Retribution feedback

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Hey, just trying to keep one of these threads alive.

Here are the basic issues:

1. You gotta talent into Blade of Wrath and Divine Purpose to fill gaps in the rotation. Ret also has no baseline procs, which isn't the end of the world, but I feel like there's no theme to the spec, no heart to the rotation.

2. Some of us dislike the gameplay when Hammer of Wrath is available during Avenging Wrath. Surely there is some solution here where we get the basic execute baseline and then a talent adds additional functionality?

3. Judgment should deal significantly less damage than BoJ and have a 7.5 sec CD. This would accomplish two things: give Judgment a stronger identity by placing the emphasis on the debuff, and plug some of those massive gaps in the rotation.

4. Maybe some people really like Divine Steed, but it's evident that a lot of people really don't. Can it get the Wraith Walk treatment and be moved to our talent tree in place of Cavalier? Then we could get something baseline that most of us would be happy with like Long Arm or Pursuit of Justice.

5. Greater blessings are boring and largely ineffectual. Could we get some changes here to liven up the spec, particularly to Kings?
Bump. I agree with this feedback for the most part.

Blade of Wrath feels great, but when you don't take it you feel like you really are missing something.

2hp gen on a proc that is ~3rd in overall damage contribution is just too important not to take. Where does Fires of Justice fit in that row? In Legion it sped up the rotation, in BfA, thus far, it doesn't feel that way. Hammer of Wrath needs more tweaking as others have stated (and perhaps an animation update, but I'll take whatever I can get).

Also I am practically spamming this idea at this point, but here goes again: I really would like to see Divine Vengeance stack on HP spent, NOT on enemies hit. Further, I think it should be a separate attack, not a Judgment steroid. It would give us something to build toward and also would compensate for down-time in pve and pvp when we will likely be off target quite often. As it is the talent is an outlier in niche design on that tier. Most players will likely take Wake of Ashes due to its immediate strengths as an opener/builder/cleave/slow.
Some minor tweaks for ret would really be cool. At this point, reducing our downtime (whatever way) and giving Divine Steed the ability to break roots and snares would be enough for me.

Churchmouse's suggestions would be appreciated of course.

Edit: on a side note: I've always been a big fan of Divine Purpose, I really like proc gameplay. I read quite often, that DP is worse than the other talents, but buffing it to 25% proc chance would be to overpowered. Where comes this rule from, that ist has to be 20, 25 or 30%? Perhaps 22, 22.5 or 23% would be the sweet spot. Just asking...
Going to echo that blade of wrath feels pretty much mandatory for keeping the rotation interesting.

Ideally, both Blade of Wrath and Hammer of Wrath would be baseline. Then talents could allow Hammer of Wrath to be usable during Avenging Wrath/Crusade and maybe a talent for making Blade of Wrath trigger more often or something.
...or let BoJ apply a dot, perhaps.;-)
Or both.

Edit: if that talent row is about Holy power generation, we could also add a talent, that reduces the cd of BoJ and/or Judgment (given that BoW would be baseline).
Or: "Blade of Wrath now also affects Judgment"
You forgot :

L60 : Divine judgment has no place on this row. Both Consecrate and Wake of Ashes are AoE Holy Power Generator options. Divine Judgment is a ST damage boost that is bigger if you cleave mobs with Divine Storm. It creates a ST vs AoE talent choice where you'll switch it based on the fight type only, not because of "gameplay style" choice.

L60 : Consecrate is much weaker than Wake of Ashes due to the tank having control whether mobs stand in it or not and the fact that it is 1 Holy Power per 20 seconds, vs 1 per 9 seconds for Wake of Ashes. Prot/Holy got a change to Consecrate to make it more tolerant to movement, Retribution should get the same (4.5 second cooldown, 12 second duration). At the same time, Consecrate could provide 1 Holy Power per cast, but the effect not be able to occur more than once every 10 seconds. That would make it more on par Holy Power generation wise to Wake of Ashes.

As it stands, L60, Wake of Ashes is the defacto pick not because of how strong it is, but because of how Weak Consecrate is, and how niche Divine Judgment is (no Holy Power, no AoE/Cleave gains for a spec that has little baseline).
06/06/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Erriden
Hammer of Wrath needs more tweaking as others have stated (and perhaps an animation update, but I'll take whatever I can get).
HoW had it's CD lengthened, and I'm fairly sure it was done so that it didn't over-fill the rotation when it's available. However, if it was allowed to do that, it could have more damage attached to it (because it'd have to compensate for the abilities it was pushing out of the rotation), and it would make the rotation a bit more interesting when it was up, because you'd have to actually prioritise your attacks and not just hit stuff that's off CD, which is how the rotation is at the moment without talents.
06/06/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Sharrow
06/06/2018 12:10 AMPosted by Erriden
Hammer of Wrath needs more tweaking as others have stated (and perhaps an animation update, but I'll take whatever I can get).
HoW had it's CD lengthened, and I'm fairly sure it was done so that it didn't over-fill the rotation when it's available. However, if it was allowed to do that, it could have more damage attached to it (because it'd have to compensate for the abilities it was pushing out of the rotation), and it would make the rotation a bit more interesting when it was up, because you'd have to actually prioritise your attacks and not just hit stuff that's off CD, which is how the rotation is at the moment without talents.


I see what you are saying here. I've done some testing with different setups trying to see if I can find a good justification for Hammer of Wrath, and what I found is that even with Crusade I only got a total of 15 casts off in a five min session on a dummy, with Inquisition I got off 10. The extra time attached to Crusade plus the fact that we get more temporary haste from it made me think Execution Sentence/Hammer of Wrath/Crusade would be the optimal way to give HoW a chance to shine.

My findings were that it didn't really shine that much. It was 7.5% of my dps with Crusade and 6.3% with Inquisition. Obviously we are missing the execute phase on a dummy but I tested what I could. As a rough comparison I have a trinket which is ~5% of my damage on most tests.

I'm sitting at 30% mastery so during Execution Sentence that's roughly a 50% increase to holy damage if I am thinking correctly—even so I couldn't get Hammer of Wrath to be more than a footnote of my dps.

Now, I'm not complaining that it needs more damage or that it needs to be a much higher contribution to overall dps, I was just somewhat surprised by my findings. I see some people wanting HoW to be a locked execute that really does hit like a truck, and I know others want it to remain as is. For me, it falls into the category of missing something, like several other talents we have.

Right now, I take it when I go out to pvp. It has been extremely valuable in pvp situations because I spend hardly any time on target (Execution Sentence/Hammer of Wrath/Hammer of Reckoning are about the only way to get out damage in some scenarios). I don't like that there would be a talent in the pve tree that is far more useful in pvp, but I suppose that is another discussion altogether.
Some small suggestions:

- I like how Consecration works now. Just add a snare to help mobs stay in place, and maybe shave a second off the duration. This would make it competitive with Wake of Ashes.

- Reduce Blinding Light's cooldown by 30 sec and duration by 2 sec. This would allow it to line up with HoJ in PvP.

- Justicar's Vengeance: reduce the holy power cost to 3, and then its damage relative to Templar's Verdict by whatever seems appropriate. JV is only useful when you can cheat past the absurd 5 holy power cost (via Divine Purpose) which greatly diminishes its overall value.
Hammer of Reckoning

I actually brought that up in the Divine Steed thread, HoR is so much more fun than HoW, and it makes Greater Blessing placement actually factor in to your gameplay in EVERY scenario from raids to world quests. Hell, you could even do something like make hits on the GBoK target add the Reckoning stacks and hits on the GBoW target reduce the CD, but disallow both spells to be on the same target; remove Greater Blessings from the GCD and allow us to hot-swap buffs as needed. It's not gonna happen, but I like the idea. With the AV buff duration from HoR being dropped to 6s now, it'd basically be like getting a nice damage buff on your next 3-4 attacks every 30-40 seconds, or adding 6 seconds to the duration of you hit HoR during AV/Crusade

It's a shame it's locked behind PVP and War Mode right now.
06/06/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Churchmouse
- I like how Consecration works now. Just add a snare to help mobs stay in place, and maybe shave a second off the duration. This would make it competitive with Wake of Ashes.


Uh ?

You want it to last 5 seconds, on a 20 second cooldown, so still 3 Holy Power per 60 seconds, not to mention "Snare" things where a tank will yell at you for messing his position or getting you killed as he moves away and the "snared" mob suddenly eats the rogue (snared as in rooted, not slowed, mobs switch to the closest target if the target they have aggro on goes out of range you know, in PvE).

That won't make it compete with Wake of Ashes at all. Consecrate works poorly now. I don't get what you "like" about it honestly.
06/06/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Erriden
It was 7.5% of my dps with Crusade


You know, that's a pretty nice contribution to overall DPS for a talent. Crusade was about 15% in Legion and that was called "way too strong for a talent" very often. I think the benchmark they aim for is around 5% DPS gain for a talent.

BoW is harder to quantify, as procs won't give you a completely "Free" cast, since they can happen with as little as 1 second left on the cooldown, and go often not give you any benefit (it would have come off cooldown on its own before your next use, proc or no proc), but it's probably in the same ballpark honestly.

06/06/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Erriden
I see some people wanting HoW to be a locked execute that really does hit like a truck, and I know others want it to remain as is. For me, it falls into the category of missing something, like several other talents we have.


HoW as we have it now as a talent is exactly the same HoW we had in Warlords or Mists. I don't get what you guys think is missing. It's the ability you've been clamoring to get back.
Your requirement that Cons generate as much holy power as Wake is arbitrary - they can be balanced via damage. And a snare in WoW is a slow, not a root.

Some minor suggestions:

- Change Fires of Justice from a floating holy power that requires an add-on to track, to "Crusader Strike has a chance to generate an additional holy power." Then have FoJ also extend the holy power bar to 6 maximum holy power. Many of us sort of forget this talent exists, but with these changes I would find it more compelling.

- Give the Retribution passive a graphic. I don't particularly like the mechanic, but if it's here to stay then at least give it some flavor.

- Give all hybrid specs mass res. Why not?
06/06/2018 05:34 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Your requirement that Cons generate as much holy power as Wake is arbitrary - they can be balanced via damage. And a snare in WoW is a slow, not a root.


To be as useful on single target it pretty much has to. Balancing it through damage just further focus on Consecrate's weakness of being tied to a single spot.

A slow also doesn't garantee the mobs stay in it the full duration either, so that's just a poor band-aid.

If we do not get the Holy/Prot Consecrate mobility fix (4.5 seconds cooldown, 12 second duration), it will suffer the same fate as it did in Legion. And in Legion, it was a DPS gain on 2 mobs. Look at how many people actually used it.

06/06/2018 05:34 PMPosted by Churchmouse
- Change Fires of Justice from a floating holy power that requires an add-on to track, to "Crusader Strike has a chance to generate an additional holy power." Then have FoJ also extend the holy power bar to 6 maximum holy power. Many of us sort of forget this talent exists, but with these changes I would find it more compelling.


Fires of Justice is fine as is. Do we even have Sims comparing it to BoW/HoW yet ? I have not seen anything hard number wise yet and have been too lazy to set up Simcraft from the BfA branch. This is more of a number tuning issue. It provides a good playstyle choice and requires no outside add-on to track (I don't get what you even mean by that. TV lights up with only 2 HoPo ? That's TFoJ).

The only reason we "forgot" it existed is because in T21, Greater Judgment synergized with our set bonus. Otherwise, we used it quite a bit in Legion, especially when we had the Divine Hammer meta, where TFoJ shined paired with the longer cooldown DH.
06/06/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Beraht
Fires of Justice is fine as is. Do we even have Sims comparing it to BoW/HoW yet ?

This is about mechanics: you always hear how much people love Blade of Wrath, while Fires of Justice is only functional, adequate. But being able to store 6 holy power may open up interesting possibilities.

Anyway, this is a minor suggestion and not worth arguing over.
06/05/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Hey, just trying to keep one of these threads alive.

Here are the basic issues:

1. You gotta talent into Blade of Wrath and Divine Purpose to fill gaps in the rotation. Ret also has no baseline procs, which isn't the end of the world, but I feel like there's no theme to the spec, no heart to the rotation.

2. Some of us dislike the gameplay when Hammer of Wrath is available during Avenging Wrath. Surely there is some solution here where we get the basic execute baseline and then a talent adds additional functionality?

3. Judgment should deal significantly less damage than BoJ and have a 7.5 sec CD. This would accomplish two things: give Judgment a stronger identity by placing the emphasis on the debuff, and plug some of those massive gaps in the rotation.

4. Maybe some people really like Divine Steed, but it's evident that a lot of people really don't. Can it get the Wraith Walk treatment and be moved to our talent tree in place of Cavalier? Then we could get something baseline that most of us would be happy with like Long Arm or Pursuit of Justice.

5. Greater blessings are boring and largely ineffectual. Could we get some changes here to liven up the spec, particularly to Kings?


Agreed. It's a slap in the face to give hammer of wrath back as a talent competing with blade of wrath. If you look at the new fury warrior build, the new execute is literally hammer of wrath, functionally the same.It looks like a HoW build is currently simming higher than a BoW build but not by much so I'll likely continue playing with BoW unless something changes. As much as I miss HoW and want it back, I'm not sacrificing rotational integrity outside of wings/execute for it. I wanna play my spec, not watch it do stuff.

I agree with the rest, I wish we had other options for mobility. I miss Long Arm of the Law, I'd love to see it come back, even if it came back as a separate entity. I wouldnt mind if it added a few yards to our melee range similar to balance affinity.

I really dislike inquisition, Im not a fan of maintenance buffs and am sad to see it return to the game.

Last, i'd like to anecdote on aesthetics. I wish Blade of justice would go back to being exorcism, even if the range was dropped down to the same as Blade. It feels aesthetically better to use a spell we've had since vanilla than something randomly changed on a whim. It doesn't match our spec. The new divine storm is also a very weak point. We had an outstanding visual on old divine storm, I cant imagine the reasoning behind the sheer downgrade in it's animation. I'd love to see it come back.

If you havent seen the old divine storm or forgot what it looks like, this is it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnJwIDU2UL8
Blade of Wrath and Divine Purpose, one of the two need to come baseline. Just for the rotational integrity alone. Downtime does not feel fun, it feels like your messing up your rotation, or just doing something wrong. It also presents a trap for new players as well.

Oh I got a couple seconds to wait, I'll cast a heal or two, not realizing it'll reset their swing timer. With the buff to auto attacks across the board, this is a nasty trap, Blizzard.

AoE: Divine Judgement does not make any sense where its at. Its a single target ability in an AoE row. Consecration already has issues competing with Wake of Ashes (fixed in place, lower HoPo generation, and lacks the situational CC baked into WoA.) A more compelling talent would be Divine Hammer from Legion.

Without talents, rets AoE feels stale, uninterractive, and very painful. You really notice the loss of the cleave on judgement. Is it really that OP to have it bounce to 1 or 2 extra targets?

Greater Blessings: I can't say this enough...they are not fun.

Mobility: Its an uphill battle, but at the least, give us a glyph to use the Speed of Light animation instead of the mount. Several races suffer d/t their size and colliding with the enviroment.

Judgement: The new effect on it is really meh. You consume it almost as quick as its up, and hardly even notice it.

As it stands, ret does not feel fun at the moment. Single target with the right talents is fine, but AoE just feels bad. Hoping to see some of the love some of the other specs have gotten recently.
06/06/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Dremall
Blade of Wrath and Divine Purpose, one of the two need to come baseline. Just for the rotational integrity alone. Downtime does not feel fun, it feels like your messing up your rotation, or just doing something wrong. It also presents a trap for new players as well.


Honestly, they just need to undo the increase on Crusader Strike's cooldown.

That was completely unneeded. That's the reason for long wait times in BfA without BoW/DP

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