I've gotten non-AP loot from the end of an M+ run.

2) Affixes
Bursting need to be either something you can heal through or something that 100% kills you even with cooldowns. People will complain about Bursting, but I don't think it's punishing enough - DPS rely on healers to constantly heal through Bursting and stop complaining about their inability to intelligently pull constantly. Bursting is ACTUALLY a dps affix, and currently everyone sees it as a healer one, because it's not outright deadly enough. It should kill every single team member way sooner so they learn to kill things properly.

3) Classes
Too many classes either have overpowered toolkits in an M+ or absolutely no M+ value whatsoever. The playing field should be evened slightly, so that Skittish isn't just Roguehunter week. Talents can 100% help here, because homogenization is not ideal either.

4) More Built-In Tools
I want to know someone's basic M+ history in-game without using raiderio. Just a basic "what's the highest you've completed" and "how many times have you successfully completed x dungeon" for the group in group finder would be enough for me to make way more informed decisions.
Playing as a Warlock 1-5 is pretty much pointless. The entire group just bombs !@# past you by 200 yrds, then you finally catch up and they kill the packs and bomb $%^ past you again. Real fun. I felt like I was just running through dungeons and looting corpses. You're basically forced to take burning rush which really only makes you lag behind and kill yourself at the same time.

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