End of Legion Mythic+ Feedback

General Discussion
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I would be a fan of an in-game seasonal rating system akin to the pvp system (please don't reward gear through it) which tracks a player's ability to push higher keys for cosmetic rewards such as mounts, titles, or transmog.

The Tyrannical / fortified affixes swing the difficulty of the content a little too much, especially at higher levels. With a lot of the aoe damage nerfed in BFA and the BE racial removed, I believe that fortified will be significantly more difficult than it is on live, but it still may not be enough to compete with tyrannical. It's a bit of a balancing act, and rather than buff fortified further in order to compete, most players would be happy with a significant nerf or removal of these affixes.
What M+ does well:
  • Keeps dungeon content relevant longer.
  • Gives people a non-raid way of playing and gearing up.
  • Can ease people into harder combat via scaling.
  • What M+ does not do well:
  • Rewards are often not on par with the effort.
  • The way they scale ultimately punishes certain classes/specs due to lack of
    defensive cooldowns, for example shaman and priests in higher M+.
  • Focuses too much on burst cleave and aoe cc.
  • No control over keystones so it is difficult to practice a specific key.
  • Most affixes are basically dealt with by healers and ignored by other roles.
  • Things I would like to see:
    I would like to see the scaling focus more on the enemy health rather than just multiplying damage. As stated before everything is pretty much dealt with by the healers for affixes, and so too is the incredible damage scaling. Make mob health scale at a greater rate and ease how quickly damage scales. This puts a larger emphasis on efficiency rather than progression ending due to 1-shots, and lets classes without 1-shot prevention tools a way to continue to progress. It would also help deal with the unbelievable spam in the group finder of people selling carry runs (also an annoying issue).

    I would also like to see more diverse affixes. Most affixes either directly require a lot of aoe to counter, or if ignored by everyone else cause the healer to panic. More mechanics like the Darkheart Thicket Xavius fight where people have to either stack or spread to avoid silence/fear give people compelling reasons to do the mechanic without just causing someone to instantly die or cause the healer to panic. Similar things would be like reducing damage by 50% for ignoring X mechanic, or reducing haste by 75% for the player who ignored it.

    In particular bursting/quaking combination is really annoying to heal just because you blow a lot of mana aoe healing to keep everyone up, but then can't drink after because quaking wont let you. Why such the hate for healers? The worst dps have is explosive where they just tab-target and use an instant filler and then continue with their rotation.

    One other thing to work on is a way to see in game what ilvl would drop from a particular level of M+, or some kind of indication what ilvl is recommended to attempt a certain M+. Not changing the M+ difficulties at each patch would help the community learn how difficult each level is even if the end of expansion numbers get a little high.
    I usually only do 15/16s and don't push too much far higher on hunter and mage, for sake of what content I do. I like doing mythic plus once a week, banging it out, and moving on.

    Some affixes need some altering:

    Volcanic > Key thing here is terrain. Example is the sand pits in Eye of Ashzara, you can't see that in some instances.
    Quaking > not really fun or engaging as a DPS. Step slightly away and thats really all I can do about it. Also, it should only be active in combat.

    On dungeon boss amount vs reward:

    Even with the artifact power changes made vs boss amount later, people still flock to the shorter dungeons and will once AP becomes a side thing in BFA. A suggestion is to make it so the end of dungeon chest contains 1 item per boss, but if you don't +3 the dungeon, you get 1 less. So:

    4 boss dungeon example
    0 chest = 1 item
    1 chest = 2
    2 chest = 3
    3 chest = 4

    If you do a 5 boss dungeon +3, instead of someone getting 2 items at random, the entire team will get a bonus from a small pool of items (BFA Blood of Sargeras equivalent x5, maybe a big AP token, or war resources x1000.) Make this weekly so its not abused.

    There needs to be some punishment to abandoning a keystone.
    M+ is an incredible feature and one of my favourite additions to Legion. It's always something to do and getting a few other people together is not a highly difficult feat.

    As with any system I think there are some pain points.
    1. Some dps classes have uncapped aoe, this means they can heavily outperform other classes by pressing a singular ability and incetivizes doing massive pulls that some classes simply can't keep up with due the restrictive nature of their aoe toolkit. It shouldn't be possible to have one class burst for 80million dps while another dps spec bursts for 3million. (Fire Mage vs Shadow Priest in high keys)

    2. Healers need to burst heal in a lot of instance for M+, this has made pushing high keys favour Paladins and Druids far above the other healing specs (they also have the added benefit of having very high damage output ontop of being able to quickly top a group.

    3. Affixes being on a fixed rotation and fixed combinations made M+ feel stagnate after a while and lead to no particularly nasty combination out of the blue

    4. Certain dungeons are heavily favoured over others simply for the end of week reward rather than the end of dungeon reward once you hit a high enough ilvl.

    ---

    I have a few proposed solutions;
    1. Damage tuning for M+ I think was overlooked quite a lot, the disparities between some classes in terms of burst aoe and sustained aoe should be much much closer and more closely watched. A class that has amazing aoe should suffer on bosses and a class that has poor aoe should excel on bosses, this currently is not the case where classes that excel on mobs between bosses are also excelling in single target. Bring aoe damage down for all spec and in line and also tune mobs where massive burst is needed in some dungeons while sustained cleave and aoe exists in others.

    2. Reduce amount of damage bursting out and bring healers more in line with each other, raid niches should not apply in M+ and bring variety to dungeons to allow all healers to be punished in different ways.

    For both points 1 and 2 I think if the tuning team does a really good job with tuning and thinking about the way numbers affect playstyle and compositions it will make a massive difference. What would be wonderful to see is dungeons that cover more than one specific niche (burst aoe, sustained aoe, single target & cleave) where maybe some are more trash heavy (ie. Lower Kara) needing burst and sustained aoe in the comp but also having packs that require concentrated single target or having a dungeon that requires a lot of single target with challenging bosses and mini bosses (Vault of the Wardens) but also has 2 or 3 big aoe pulls or a pair of big mobs that require big cleaving down. I would think variable health ranges on mobs would be awesome where the same enemy as another could have 5-10% more or less health than another which makes stacking aoe less successful.

    3. Random affix change on each completion. If you have a Key with just the first affix of tyrannical or fortified it would be cool to see at the end of the dungeon it randomly rolling to the other or staying the same as there are only 2 options. Once second and third tier+ affixes are added it the same would happen but only one tier would reroll each time, this would allow for more interesting key progression and grinding for a day ontop of the random dungeon element.

    Another suggestion is Kiss/Curse affixes, Destiny 2 did an awesome job with that which had me playing different buids and making playstyle changes, it would allow for a very refreshing style of play and some excitement for greater affix combinations.

    4. Restrict end of dungeon chest to give loot from the highest dungeon you completed/completed the most of for the week, this would incentivise people to run dungeons which give them the loot they're looking for rather than what's easiest. Currently the end of week chest feels very boring once all of your gear has passed what it can give you and you are simply doing it on the off chance that the 1/120 pieces of loot comes out with a good titanforge. There isn't enough control in the players hand to grind out the best items they want.
    People have brought up gear options. What if you made special Mythic Plus item sets, but the set bonuses were *only* active in Mythic Plus dungeons, and maybe the set bonuses could be something generally appropriate for 5-person instances instead of spec-specific things that tier bonuses have been over the years? That way you wouldn't have raiders feeling like they needed to run mythic plus to get tier sets, but you still had something special that M+ players could work towards.

    You could earn currency each week or each run, whatever, and there could be different colorations of the set depending on how high a key that piece was from.
    Mythic+ has been an excellent system that has made me enjoy the game significantly more, but there were some things I did dislike that can be improved on.

    Affixes:
    Tyrannical VS Fortified seems like something that will be a huge challenge to ever balance perfectly so ideally it's either scrapped all together or nerfed to the point of not being hugely influential.

    Explosive is an example of one of my least favorite affixes as it is one that not only heavily emphasizes the strengths of some specs (which is generally okay) but also makes an equal or higher amount of specs terrible (not okay). Explosive makes specs like MM hunter, Elemental Shaman, Arms warrior, etc a burden to bring without covering them by catering the rest of the comp to them. Meanwhile things like fury warrior is invaluable. Ideally this affixes is removed or is reworked to spawn much less frequent orbs with more health (and a longer cast time) or something.

    Rewards:
    Since M+ has released and the score system has made it more appealing, I came to a realization that the game has almost no in game tracking for PvE. PvP gets rating and regular titles, PvE the only way to know someones progress is either a title from killing the last boss, manually comparing achievements with their main character to look for boss kills, or you can go to a 3rd party website. M+ has no in game indicator at all, that'd be something I'd like to see change. M+ seasons with title rewards and some sort of in game tracker would be a dream come true.

    Gear
    On the topic of rewards, it feels like mythic+ is always 1 step behind in terms of being able to gear a character compared to other content aside from that 1 or 2 week period where the cap increases as a raid releases. After that small period of time the raid takes over and is much superior. Additionally the cap to get the max ilvl loot seems to always be quite low in my opinion. Using current WoW as an example I'd like to see the cap increase to +20 with a max reward of at least 950, needing to get a +25 titanforge to even get close to an upgrade in any slot while simultaneously doing significantly harder content than the max feels bad. This would also help with the issue of groups requiring 30 ilvls over what the mythic+ level drops to join the group for lower keys because the geared players wouldn't be as interested in "low" keys.

    Balance
    I feel you guys already kind of know this but balancing with mythic+ in mind will definitely require a deeper look at defensive options, utility, and aoe vs ST damage for each spec. If a spec has very few defensive options, in order to be competitive they will need to have very strong damage or utility to make up for it, and no one spec can have it all or it will reign supreme like warlocks did for a long time. Also the class buffs are going to present a nightmare for mythic+, in particular the DH and Monk debuffs, please reconsider them as you can not realistically expect to have every class in a dungeon as you could in a raid. 5% extra damage is massive for any group and with any caster group you will basically be guaranteeing a DH spot, and any physical group you will be guaranteeing a monk.

    I may come back and write something else or edit this but these things were what immediately came to mind when I thought "Mythic+ feedback". I've really enjoyed mythic+ so far and I'm glad its continuing to be iterated on in the future.
    Here's my feedback, so here we go!

    1) Generally, i think Mythic+ Was the most welcoming feature in Legion, so keeping it would be tremendous, but will require a few tweaks, in my opinion.

    2) Why is the gear the same level as mythic progression when you hit the highest key level achievable? I don't like the idea of being able to spam dungeons at +10 to be able to get the same level gear as Heroic gear (I.E 7.3.5 with 945 ilvl) with almost the same stats that you could get in Antorus, or even minimum 965 on a +15, and the type of gear you should be able to get should be reduced down to Heroic level at best of the raid. It made it hurt from a raid standpoint more, because if you got a 930 piece of gear and you were wearing 925's, it made it to where you had to keep the loot and not distribute it to the raid since you have a lower item level, since some of the gear would be able to be used at the Mythic+ standpoint and be more beneficial, and hurt the others that are in the raid that are trying to gear.

    3) Scaling seems to be a large difference from a +9 to a +10 with the added affixes along with the added boss percentage health and damage and I think it would be more beneficial to have the scaling decrease slightly, just enough to where it doesnt go from difficult to impossible while trying to gear undergeared toons.

    Other than that, by all means, i think everything works just fine as far as mythic+ goes.
    M+ is the best form of content in Legion, imo.
    Raids were boring to tank and frustrating to get enough people together regularly. M+ could be put together much easier.

    The worst affixes were Skittish (because threat has never and will never be interesting gameplay) and Explosive (because they are so hard to target).
    Necrotic was kinda bad on specific tanks and there were certain packs that made it especially a pain and Bolster really made dungeons drag.
    Bursting was absurdly bad as a Disc priest.

    Tyrannical interacted poorly with a few bosses (HoV's Hyrja was the worst, like unplayably bad)

    The reward structure was a little sparse, mostly relying on titanforge to make it 'worth it' and there are many times that no one gets anything from running a m+. I would like to see some amount of evening of that, but I'm really hoping that BFA has a way to get raid equivalent weapons and Azerite armor as most the gear needed to titanforge to even remotely come close to competeing and I'm tired of being strong-armed into mythic raiding. I found doing high m+ was more challenging than tanking mythic High Command, for instance.

    High keys having unavoidable, random target damage made certain classes a liability due to not having good enough defensives. This was made worse when the target could be same character a number of times in a row with no chance to get a cooldown back up.

    I think M+ did a better job of providing a healthy variance of situations to allow other classes to stand out for different reasons than raids normally do as well as allowing the use of abilities in creative ways. (I love me some Ring of Peace shenanigans) I would love to see it expanded a bit more.

    I loved the change to remove the depletion of keys.
    * A guaranteed titanforge was probably too good for the weekly M+ chest; a titanforged +10 chest item needs much less effort than most Heroic Antorus raid bosses (only most because there's always a loot pinata like Eonar), never mind comparing the difficulty of completing a +15 without beating the timer to Mythic bosses.

    * Bolstering and Bursting are the two affixes I hate the most. The only PUG-able solution to them is to keep the pulls small & slow down DPS.

    * The leaderboard needs to maintain a lot more total player records if the community is going to insist on using raider.io as a metric.
    Mythic+ in Legion was a sucess and watching the MDI was also quite enjoyable.

    Most affixes were fine in my opinion (bursting my favorite as a healer) but some were quite annoying like Explosive and tyrannical being quite strong (40% boss health!!!)

    Now for higher keys, class balance was a mess.Tank side Blood DKs were clear winners and DH were following a bit behind. Healer balance was a problem with Hpally and Resto druid being at the top due to very good defensives and cheese like BoP on Moroes to remove garrote stacks.Other healers NEED better defensives to be on par with these 2 especially priest (desperate prayer really?).Tanks to be more balanced need to have around the same self-sustain and well, grip will always be Blood DKs thing so whatever.

    RP in dungeons like Halls and Court is also something that needs to go, it just breaks all the like "go go go" feeling of Mythic+

    One of my favorite thing was also getting the weekly chest

    Hope to see improvements to the system in BfA!
    M+ was one of the best features of legion and a very fun thing to do. Also, since you added the searching system for parties, we cold actually pug a group that was not ideal, but enough for some fun.

    It was very nice to do this just with your friends on a more focused group or pug it with random people.

    The only thing that's not good was the possibility of loosing a key because people left your group. I guess this was handled in the end, but this kind of punishment is just frustrating. I know that you need to prevent abuse, but I hope you always find a solution that's not punishing to other players.
    Side Note: the title of the thread makes it sound like you are no longer taking feedback for mythic + content.
    05/29/2018 05:06 PMPosted by Ythisens
    For the first one we're going to try one focused on Mythic+! We want to hear everything you guys have on this feature we introduced in Legion.


    Affixes can be up or down / good or bad, but should be random within columns. A certain affix from column one, from column two and from column three. You can add some, but please accept the results of randomisation.

    If we get a particularly hard set one week, then we have to take that bullet. Some might not complete, or might complete below par, that week. Equally, if we get an easy week, well then we're lucky and should be allowed it.

    What I don't want is to have a hard week of affixes made easy because some can't do it (as it cheapens things for those who can) - OR - have an easy week made harder because we got dealt a good hand.

    Spin the wheels and trust in "random"!
    05/29/2018 06:34 PMPosted by Akyza

    Volcanic > Key thing here is terrain. Example is the sand pits in Eye of Ashzara, you can't see that in some instances.

    [/quote]Carpets in Kara cover Sanguine
    Kill raider.io. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Hi,

    From a casual player who pugs M+:

    Pros:
    - Alternate route to raiding to get good gear
    - Always a challenge so the run doesn't become boring; the variety of affixes that gets thrown into the mix every week keeps this fresh
    - I really like that it forces me to learn dungeon mechanics; things that I just ignore in Heroics now can kill me if I leave them alone and just zerg through

    Cons:
    - At higher keys, even if we complete the dungeon in time after multiple wipes, a huge repair bill is waiting for us. I may not always get gear; just some unvendorable AP tokens. While I should not be rewarded for dying multiple times, if I do make the timer, why do I have a chance to get no loot and no gold to repair my stuff?

    MDI:
    - I am rather bored of watching the MDI because the tank is always the Blood DK. In the next MDI, I would suggest Blizzard put limits on classes for each team:
    1) In a best of 5 game, each tank class cannot be used more than twice, so if the teams hit game 5, they have to pull out their third tank class. If I use a Blood DK in games 1 and 2, I have to use say Pally in game 3, then maybe Brewmaster in games 4 and 5. Perhaps the same limits can be placed on healers and DPS as well; you cannot use the same class more than x times

    2) Put in cheese restrictions: I say this because I watched one MDI in Cathedral where everyone died on the ledge and the healer could stealth all the way to the second floor and mass rez. They could do this because the penalty per player is just 5 secs. I saw that scene and went "What?!". Now I do like to see innovative strategies being used, but I felt that "cheese" was a bit too much. Perhaps the 2nd floor rez needs to have a good look at.

    Future:

    - New affix: Power Overwhelming. For each player overgearing the end of dungeon loot ilevel, you have mobs/boss health increased by x% and timer reduced by y%. E.g. If the dungeon awards 950 loot and all 5 players are 970 geared, mob and boss health/dmg are increased by 4x5=20% and timer reduced by 10x5=50secs. This encourages people to play at their gear level and when they gear up, stop playing in the baby pool and move up to the adult's pool.

    - Positive Affixes: We always have negative affixes that hurt players, why not have positive ones? E.g. "A Motley Crew" Affix: If you have one of each armor type in your group (plate,mail,leather,cloth), gain a 1% dmg increase and 1% health. "We Need A Hero" Affix: Timer is reduced by x% if you do not use Heroism/Timewarp throughout the dungeon. "Stack Overflow" Affix: Each player within 5 yards of another gains a stacking buff of xyz. So if everyone stacks with the tank, you have a x5 buff, with all the associated dangers of getting boss cleaves of course.
    Even though it probably won't happen due to exclusivity being a no-go these days, I'd like titles for the top x times world (like the G'huun achievement) in a dungeon like challenge modes used to offer. These could be only usable until the next season concluded and they were handed out again like PVP titles or maybe actually permanent so different people can try for them each season.

    Something like these but less terrible:
    Freehold: <player>, Wane of the Irontide
    Atal'Dazar: Treasure Hunter <player>
    Tol Dagor: Jailbreaker <player>
    Waycrest Manor: <player> the Uninvited Guest
    Shrine of the Storm: <player> of Tidesages' Tales
    Siege of Boralus: <player>, Ashvane's Woe
    Temple of Sethraliss: <player>, Sethraliss' Savior
    Underrot: Rot Exterminator <player>
    Kings' Rest: <player>, Kings' End
    Motherlode: Venture Capitalizer <player>

    Also, there aren't enough hippos in the dungeons. Add hippos as an affix.
    I would like to see an M+ seasons system. Similar to arena system, with rating, rewards and achievements for each season. Not just gear and azerite
    As a player from early Legion, I stopped playing around Nighthold for various reasons. The best change coming back into it was that if you fail your key it only steps down by one level instead of becoming depleted. This makes pushing your key more accessible, however, in many cases the failure may be in part due to a particular dungeon being unfavorable. If the key would also reroll to a random dungeon when it steps down by one level it would help at least create some variety if you happen to fail a dungeon.
    Mythic+ as a system has been great for the game, and it was one of LEgion's defining features, but it did get stale towards the end of the expansion outside of people grinding the out-of-game "mythic+ score" and the weekly 15. In BFA, adding meta achievements each mythic+ season for say, completing a 10, 15, and 20 in every BFA dungeon, and rewarding players with challenge mode style cosmetics could be a great way to keep people pushing higher keys, and give an incentive every season to stay active in mythic+.

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