Why timegate Pathfinder?

General Discussion
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06/19/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Shónuff
06/19/2018 05:08 PMPosted by Nyzer
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Except not really. We didn't see walls around (most of) Draenor or the Broken Isles. And thanks to the various toys available, we could still get to all of those high places, even if it was a major pain in the butt.


It was actually well documented for WoD that the maps were unfinished, and the reason why my statement has been valid for years. I like to make sure people really remember why things are the way they are now.


I know they were unfinished. I think I personally experienced a "fall through the ground into the void" issue at one point with Aviana's wings and an inconvenient mountaintop landing.

But I never encountered or heard of any invisible walls keeping players out of areas (besides Tanaan).

And frankly, the fact that Blizzard failed to finish the overworld of Draenor is a pretty massive failure that shouldn't be defended or justified.

06/19/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Lorandor
As I said much earlier in the thread, ascribing malice to their motivations behind Pathfinder/no flying seems silly for a billion-dollar video game company when the motivation can be easily assigned to profits.


Hard to justify those profit margins when the idea of completely losing flying caused a mass exodus. So I find it incredibly difficult to believe that the sweet spot between "time spent" and "not frustrating players enough to leave" is eight months. In the past, it's taken Blizzard much less time to offer other catchup mechanics for other aspects of the game. We saw AK boosts long before we did flying.

06/19/2018 11:23 PMPosted by Sendrunna
From what I gather, pathfinder was a last ditch effort on there part . Because most likely the higher ups didn't like the sub decline. So they figured on seeing how players would react to pathfinder instead of just adding flight to how it use to be. Imo if the subs drop more , who ever the higher up was that brought it to there attention. Might force there hands again to reinstate it back to the old ways. It would be interesting to see.


That's one of the things I'd been holding out for, but after all this time with no change, I'd guess that the higher ups responsible are just mulishly remaining willfully ignorant and blaming other things like the game's age. It's not gonna change.
T

No dev team in the world knows how to create a CHALLENGING outdoor questing game that has WoW flying. WoW flying makes most content TRIVIAL. That means low ratings, bad reviews, and hundreds of millions of dollars lost.

Blizzard considered eliminating flying (in WoD), then compromised by time-gating flying for several months, so flying happens AFTER all the reviews and ratings are completed and published.


The dev team back in BC and wotlk knew how to handle things and design content with flying in mind. If that team was still around maybe we would have a team that is capable of doing the work that is required. But the current team seems to lack that talent for that. Or they choose to take the easy way out of things.
06/19/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Tchalla
The time-gating of flying has a business purpose: ratings. Each expansion is rated (compared with other MMOs) by lots of magazines and websites. WoW wins awards and high ratings, which convince new players to buy the game. These reviews make a HUGE difference in company income.

The reviewers all want a CHALLENGING outdoor adventure and questing game, and a CHALLENGING dungeon game.


Yeah, that perfectly explains the baseline difficulty decreasing for every expansion besides Cataclysm, which was heavily criticized for being too hard and inaccessible in multiple ways.

No, wait, not "perfectly explains". I must be thinking of another phrase.
... That means the exact opposite of that.

06/19/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Tchalla
No dev team in the world knows how to create a CHALLENGING outdoor questing game that has WoW flying.


Oh, my sides.

Yes, you're right once again. If only overworld objectives were about actually killing enemies and not always just grabbing unguarded items and flying back out for EXP. Truly, it isn't the combat that makes a game difficult, it's whether or not a player can jump into a fight from the air.

After all, everyone knows Breath of the Wild is the easiest Zelda game in history, since the player can scale cliffs like Spiderman and glide over just about everything in the game. It's amazing how easy it is to kill a Gold Lynel with no armor and sticks for weapons just because I have Revali's Gale and can soar into the sky in the middle of any combat encounter. Its high HP and the fact that it would one-shot me with even a sneeze are but trivial concerns compared to my unparalleled aerial advantage.

And of course, the Burning Crusade was a much easier expansion than either Draenor or Legion were. I remember the days when heroics were super easy faceroll instances that lasted fifteen or twenty minutes... nothing like the hour-plus-long runs we have today.
Oh, wait, hold on, I'm being told that that's the opposite of how it was back then and is today. But that's weird... it's almost as if it proves the exact opposite of what you're saying...
I'll be that guy.

I like Pathfinder.

I don't mind the time-gating but the timing should be better. First patch at the absolute latest, before that if they feel like it.

Exploration is fine. Questing is fine. Reputations (revered) are fine. Anything like the Legionfall Offensive - 14 weeks of waiting for a new quest to pop up - is not fine.
06/19/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Nyzer
06/19/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
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Just as Cataclysm was viewed at the time as a bad expansion because it followed WotLK, Legion is being viewed as good because it followed WoD.


Cataclysm was objectively bad in major ways, too. The difficulty of the endgame shot up hard, far beyond what most players were prepared for (and anyone who'd noticed the issue of groups struggling on HoR would have realized that immediately, so there was no real excuse for screwing it up that badly), the writing for the main story was some of the worst we've ever seen, and a lot of content was cut due to the work put in to redesign the entire overworld (which itself was a divisive move, due to a lot of classic content being replaced).


I'm not going to just disagree with you here, because you raise some valid points. But those are also subjective, not objectively.

Yes the difficulty was shot up, but there were people that defend it, just as they defend level scaling today.

I totally agree about the story, but the revamp itself gave us a reason other than stupid micro holidays to be back in the old world. To this day the undead questing experience outside of the Undercity is the best I've experienced in the game. It it just heads and shoulders above any of the other starting areas.
06/20/2018 01:28 AMPosted by Mathrenas
I'll be that guy.

I like Pathfinder.

I don't mind the time-gating but the timing should be better. First patch at the absolute latest, before that if they feel like it.

Exploration is fine. Questing is fine. Reputations (revered) are fine. Anything like the Legionfall Offensive - 14 weeks of waiting for a new quest to pop up - is not fine.


This isn't a bad response at all.

I have done the exploration and the questing for every zone in the game since....well ever since I can remember. Every expansion I take my main through every one of the zones and quest.

I don't have any issue with actually doing the content, it's that when it's purposely dragged along for months and months, that I have an issue.
06/20/2018 01:28 AMPosted by Mathrenas
Anything like the Legionfall Offensive - 14 weeks of waiting for a new quest to pop up - is not fine.


That had nothing to do with Pathfinder though. Part 2 requried exploration of Broken Shore, and Revered with Armies of Legionfall... nothing more.
06/20/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Meritha
06/20/2018 01:28 AMPosted by Mathrenas
Anything like the Legionfall Offensive - 14 weeks of waiting for a new quest to pop up - is not fine.


That had nothing to do with Pathfinder though. Part 2 requried exploration of Broken Shore, and Revered with Armies of Legionfall... nothing more.


They didn't say it did, they said 'anything like the Legionfall Offensive', which means time gating of quests.

If I remember correctly the Broken shore and Armies of Legionfall had weekly questlines as well though.
06/20/2018 12:16 AMPosted by Nyzer
And of course, the Burning Crusade was a much easier expansion than either Draenor or Legion were. I remember the days when heroics were super easy faceroll instances that lasted fifteen or twenty minutes... nothing like the hour-plus-long runs we have today.
Oh, wait, hold on, I'm being told that that's the opposite of how it was back then and is today. But that's weird... it's almost as if it proves the exact opposite of what you're saying...


So dungeons are outdoor content now?
06/20/2018 07:15 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
06/20/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Meritha
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That had nothing to do with Pathfinder though. Part 2 requried exploration of Broken Shore, and Revered with Armies of Legionfall... nothing more.


They didn't say it did, they said 'anything like the Legionfall Offensive', which means time gating of quests.

If I remember correctly the Broken shore and Armies of Legionfall had weekly questlines as well though.


If that's the case, that's a very odd thing to quibble over as gated story progression has been a part of the narrative process for many many years.
06/20/2018 07:24 AMPosted by Meritha
06/20/2018 07:15 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
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They didn't say it did, they said 'anything like the Legionfall Offensive', which means time gating of quests.

If I remember correctly the Broken shore and Armies of Legionfall had weekly questlines as well though.


If that's the case, that's a very odd thing to quibble over as gated story progression has been a part of the narrative process for many many years.


True, but not as part of obtaining flight.

Having a gate of 'you haven't gotten Loremaster' is one thing, where the content is there ready to be consumed. Making you wait week after week for new content, so you can achieve it, is a different item and the one that causes the most issues for players in this thread it seems.

Many people are fine with the principle of Pathfinder, just not the time gating of it.
That's probably my only complaint about it too.

I enjoy unlocking it, mostly since I do all that stuff naturally anyway and the "extra" grinding to unlock it isn't too bad. Just finishing some reps, maybe hitting one or two spots on the map I missed, etc..

I think a solid compromise would be to release it each expansion in the first patch. That's still a bit gated, but by the time most people finish everything involved it'll probably be close to 8.1 anyway, and if you did manage to grind it all out quickly, at least 1 patch is a short wait.

Then introduce some fun quest line in 8.1 for part 2 that isn't time gated and you can do at your own pace. Something interesting and meaningful with some cool cut scenes, etc..

Maybe each expac could also add an expansion themed mount you received upon completion of part 1 for extra motivation to get that done, then part 2 is just the completion quest to unlock flight.

I suggest a boat for this expac. A boat, Blizz.

Same speed in water as a flying mount, and we can fish from it without being dismounted. Mmmm?
06/20/2018 07:37 AMPosted by Rekstorm
Same speed in water as a flying mount, and we can fish from it without being dismounted. Mmmm?


+1 to a boat. I want a boat.
06/20/2018 07:37 AMPosted by Rekstorm
I suggest a boat for this expac. A boat, Blizz.
Oh hell yeah...I'd go for that. I enjoyed the riverboat you get in the Thousand Needles.
biggest reason imo is Ion and friends hate flying and they want to make it as painful as possible.
06/20/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Snug
biggest reason imo is Ion and friends hate flying and they want to make it as painful as possible.


I am sorry, actually no I am not, you are an idiot.

When you hurt people those people cease (or should at least) to give you things, in this case that thing would be money. I am so beyond over this "spite" "they hate us" thing. THAT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE. Stop being stupid.

Whether you like things or hate things, please come up with something that has even the tiniest smidgen of logic.
06/20/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Snug
biggest reason imo is Ion and friends hate flying and they want to make it as painful as possible.
Do you have an actual quote of Ion saying he hates flying and wants to make it as painful as possible?
06/20/2018 05:47 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
Yes the difficulty was shot up, but there were people that defend it, just as they defend level scaling today.


Oh, I was definitely an avid defender of it. I loved the harder dungeons, and somewhat harder overworld - it was all just so much more engaging.

What's indefensible about it, though, is the speed at which it happened. Difficulty should have been ramped up, yes, but gradually. HoR didn't really get any easier the longer Wrath went on, so why would the devs expect even harder dungeons to do so?
Also the way mechanics were handled: for example, if the intent was to CC often, then why was the proper CC so hard to come by? Having to deal with different kinds of CC for Humanoids, Dragonkin, Elementals, and Beasts was like pulling teeth, and there was just so much of it to do.

06/20/2018 05:47 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
I totally agree about the story, but the revamp itself gave us a reason other than stupid micro holidays to be back in the old world. To this day the undead questing experience outside of the Undercity is the best I've experienced in the game. It it just heads and shoulders above any of the other starting areas.


Yeah, I personally didn't mind the changes. I just know some people did, and it was arguably overdone in some areas.

My biggest issue with the changes is, aside from making the world flight friendly, the effort doesn't seem to have been worth it. It made leveling easier and more streamlined and all, but I dunno, it just feels like a couple regions with phasing depending on level range would have worked better. Plotwise, set it up as specifically a harsh training regimen for players to get them ready to refill the ranks of the factions after all the losses against the Lich King. Let them go out and level in the world if they want, but give them a nice, efficient, single zone that they can mostly grind out to get to 80. If you really want to break it up, set up some portals to/from various regions and occasionally send them out to clear a region.

06/20/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Meritha
06/20/2018 12:16 AMPosted by Nyzer
And of course, the Burning Crusade was a much easier expansion than either Draenor or Legion were. I remember the days when heroics were super easy faceroll instances that lasted fifteen or twenty minutes... nothing like the hour-plus-long runs we have today.
Oh, wait, hold on, I'm being told that that's the opposite of how it was back then and is today. But that's weird... it's almost as if it proves the exact opposite of what you're saying...


So dungeons are outdoor content now?


I failed to add more into what I quoted where the previous poster went on about how there should be challenging outdoor and dungeon content. I didn't feel the need to get into detail about how TBC's outdoor content was harder, mostly because aside from STOMPED BY THE FEL REAVER there isn't much to really say: mobs were relatively stronger compared to the player than they are now. It's kind of a boring statement.

Also, it was 1 AM and I was more ready to head to bed than to get into too much detail. :P

06/20/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Meritha
06/20/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Snug
biggest reason imo is Ion and friends hate flying and they want to make it as painful as possible.


I am sorry, actually no I am not, you are an idiot.

When you hurt people those people cease (or should at least) to give you things, in this case that thing would be money. I am so beyond over this "spite" "they hate us" thing. THAT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE. Stop being stupid.

Whether you like things or hate things, please come up with something that has even the tiniest smidgen of logic.


The problem with trying to be fair and rational about whatever the devs' mentality is towards flying is that... well, they very explicitly haven't been.

We've never really had a good answer as to why they promised the moon when it came to a new way to do outdoor content in Draenor, thus flying would need to be gated, but they cut flying and failed to provide new outdoor content. All their justifications for the decision have rung hollow, since they've never done anything more ambitious than Suramar City, which was one isolated area that could have just had an anti-flight spell lingering from the barrier.

Most damningly, there was the Polygon interview, where they rated the flight loss as a success, and said that they liked the game better without it. Despite the fact that feedback for the loss of flight and especially the design of Draenor's overworld was overwhelmingly negative - as the immediate mass exodus proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

To get to that point, they would have had to willfully ignore feedback. For months on end. Which makes absolutely no sense... unless someone high up is hellbent on pushing their own agenda over what the majority of players actually want.

It's the only conclusion that fits the facts. The fact that "no flying" caused more harm than good is an undeniable one, thanks to the backlash following the Polygon interview. It's also well known that a good part of the reason the game did as well as it did after the failures of Draenor was due to the monetization changes, like the WoW Token and everything that followed. We know for a fact that subscription numbers took a massive hit, because there's no other reason for Blizzard to suddenly stop reporting them. You don't hide things unless you have a reason to.

Of course it's completely illogical, but sometimes, people are just illogical. That's an unfortunate truth of our reality.

If you think the flight bans are being done strictly to improve profits, can you come forward with any sort of supporting evidence to back that up? Because everything I've ever seen only supports the exact opposite. The only statement I've seen that holds any water is "they're trying to stretch out the content", which is a slight possibility, but doesn't really match up with the way Blizzard was letting players shortcut things like Artifact Knowledge months before they were allowed to fly. I'd accept it as part of the justification, sure, but it's certainly not the whole story.

06/20/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Stonebeard
06/20/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Snug
biggest reason imo is Ion and friends hate flying and they want to make it as painful as possible.
Do you have an actual quote of Ion saying he hates flying and wants to make it as painful as possible?


Not that specifically, no. The quote from the Polygon interview is pretty telling, though:

Originally, Blizzard took out flying in Warlords of Draenor as an experiment, and Hazzikostas says he would have bet "slightly better than even money at the time" that they were going to bring it back eventually. But as they played the expansion and watched others play it, they discovered that they liked the game better without flying.

"The world feels larger, feels more dangerous," he says. "There's more room for exploration, for secrets, for discovery and overall immersion in the world. At this point, we feel that outdoor gameplay in World of Warcraft is ultimately better without flying. We're not going to be reintroducing the ability to fly in Draenor, and that's kind of where we're at going forward."


As well, Ghostcrawler once expressed the sentiment that if they faced the original choice to add flying again, he personally wouldn't have.

@TrygveSeim
15 Dec 2012
@Ghostcrawler Looking back to pre-BC, would you make the decision to add flying mounts again if you had the choice?

@Ghostcrawler
Replying to @TrygveSeim
.@TrygveSeim Personally, no, but they are pretty cool. Convenience is fun, but I don't like that they make the world so safe.


Nothing explicitly states that they wanted to make the Pathfinder wait a giant pain in the butt (obviously, because it would be the height of folly to openly admit it), but we know for a fact they weren't happy with flying.
06/20/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Meritha
06/20/2018 01:28 AMPosted by Mathrenas
Anything like the Legionfall Offensive - 14 weeks of waiting for a new quest to pop up - is not fine.


That had nothing to do with Pathfinder though. Part 2 requried exploration of Broken Shore, and Revered with Armies of Legionfall... nothing more.


It was definitely not get revered with Armies of the Legionfall.

I got exalted in the first 3 days before I flocked to WoWhead to find out that you had to complete the campaign (a time gated questline) in order to unlock it. Because of this, I ended up quitting for 2 months because of the massive burn out I suffered and returned once the Legionfall campaign was fully unlocked.

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