Retribution feedback

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/07/2018 10:44 PMPosted by Beraht
Well the actual reason to be fair is that it has the highest damage potential.


It also has the lowest damage potential. It's just more fun than the other options.
06/07/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Auras
qft. youd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with this. inquisition blows.


Inquisition just doesn't feel like it synergies well with anything else since it's on the same tier as Divine Purpose.

Divine Purpose works with ES, Righteous Verdict, FoJ, Wake of Ashes, Divine Judgement, JV, WoG.

Crusade works with ES (bonus damage window), HoW, BoW, Wake of Ashes (burst damage), WoG (healing), benefits from Righteous Verdict

Inquisition works with BoW and FoJ a bit just cause it's less punishing to use, everything else just feels like it's competing vs Inquisition in Holy Power usage. WoG cost holy power, JV cost holy power, ES costs Holy power, etc...

Edit: I don't like Execution Sentence or Inquisition. We have Judgement debuffs and AW buffs, we don't need 2 more. These should combine somehow so that the spec has less overall damage modifiers to juggle. Also, this could give Inquisition damage so it doesn't feel so punishing to use every 45 seconds.
Remove Divine Steed, make Long Arm of the Law return as baseline and put Falling Sword From D3/HotS in Ret's talent tree in place of Cavalier.

That or Yrel's HotS dive (weird how Turalyon and Yrel get Holy dive abilities while Ret receives no update)
06/07/2018 10:50 PMPosted by Zaim
Inquisition works with BoW and FoJ a bit just cause it's less punishing to use, everything else just feels like it's competing vs Inquisition in Holy Power usage. WoG cost holy power, JV cost holy power, ES costs Holy power, etc...


Consuming 3 holy power for a spell that has no immediate damaging effect feels bad. It felt bad in cata/mop and it feels bad now, it will always feel bad. The damage and haste is barely noticeable, but it's the top simming talent for the top13 builds currently and it sucks.


Remove Divine Steed, make Long Arm of the Law return as baseline and put Falling Sword From D3/HotS in Ret's talent tree in place of Cavalier.
I can get behind this. i thought for sure we were gonna get the falling sword spell in legion considering Arator has a spell thats essentially it. They could have used the old "Turalyon's Might" talent name for it.

Id also enjoy the old LAotL back as well, but I also wouldnt mind if they hanged it to give a few more yards on your melee range similar to balance affinity.
I'm not saying baseline Ret should be a proc fiesta, but procs are part of our identity and holy power management isn't enough. Consider Unholy which has at least four different balls to juggle, and on top of that Sudden Doom is a baseline proc.

I agree with Zaim that either Blade of Wrath or Divine Purpose should go baseline, and then either Crusader Strike or Judgment should have its cooldown reduced. I suggest Judgment because I find CS to be a very bland ability, and lowering its CD would make Fires of Justice less appealing to me than it already is.

Basically, I don't want to spam our filler when instead I could be buffing TV more frequently via Judgment. That's been the soul of Judgment since day one: a debuff on the enemy that benefits the paladin. But with Judgment on a 12 sec CD, it's barely noticeable.
06/07/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Churchmouse
holy power management isn't enough.
It really isn't. I played ww monk, got both bis legendaries and played it enough to know that to be true. chi management on a ww monk is so boring, their rotation is so predictable, I cant keep myself engaged.

06/07/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I agree with Zaim that either Blade of Wrath or Divine Purpose should go baseline, and then either Crusader Strike or Judgment should have its cooldown reduced.


I agree as well.
06/07/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Elizavette
(weird how Turalyon and Yrel get Holy dive abilities while Ret receives no update)


You didn't see our updates? Steed got a 15 second increased cooldown then they gave us an Azerite bonus to reduce it by 10 seconds....

Enjoy BFA!
06/07/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Auras
Consuming 3 holy power for a spell that has no immediate damaging effect feels bad. It felt bad in cata/mop and it feels bad now, it will always feel bad. The damage and haste is barely noticeable, but it's the top simming talent for the top13 builds currently and it sucks.

Inquisition feels bad in BfA because Inq > Wings is back to back globals of charging up, and then without Divine Purpose you quickly run out of stuff to fill the GCD. The haste is a nice touch, but it doesn't outweigh the drawbacks.

06/07/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Elizavette
Remove Divine Steed, make Long Arm of the Law return as baseline and put Falling Sword From D3/HotS in Ret's talent tree in place of Cavalier.

That or Yrel's HotS dive (weird how Turalyon and Yrel get Holy dive abilities while Ret receives no update)

I would lose my !@#$ (in a good way) if this happened.
Fun is subjective.


It sure is and you're entitled to your opinion, but what you're asking for truly sounds terrible and would solidly rank as one of the worst iterations of Ret ever IMO.

Damn Tier 17 uh ?


T17 was definitely too proc reliant (still very fun), but they fixed it and HFC Ret was a blast. There was no reason to go overboard from that to the Legion version, and from Legion to the BfA version.

06/07/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Zaim
I was touching on this yesterday, but to me personally, I think Divine Purpose going baseline would be the best solution to the down time.


It'd be great if they would do it, but they've always had trouble balancing it which is why I was advocating for BoW. Hopefully with a bit of utility attached to the proc as well, to capture the same decision making process. If they could do DP without neutering it to oblivion, that'd obviously be great too.

06/07/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Auras
I don't think more procs will fix our downtime but I do think ret should have a baseline proc somewhere, thats in line with how it's been forever minus legion. Hell the reason people use the highlord ring is because it's fun. It sims pretty on par with the belt/liadrins, but the extra proc keeps you engaged.


Proc might not fix it totally, but it'll make it a lot better. Ideally we'd get a proc and lower the CDs too. Like I said many times, we need to move closer to how Ret was back in WoD unless they want to do a complete redesign again.

Highlord was the main factor in Ret being bearable in Legion.
06/07/2018 11:11 PMPosted by Tbolt
we need to move closer to how Ret was back in WoD unless they want to do a complete redesign again.

Highlord was the main factor in Ret being bearable in Legion.


Totally agree. WoD ret was super fun in my opinion.
06/07/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I'm not saying baseline Ret should be a proc fiesta, but procs are part of our identity and holy power management isn't enough. Consider Unholy which has at least four different balls to juggle, and on top of that Sudden Doom is a baseline proc.

I agree with Zaim that either Blade of Wrath or Divine Purpose should go baseline


Baseline is baseline, meaning no talent. Having a solid core that is about Holy Power Management leaves room for talents to then create different playstyles that add to the core identity.

Divine Purpose baseline is an absolute no go, it pigeonholes the spec into Proc Casino way too much, and forces players who don't like Proc overload to be stuck playing Proc overload.

BoW is much more tame and is a better choice if you absolutely need a baseline proc.

Let's not consider Unholy for anything. Unholy is atrocious to play. Misaligned cooldown city. I sometimes feel their spec identity is simply being convulted for convultion's sake.

06/07/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I find CS to be a very bland ability, and lowering its CD would make Fires of Justice less appealing to me than it already is.


It's the opposite.

Lowering the baseline CS cooldown makes Fires of Justice a bit more appealing, as the cooldown reduction becomes a greater percentage of the abilities' cooldown, and thus stronger. So long as you don't over fill GCDs, it becomes a very solid choice.

Right now in Legion with CS at 4.5 recharge, even with TFoJ, you don't overfill GCDs. So it wouldn't be an issue in BfA. It would also open up Inq/Crusade builds that are GCD locked.

06/07/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Elizavette
Remove Divine Steed, make Long Arm of the Law return as baseline


No.

Having our mobility tied to having a target and to one of our main rotational abilities is just bad. Divine Steed is better than LAotL for PvE and there is no way I would accept LAotL as a PvE mobility solution baseline.

Stop trying to shoehorn PvP only utility into the PvE side of the spec (aka, baseline). Think of both aspects when making suggestions for baseline.

06/07/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I would lose my !@#$ (in a good way) if this happened.


We're not getting Heroic Leap. It's a Warrior ability.
06/07/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Beraht
We're not getting Heroic Leap. It's a Warrior ability.


Warriors got hammer of wrath ;/ the new execute is literally hammer of wrath
06/07/2018 11:20 PMPosted by Auras
Warriors got hammer of wrath ;/ the new execute is literally hammer of wrath


It's ranged and does Holy Damage ?

Giving Execute a cooldown isn't exactly Hammer of Wrath, far from it. ;)
06/07/2018 11:25 PMPosted by Beraht
It's ranged and does Holy Damage ?

Giving Execute a cooldown isn't exactly Hammer of Wrath, far from it. ;)


Well a short cd execute ability that generates their primary resource when used.

Small distinctions like this is how they justify giving iconic spells from one spec to others. We could get something similar to heroic leap as long as it had some distinguishing factor.
Falling Sword is different enough than Leap due to the delay. It's like woooo...BOOM! Allow everyone to see where it's gonna land so there's some counterplay in PvP.

I'd also argue Long Arm is more versatile in both sides of the game than Steed with its atrocious cooldown. Back when Long Arm was a thing, some Rets caught on to how strong it could be in PvE. And for those situations where it's not, Steed would be a talent in place of Cavalier.
06/07/2018 11:43 PMPosted by Churchmouse
I'd also argue Long Arm is more versatile in both sides of the game than Steed with its atrocious cooldown.


That's a number's thing. Mechanically, an independant mobility boost is much more versatile than one tied to both a rotational ability (DPS loss) and a target (need to actually have one you can judge).

06/07/2018 11:43 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Back when Long Arm was a thing, some Rets caught on to how strong it could be in PvE.


Back when Long Arm was a thing, it was a talent on a row shared with PoJ and Speed of Light and Judgment didn't have a DPS debuff tied to it.

It was not baseline.

06/07/2018 11:43 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Steed would be a talent in place of Cavalier.


How about instead we give you LAotL as a PvP talent and you don't touch my independant mobility boost so I don't need a target to go fast baseline. I get the goal here. You guys want a baseline speed boost on a 12 second cooldown.

Make divine steed have a 12 second cooldown then. Much better solution.
I wish we had a smaller using HP ability, something baseline to use for utility/other effects using HP. I know it's prolly too late to introduce something like this, but I always liked how dark knights in FF online played. They had a small resource using ability that when used buffed up their next ability used with a secondary effect/enhanced effect. It'd be a nice way to fit in seals as well, since a lot of people have been asking for them or something similiar back. Although it might be iffy considering it's a button press without any immediate effect to it, is another problem I've seen echo'd in the gcd debates.

Empower (off the gcd, 3 sec cd) 1HP: Empowers the next ability you use, unleashing it's secondary effect.

Blade of Wrath - Inflicts a DoT upon the target for x damage over 12 seconds.
Blessing of Freedom - Increases movement speed by 25%
Flash of Light - Puts a shield for x% healed on the target.
Justicar's Vengeance - Causes your next TV to heal you for x% of damage done.
Cleanse Toxins - Causes your next cleanse toxins to clear movement impairing effects.

Something else to do with HP so we can get a little bit more depth/decision making going. That'd let us have to think about trading offense for defense/utility as well, instead of how it is currently where except for wog, HP is soley used for damage.
06/08/2018 12:12 AMPosted by Vaerume
I wish we had a smaller using HP ability, something baseline to use for utility/other effects using HP. I know it's prolly too late to introduce something like this, but I always liked how dark knights in FF online played. They had a small resource using ability that when used buffed up their next ability used with a secondary effect/enhanced effect. It'd be a nice way to fit in seals as well, since a lot of people have been asking for them or something similiar back. Although it might be iffy considering it's a button press without any immediate effect to it, is another problem I've seen echo'd in the gcd debates.


That's pretty much Inquisition.

A button press that doesn't have an immediate effect, but buffs your next attacks.
Right, Long Arm used to be a talent and a lot of Rets found that even in PvE it was worth taking over the other options. You may not personally like your speed boost tied to a rotational ability, but in practice it usually works out just fine. And for those times it doesn't, Divine Steed would be a talent.

Drastically lowering the cooldown of Divine Steed isn't a realistic solution because the the drawback of not being an independent speed boost is precisely what allows Long Arm to have such a short cooldown.

The bottom line here is baseline Long Arm and talented Divine Steed would be a buff to our mobility in all aspects of the game over what we have now, and the devs have already shown they're willing to make this sort of change with death knights whose mobility is balanced in a way similar way to ours.
06/08/2018 01:43 AMPosted by Churchmouse
The bottom line here is baseline Long Arm and talented Divine Steed would be a buff to our mobility in all aspects of the game over what we have now, and the devs have already shown they're willing to make this sort of change with death knights whose mobility is balanced in a way similar way to ours.


I would prefer LAotL over Divine Steed, because Steed is a World of Warcraft abomination of a spell... but I have to agree that this would be my least favored option.

LAotL doesn't really work in PvP without Emancipate and doesn't feel great in PvE when you are trying to sneak pass mobs in Mythic+ or trying to hurry to the next boss in a raid. Not to mention DDR moments in raids where you can't judge a mob cause the boss is larping, but you still gotta move.

LAotL is better than Divine Steed, but not the best.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see Holy get Speed of Light (holy charger glyph for outside only), prot can keep the stupid charger, but Ret get Blessing of Vigor, a 3rd blessing to separate itself from holy/prot.

But obviously that's 3 versions of the same spell, just reskined.

Option 1-

Replace Divine Steed with Blessing of Vigor or Speed of Light, which ever fits the theme of paladins better.

Blessing of Vigor - 45 second cooldown
100 mana - 30 yard range
Places a Blessing on the target increasing movement speed by 50% for 5 seconds.

Cavalier replaced with Vigor Aura:

Vigor Aura- 30 second cooldown
2 Charges - 20 yard range
Activate an Aura of Vigor, instantly breaking all party member snares and roots and increasing all party members' run speed by 30% for 5 seconds.

This would give Ret a more "offensive" buff they can choose to cast on a teammate or save for themselves, adding more dynamic game play. Keep in line with having Blessings on paladins, and then open up some team utility in an Aura, also very fitting for paladins.

Option 2-

What if you combined a leap and a charge into a single ability? I'm tired and this is just spit balling an idea, and I don't know if it would be to complicated for WoW but what if it was like this.

Holy gets Speed of Light, with a glyph to change it to Divine Steed outdoors only

Prot and Ret get:

Tirion's Crusade - 25 second cooldown
100 mana - 10 yard charge.
Leap forward 20 yards. Using this ability again within 4 seconds will charge to your target's location.

Cavalier is then replaced with Tirion's Gift:
Tirion's Crusade inspires all those around you, increasing movement speed by 30% for 3 seconds.

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