Dark Ascension

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Looking at the latest updates to Beta, it's really nice to see the new talent! However, will this talent have any interaction with Void Eruption?

With Void Eruption being a large chunk of damage, not having that could cause an issue.

Also, is it possible at all for the insanity to be upped? Starting at 30 insanity means you might start the voidform and then leave it very quickly if you are unable to get that extra kick early.
Dark Ascension is a new talent we're trying for Shadow. The version currently on beta is an unfinished, in-progress version. The implemented version we have internally is currently:

Dark Ascension - 1 min cooldown, Generates 50 Insanity, 40 yd range
Immediately activates Voidform, then releases an explosive blast of pure void energy, causing Void Eruption damage to all enemies within 10 yds of your target. Cannot be used while in Voidform.

Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.
What about making voidform something that actually feels like a benefit to shadow? As it stands the talents that aim to extend void forms duration accomplish almost nothing due to the ramp of the insanity drain. On top of that .5% haste per stack and no extra damage make it incredibly unsatisfying.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Dark Ascension is a new talent we're trying for Shadow. The version currently on beta is an unfinished, in-progress version. The implemented version we have internally is currently:

Dark Ascension - 1 min cooldown, Generates 50 Insanity, 40 yd range
Immediately activates Voidform, then releases an explosive blast of pure void energy, causing Void Eruption damage to all enemies within 10 yds of your target. Cannot be used while in Voidform.

Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.


This is cool, any eta on when/if we are getting an update on shadow? seems like even with this talent the spec feels very incomplete
I would be happy if entering Void Form didn't cause me to lose my Shadow Form armor bonus in PvP. :(
Are there going to be more changes to the other talents that feel unimpactful? Are they seen as more of a tuning issue?

Honestly, Lingering Insanity still seems really bad considering we'll be getting ~13% haste from VF uptime. Having an average of 6.5% haste for 26 seconds feels negligible.

EDIT: Until Dark Ascension actually does Void Eruption damage, we can't properly test it and give it feedback. Using it as an instant Void Form button right now isn't useful since the inherent value of Void Form is too low. It's essentially just delaying our next Void Eruption.
Edit: didn't see it was 1m CD so adjusting the issue.

This Talent feels so close to LoTV that i feel like no matter how you balance it, the one that gives you the most Void Forms will always be taken regardless and Surrender to Madness is just a dead Talent all around. Its somewhat useful in Legion now on farm fights but that's only because the Artifact Weapon Amplifies Void Form.

To ad on to this, regardless of how you tune it, there will be moments where you have to sit on it which feels really bad.

A couple examples are:

You are already in Void Form so you cannot use it
You are close to entering Void Form and would be a waste to use it

The earlier instance would mean at most you are losing out at about 20-25 seconds and losing out that much time on a 1m CD feels bad

The later is actually much worse because you could lost potentially most of the CD. Using the CD at say 60-70% insanity would feel really bad for example.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.


Uh.. What?

Right now on beta you can get 60 insanity within 3 globals: Dark Void, Shadow Crash, and Mind Blast. Pop Void Eruption and you're in.

Losing Legacy of the void, All manual void eruptions with this talent takes significantly longer. Hitting 90 insanity takes at least 3-4 casts more, and you spend an extra second casting void eruption.

I'm not seeing much benefit to this talent at all. You get in your first void form literally 3-4 seconds faster, but every other voidform is slower by 4-5 globals. Theres also insanity generation concerns. If you open up on a fight with it, you may be fine, but you have to spec dark void and shadow crash for the insanity gain, else you will never get anywhere near max insanity, IE your void forms from using dark ascension are going to be even shorter. Theres also concerns where if you do drop void form early for any reason, your synced rotation with using dark ascension just falls apart. Also as you get longer shadow forms, this ability is going to stay off Cooldown longer, losing value.

Nothing about shadow makes sense right now. Insanity generation and drain rate have been adjusted in BfA so you can't reach high stacks, while at the same time losing most of the ramp, so the reason for hitting your max stack just isn't there. Auspicious Spirits, Void Torrent, Lingering Insanity are all dead talents in the current iteration. Trait investment to extend void form a few seconds has little impact on overall damage. Why is SW:D a trait again? Why not keep the Reaper of Souls talent instead?

Its a mangled mess of a spec right now.

Also, what does getting into Void form faster even get you now? You gain maybe 1% haste over a fight and 1-2 more void bolt casts per void form. There's just not enough benefit to being in void form now.
Commenting on the talent itself, one issue I could see happening often is it coming off cd right as we are about to enter vf and then sitting on it for up to 25-35% of the cd since its useless when we were going to enter void form anyways and when we are in void form. Id really like to see it on a charge system with 2 charges as it would give a lot more flexibility in its use.

Also Im not quite sure what problem this talent is trying to address. Currently with LoTV you pop shadow crash and dark void and you are almost to void form. It would be nice if I drop out of void form on an aoe pack that is getting close to death I could pop back in really quick but at least in the content Ive tested, that doesnt help very much. So it doesnt feel very useful in an aoe situation.

In single target I could see it being a little better but im really concerned about wasted CD due to fight timings/already in void form.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.

I get what you want to do here, but realistically most people are going to view this talent as giving them an on demand eruption, not a voidform, when you compare it to the other 100 talents.

If you feel its healthy for the spec to have it's burst AoE tied to entering voidform, then this talent will probably see a good amount of use.
so... you're going to address the big shadow feedback post... when?
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.
The talent is too much dependent on Voidform cycles.

You have a incredible small window where you can use the talent, that is between 0-90 Insanity. The closer you are to 90 (or 60 as it's competing with LotV) Insanity, the less value the talent has.

Combine the cycling Voidform nature with the 1 minute cooldown, and chances are, you'll end up much closer to 60 Insanity (when LotV activates) whenver DA comes of the cooldown.

There is a reason why Void Torrent is a 45 sec cooldown. You essentially want these talents for every second Voidform, but not every Voidform, and definately not every third Voidform.

And lastly, as written on several pages in the shadow thread, having a large junk of AoE damage tied to the Voidform opener is not fun.
Perhaps some feedback as to what this new talent is supposed to accomplish in regards to the issues presented in the feedback thread is in order? The issue is not getting to voidform but making voidform and the talents feel impactful.
Can we just like get a playstyle that doesnt revolve around a rage bar? Maybe something with orbs, maybe even call them shadowy orbs.
I feel like it'll be a great talent when you're behind in gear and can't get high stacks of voidform yet. Other than that, not sure.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Dark Ascension is a new talent we're trying for Shadow. The version currently on beta is an unfinished, in-progress version. The implemented version we have internally is currently:

Dark Ascension - 1 min cooldown, Generates 50 Insanity, 40 yd range
Immediately activates Voidform, then releases an explosive blast of pure void energy, causing Void Eruption damage to all enemies within 10 yds of your target. Cannot be used while in Voidform.

Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.


Thank you for the update nonetheless =) Looking forward to testing it out!
So far the highest amount of Voidform stacks I've gotten from 0 Insanity is 22 with this rotation:

Dark Ascension, Void Bolt, Dark Void, Shadow Crash, Void Bolt, Bender, SW:V, Void Bolt

Higher stacks could probably be reached, but it seems the smarter thing to do would be use Dark Ascension (if it actually erupted) then wait 4 seconds to cast Vampiric Touch and have it finish right when you come out of VF, then use your big generators to Erupt again.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Dark Ascension is a new talent we're trying for Shadow. The version currently on beta is an unfinished, in-progress version. The implemented version we have internally is currently:

Dark Ascension - 1 min cooldown, Generates 50 Insanity, 40 yd range
Immediately activates Voidform, then releases an explosive blast of pure void energy, causing Void Eruption damage to all enemies within 10 yds of your target. Cannot be used while in Voidform.

Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.


I'm not sure it compares to Legacy of the Void still, but I can definitely see it being the superior pick in AoE situations. But even then, I'm not sure: You get an additional on demand void eruption, but only once every minute, and in exchange you have to hit 90 insanity every time you want to enter voidform and you get a longer cast time on void eruption. Mind you, a proper numbers pass will fix that.

What I'm curious about is how you guys move void torrent to the previous tier. I think that might be the best spot for it actually.
05/31/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Seph
Dark Ascension is a new talent we're trying for Shadow. The version currently on beta is an unfinished, in-progress version. The implemented version we have internally is currently:

Dark Ascension - 1 min cooldown, Generates 50 Insanity, 40 yd range
Immediately activates Voidform, then releases an explosive blast of pure void energy, causing Void Eruption damage to all enemies within 10 yds of your target. Cannot be used while in Voidform.

Tuning is pending playtesting/feedback, but the goal is to give Shadow a more controlled way of entering Voidform.


Seph please respond to Frost DKs. Thanks.
05/31/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Whisperings
Perhaps some feedback as to what this new talent is supposed to accomplish in regards to the issues presented in the feedback thread is in order? The issue is not getting to voidform but making voidform and the talents feel impactful.


I agree, I've been following in the mega shadow feedback thread for a long time now and I don't really recall slight delays to VE and 'entering voidform' being a big core issue we needed solved. And this talent seems to play onto the Void Eruption damage as we enter void form being pushed even more via this talent yet VE dmg tied to voidform entry is essentially anti-void form in concept.

Trying my best to see how this talent should play out best is a mythic+ environment; however, I'm lacking vision how this is good for raid style shadow which I would hope has a bigger emphasis on a decent VF rather than having us AFK a few seconds to VE again; which is really really backwards and feels super bad to WANT to drop VF in a typical raid encounter.

To combat this anti-void form playstyle in raid encounters I feel some of the pro-void form talents may need some compensation to make pushing VF in raid encounter still be our goal to avoid these dungeon style talents from dominating the spec in BFA. (and feel mega bad in the process)

p.s. thanks for the changes to LI; I hope to see it make a comeback

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