Retribution feedback

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It doesn't on live, so unless the change is intended I would assume its a bug. It would be a nice improvement since you could wake for HP into a WoG for survival, but I can't think of any real uses for not hitting with wake besides that.
06/07/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Churchmouse
06/07/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Zaim
I think FoJ needs a higher proc chance for sure. (And again, a screen graphic)

There's no room for a third spell alert. How about this?

Fires of Justice: Your Crusader Strike's cooldown is reduced by 1 sec and Crusader Strike has a 15% chance to grant an additional holy power. In addition, you may have a maximum of 6 holy power.

FoJ originally granted holy power directly to your bar, but was changed to reduce the cost of your next finisher because you weren't able to use Crusader Strike at 4 holy power without potentially wasting a proc. I think extending the holy power bar to 6 is an elegant solution to this and honestly would just be fun to try out.


I don't know, I don't see much use in getting an extra holy power charge when we can't even fill pass 4 now. I guess it'd be cool to try and bank 6 holy power, with Divine Purpose, to try and land a chain of Templar's Verdicts in PvP, but yeah. I don't think it'll matter to much as it stands now.

06/07/2018 07:55 PMPosted by Ulzael
-Hammer of Wrath: Needs to not be available in Wings and perhaps usable at 35% HP or lower and deal much more damage.


An execute being talented feels terrible, I personally think having the ability to cast it with Wings is it's only saving grace.

However, Hammer of Wrath only feels viable with Crusade, due to the GCD change and the extended CD on HoW. It'd be nice to maybe make it so that casting Wings automatically also casts a Hammer (off the GCD) if you have an enemy targeted?

Not sure how that'll work, unless we can get something off the GCD.

I'd love to spec into HoW and Crusade, but again, (and again, and again) having no baseline proc makes BoW and DP feel mandatory.
06/07/2018 08:53 PMPosted by Vaerume
It doesn't on live, so unless the change is intended I would assume its a bug. It would be a nice improvement since you could wake for HP into a WoG for survival, but I can't think of any real uses for not hitting with wake besides that.


Probably changed to match Consecrate that also grants HoPo without damaging mobs.

06/07/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Zaim
An execute being talented feels terrible


My Warlock right now on Live has a talented Execute. In fact, Warlocks have 2 Execute talents I believe. Doesn't feel terrible at all.

I believe Death Knights also have a talented execute, Soul Reaper, that used to be baseline, same as Soulburn for Warlocks that became a talent.

It's not uncommon.

06/07/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Zaim
I'd love to spec into HoW and Crusade, but again, (and again, and again) having no baseline proc makes BoW and DP feel mandatory.


Honestly if they fixed the wait time by lowering CS CD back down to legion levels, I would play without procs.

Predictable damage is best damage. Waiting with nothing off cooldown is what feels terrible and makes these "try to fill GCD" talents feel mandatory.
06/07/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Beraht
Consecrate wouldn't have any issues if it simply used the Prot/Holy mechanic of 4.5 sec CD/12 sec duration and have lower ticking damage to account for 100% uptime. It would also allow to have it compete on HoPo generation, which fuels more button presses, which is basically Ret's #1 issue right now IMO, the downtime just makes the spec painful (figuratively speaking) to play.

Tier 60 is an odd place to try to solve our downtime issues, and besides, Cons and Wake add the same number of globals to the rotation. Isn't that a good thing?

As for the general design of Cons, I really don't want to chase after the tank spamming it all over the place. It can be timed reasonably well thanks to the cooldown increase and duration reduction, and if you want to make it easier to time, then like I said shave another sec off and add a snare.
06/07/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Beraht
Honestly if they fixed the wait time by lowering CS CD back down to legion levels, I would play without procs.

Predictable damage is best damage. Waiting with nothing off cooldown is what feels terrible and makes these "try to fill GCD" talents feel mandatory.


I personally like the feeling of procing more damage, it makes it feel more exciting. Like Killing Machine on a frost dk, you see something appear on your screen and you know that your next hit is going to crit and do some good damage. Feels good.

I really like Divine Purpose because of that, that feeling of chaining a few TVs back to back, or getting a "free" JV/WoG feels good. Doesn't feel like you had to lose out on 5 Holy Power to get a small self heal.

On a some-what related note, WoG having a 1 min recharge on Beta feels awful. I was playing with that a bit and it's just like Divine Steed. Going 2 min without casting a heal, especially at the cost of 3 Holy Power is just absurd.

Why do these extremely long recharges exist??
06/07/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Churchmouse
As for the general design of Cons, I really don't want to chase after the tank spamming it all over the place. It can be timed reasonably well thanks to the cooldown increase and duration reduction, and if you want to make it easier to time, then like I said shave another sec off and add a snare.


However, the lower the duration, the higher the per tick damage, the more punishing "losing a tick" becomes. It's a double edged sword. Simply being able to reapply it 1/3rd of the CD in solves the issue at the cost of a GCD, which we have plenty of right now.

L60 is not a place to solve our GCD issues of that you are right. Baseline is where it should be solved. Bring back Legion Crusader Strike.

06/07/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Zaim
I really like Divine Purpose because of that, that feeling of chaining a few TVs back to back, or getting a "free" JV/WoG feels good. Doesn't feel like you had to lose out on 5 Holy Power to get a small self heal.


I honestly dislike DP because of this. At some point, you're looking at your Generators off CD, your BoW proc that you're still not using, and you're still capped on HoPo, with Wake off CD for 5 seconds already... and DP keeps proccing and Holy Power doesn't drain...

... and then when you finally manage to get everything back under control, it stops proccing. Forever, except now you're late on everything, things aren't lined up anymore.

Predictable damage still feels better and more controlled. Having to rely on a string of DP procs during Crusade to even get a chance to parse on Live is pretty infuriating.

It might be more "fun" in a reactionary way, but in a competitive way, it's simply not. Both playstyles should be available, which is why a baseline rotation with less downtime makes sense, as it enables the Inq/Crusade - HoW builds to work without suffering massive "Vanilla style auto attack" droughts.

Ultimately, I have my doubts Blizzard will even manage to balance these rows and we'll end up playing whatever does more DPS anyway, regardless of what playstyle it is. Though one can hope.
So again no changes? That really sucks.
06/07/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Belerian
So again no changes? That really sucks.


Considering it was Arms and Survival that got "blue posts" prior to last build, that's not surprising.

Until you see a blue post pop up in a Retribution thread, don't expect massive changes to Ret in a build.
06/07/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Zaim
I really like Divine Purpose because of that, that feeling of chaining a few TVs back to back, or getting a "free" JV/WoG feels good. Doesn't feel like you had to lose out on 5 Holy Power to get a small self heal.


We definitely need more of this. Abilities that are fun and make you choose based on your situation. Not the same boring generator/builder rotation with very little change. The class ring lego basically saved Legion Ret when it comes to the spec actually being fun.

They need to revert back to WoD in a lot of way to make the spec fun and useful again. HFC Ret was probably one of my favorite iterations of the spec.

06/07/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Beraht
Predictable damage still feels better and more controlled. Having to rely on a string of DP procs during Crusade to even get a chance to parse on Live is pretty infuriating.


Sucking the last remnant of fun out of the spec so people can parse sounds horrible. Tuning should be done after the spec already has a solid rotation and fun gameplay.

Ret has almost always had procs and it should have them again to keep it from the dullness that's infected the baseline rotation at the moment.
06/07/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Beraht
I honestly dislike DP because of this. At some point, you're looking at your Generators off CD, your BoW proc that you're still not using, and you're still capped on HoPo, with Wake off CD for 5 seconds already... and DP keeps proccing and Holy Power doesn't drain...


I've never been that lucky to be that unlucky :P

I'm not sure if possible through coding, but maybe make Divine Purpose baseline, but unable to proc off of itself? So you can't get a string of procs?

So this way it's something to look out for more then to hope for. Like okay, I got a free proc, is it worth casting Inquisition or WoG or should I just hit another finisher?

The Ret tree feels very cookie cutter build spec right now, which is fine cause there's a few options, but the cost of using certain builds just feels to steep.

It feels like if you want one talent, you kindof lock yourself into that certain build.

IE I really want to use HoW, but I certainly cannot go Inquisition then.
06/07/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Tbolt
Sucking the last remnant of fun out of the spec


Fun is subjective. Next time, instead of pouncing, read on :

06/07/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Beraht
Both playstyles should be available


I prefer more predictable damage. Some controlled procs that aren't spammy like DP tends to be are nice. BoW is ok for instance. It doesn't go on these long chains that simply start to feel like your rotation is going out the window.

Honestly, the build I was looking forward to myself in BfA though was TFoJ/Inq. TFoJ has a nice out of the way proc, Inq is steady damage, always available. HoW on fights where Execute phase is more important here and there to change it up some.

Talenting to fill GCDs in and of itself feels really punishing and seems to hinder choice unless you're ready to sit there looking at the paint dry on your walls.

06/07/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Tbolt
Ret has almost always had procs


It's almost as if there was feedback on the forums about Ret having too many procs which resulted in the current drought of untalented procs as Blizzard always tends to over-correct because the forums have massive hyperbolic rants about every little issue...

;)

Damn Tier 17 uh ?

06/07/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Zaim
I've never been that lucky to be that unlucky :P

I'm not sure if possible through coding, but maybe make Divine Purpose baseline, but unable to proc off of itself? So you can't get a string of procs?


They could make it PPM, which would make it somewhat more predictable, rather than flat chance of proc.

06/07/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Zaim
The Ret tree feels very cookie cutter build spec right now, which is fine cause there's a few options, but the cost of using certain builds just feels to steep.


Well most of your builds will be L30, L60, L100 choices mixed and matched. L15 seems to be just throwaway outside of ES adding actual flavor. Righteous Verdict looks like more of an Azerite Trait than a talent honestly. I seriously want to like it, but it's not the Cloak buff without affecting DS and TV. Zeal is just massively boring.
06/07/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Beraht
Extending the Holy Power bar to 6 then makes you unable to use CS at 5 Holy Power. You've not actually fixed the issue.

Of course, but that situation would be less common than if the holy power bar could only store 5 holy power. Being able to hold 6 holy power gives you more leeway in resource management, and if FoJ ever needed a buff, many of us would be happy to bump the proc rate up to 20%.

I want the holy power to go directly to the holy power bar because that's easier to track. Currently, if you get a proc at anything other than 2 holy power (which causes TV to light up) you won't know about it until your next GCD. This causes the proc, which should be exciting, to feel after-the-fact and not impactful.
What if Hammer of Wrath were a baseline execute (not enabled by Wings) and then tier 30 allowed it to be used at any percent? If this is OP, the talent could also increase the cooldown by a few seconds.

I'm trying to think of a way for HoW to fill up globals and generate holy power on a regular basis like a good tier 30 talent should.

06/07/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Tbolt
Ret has almost always had procs and it should have them again to keep it from the dullness that's infected the baseline rotation at the moment.

I strongly agree with this. A spec should have a strong baseline identity.
06/07/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I strongly agree with this. A spec should have a strong baseline identity.


I don't feel Procs is the baseline Ret identity.

I feel Holy Power management is. Right now, with gaps in the rotation, that is what feels lacking. You're not managing Holy Power, you're Wack-a-moling abilities.

06/07/2018 09:57 PMPosted by Churchmouse
This causes the proc, which should be exciting, to feel after-the-fact and not impactful.


Honestly, it's great that not all our procs are "Casino slot machine" style noise. It's nice to have those tamer out of the way procs for more steady gameplay styles.

I get you guys want the exciting reactionary gameplay, but let's not turn Ret into just that. It can be both things in BfA with the talent variety we have.

Both sides here want to fix the glaring wait time issue though, as right now it feels punishing not speccing for maximum GCD filling, rather than speccing for interesting gameplay that is either RNG proccy or Steady.
06/07/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Churchmouse
What if Hammer of Wrath were a baseline execute (not enabled by Wings) and then tier 30 allowed it to be used at any percent? If this is OP, the talent could also increase the cooldown by a few seconds.

I'm trying to think of a way for HoW to fill up globals and generate holy power on a regular basis like a good tier 30 talent should.


I was touching on this yesterday, but to me personally, I think Divine Purpose going baseline would be the best solution to the down time.

I think Tier 30 is fine in itself, if we had Divine Purpose. Because getting BoW baseline, along with a new talent, feels like the shift would be to great in Holy Power generation. Especially now that Judgment and Consecration generates a Holy Power too.

Imagine having Divine Purpose, Fires of Justice, Consecration, and Blade of Wrath. I know it doesn't seem like much, but with Fires of Justice reducing the cost of Holy Power spenders, and Divine Purpose, BoW procs would just almost cap you on Holy Power.

It could lead into extremes of having to hit TV to often and not having the option to hit other low priority abilities such Consecration. (Just for example, Consecration may not be low priority)

However, having Divine Purpose baseline means that you could spec into HoW and Crusade and have a more consistent build overall, without BoW or FoJ procs. But still have that bonus of Divine Purpose procs.

So it's kindof meeting in the middle.

HoW being usable with Wings has been in the game for quite some time. The GCD change kindof messed it up, but with Crusade, its possible to get off.

Divine Purpose can then also be used to utilize abilities like Inquisition and JV without feeling "forced" to take that talent.

As it stands now, hitting Inquisition isn't to much fun with our slow rotation, however, if you had Divine Purpose too, then there's a chance you could get a proc off of Inquisition and instantly hit a damaging finisher, that would feel less punishing.

I think Divine Purpose going baseline, with a shorter cooldown on Judgement or CS is the answer here. It's an exciting proc that gives choice in which ability to use and doesn't over cap Holy Power generation.
06/07/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Zaim
As it stands now, hitting Inquisition isn't to much fun with our slow rotation


Inquisition was never fun.

Still better than Holy Wrath.
06/07/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Beraht
Inquisition was never fun.

Still better than Holy Wrath.


AoE undead stun, though!

I just don't like the fact that I cannot spec into Inquisition without specing into BoW, to me it feels to slow otherwise. Spec into RV, HoW, Divine Judgement, and Inquisition and prepare to take the nap train to snoozeville.
Idk, ret has had powerful procs since the end of wotlk with the tier bonus, it's been known as the casino spec for a while. maybe wod took it too far for some but I enjoyed the playstyle. it is kinda rng dependant but also depends on how well you adapt to the procs, which some people just aren't good at.

I don't think more procs will fix our downtime but I do think ret should have a baseline proc somewhere, thats in line with how it's been forever minus legion. Hell the reason people use the highlord ring is because it's fun. It sims pretty on par with the belt/liadrins, but the extra proc keeps you engaged.

I just ran some dungeons on beta with some guildies of mine so we were all mythic antorus geared and on ST I was generally a good chunk ahead of everyone, I don't feel weak, but !@#$ man I'm bored. It gets to a point where I have nothing to push for several seconds. I dont want that, I want gcd locked or very near it.

Inquisition was never fun.


qft. youd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with this. inquisition blows.
06/07/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Auras
Hell the reason people use the highlord ring is because it's fun.


Well the actual reason to be fair is that it has the highest damage potential. Sims give you an average and on average, it's still slightly better than Liadrin's since Cloak shines again after the Belt indirect nerf and Cloak synergizes well with Divine Purpose.

Then you add the damage potential of "luck" and the ring is just basically what you'll need to parse high.

06/07/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Auras
qft. youd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with this. inquisition blows.


Grognard would berate us for saying so.

Where is Grognard anyway ?

Haven't seen him since late WoD. Rip.

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