Dark Ascension

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/05/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Ningjinq
Is the tuning such that you actually want to drop out of it ASAP or is that what it just feels like plays best?

Tuning, but the current tuning reflects the design intention that most of our AoE burst should come from VE. In order to make us not want to drop VF to VE again it'd have to be tuned way down to the point that people would be complaining about lack of AoE burst again. At the same time that would make DA a mostly irrelevant talent.

As many have pointed out since the first Legion buff to VE, tying damage to VE is not healthy. DA is a "solution" to a symptom, not to the cause.
06/05/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Ningjinq
Is the tuning such that you actually want to drop out of it ASAP or is that what it just feels like plays best?


For now it feels like it's best to drop out at ~13-15 stacks - align the dropping out with SW:V getting second charge off CD and SC/DV being close to off CD so that you can just get good insanity after you drop out and erupt again.

But that's definitely not the intended playstyle (Seph mentioned that in the priest discord when he came in for a chat) so I expect the tuning to change that.
The two goals of Shadow Priest, Void Erupt, and Voidform are too diametrically opposed. At this point, my personal belief is that Voidform needs to be retuned into a sort of Dark Inquisition that Priests work to keep up at all times. They should be trying to Void Eruption as much as possible, while maintaining Voidform as well.

How much of a game breaker would it be Seph if Voidform lasted say 20 seconds, cost 60 Insanity, and just was a flat buff we spend excess insanity on? Blizzard could fold Shadow Crash and Dark Void into a single Talent and then have the Priest focused on Crash, Void Erupt and Mind Sear.

With Legacy of the Void a baseline ability now, you could then also bring back the Clarity of Power Talent for Priests as Legacy of the Void would be baked in which a lot of Priests liked from WoD also.

PS: Mind Sear and Shadow Word: Void need a visual overhaul and the black clouds when casting need to be re-centered on players hands. Right now they hover at the fingertips.

(Shadow Word: Void needs to use Mind Blast's projectile)

Other than that.. please, PLEASE don't make us bench our Priests for BFA.

We really need help.
06/05/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Gussof
How much of a game breaker would it be Seph if Voidform lasted say 20 seconds, cost 60 Insanity, and just was a flat buff we spend excess insanity on?


While something like this would help address concerns with SPriest in M+ and WQing, it should really be a talent (maybe make Dark Ascension do this?). The minigame of keeping up Voidform for as long as you can on a raid boss is compelling gameplay and really draws people to playing SPriest.
06/05/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Comfybundles
The minigame of keeping up Voidform for as long as you can on a raid boss is compelling gameplay and really draws people to playing SPriest.

That minigame is dead and gone at this point. It's not coming back, at least in 8.0, judging by the direction their other changes have gone.
06/05/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Pyri
06/05/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Comfybundles
The minigame of keeping up Voidform for as long as you can on a raid boss is compelling gameplay and really draws people to playing SPriest.

That minigame is dead and gone at this point. It's not coming back, at least in 8.0, judging by the direction their other changes have gone.

If that's actually their intent (which I really hope it isn't), then they should just drop the concept of Voidform altogether. A slow, wet noodle VF is not fun. Keeping it in its current state is not making anyone happy.
I mean, I could be wrong. I don't have any inside knowledge here. It just seems like they've made a conscious effort to make VF unrewarding and to compensate in other places. The fact that they're doubling down on AoE-focused talents tells me that they're probably not likely to reverse course at this point in the development cycle and just put everything back the way it was.
Seph thank you for the feedback but could you please, please, please tell us what your direction is? Dark Ascension is not helping how inconsequential voidform is, the very basis of the spec right now.
06/05/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Comfybundles


While something like this would help address concerns with SPriest in M+ and WQing, it should really be a talent (maybe make Dark Ascension do this?). The minigame of keeping up Voidform for as long as you can on a raid boss is compelling gameplay and really draws people to playing SPriest.


I wouldn’t say draws people to playing a Spriest. My Spriest has been my main since vanilla and all legions playstyle did was cause me to unsubscribe for the majority of the expansion.

The only way the Legion playstyle should remain is if we go back to playstyle defining L100 Talents like in WoD
06/05/2018 06:49 PMPosted by Kalistez
06/05/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Comfybundles


While something like this would help address concerns with SPriest in M+ and WQing, it should really be a talent (maybe make Dark Ascension do this?). The minigame of keeping up Voidform for as long as you can on a raid boss is compelling gameplay and really draws people to playing SPriest.


I wouldn’t say draws people to playing a Spriest. My Spriest has been my main since vanilla and all legions playstyle did was cause me to unsubscribe for the majority of the expansion.

The only way the Legion playstyle should remain is if we go back to playstyle defining L100 Talents like in WoD


Thank you for reading my mind.

I too, fully enjoyed the Wotlk plan that, at max level, allowed you to change your playstyle to better suit the raid environment. And I must say, I feel as though it was handled much better back then.

I will fully admit that I'm not normally big on change, and the number of times I've had to relearn my class over the years has been annoying. But this seems like a sensible (and already proven) solution.

I must, in fairness and honesty to myself and the community, confess that I believe in my heart of hearts that the wild disparity in SPriest tool kits from expansion to expansion comes from a lack of dedicated developers who actually play the spec. And it *feels* to me as though, for legion, we were handed a fist full of abilities that didn't make the cut in other classes with a sprinkling of wildly imaginative ideas to give us a unique flavor that somehow never got thought through completely.

Legion's playstyle caused me to not want to play enough to get to the raids.

I've tried to remain hopeful for BfA, but I still see so many glaring problems that have been pointed out ad nausium in the ShadowPriest Threads. And I am baffled by the thought process of so many of my fellow SPriests that beg for a continuation of the long Legion ramp up design. It just isn't logical.

Thinking deeper on this issue, Maybe what so many of you are valuing is the manic button pressing. I know that most classes play with a button press every second or so. I can understand the desire to feel like you're moving faster, doing more, than the next guy. To that end I suggest that the Devs rework shadow with a base haste buff, but give us functional abilities. Take the smooth flow of a complete, synergized toolkit that certain other classes enjoy, but make it slightly weaker and at a much faster pace. It even fits both the desire of the players and the theme of the class.
-*-The truly manic spend so much more energy bouncing around, only to end up exactly where everyone else who walked in a straight line did, and at about the same time.-*-

As a final note: Thank you Seph for coming to speak to us. Many of us, myself included, have felt that we were being pointedly ignored for quite some time now. I would, however, like to politely point out that posting to a newly started thread felt, to me anyway, like a bit of an attempt to dodge the throng. This is because there was (and still is) an already well established discussion in a much longer, yet still very active thread. I will concede, of course, that you were addressing Dark Ascenscion specifically, and that the other thread is more of an overall discussion. As such, you may have felt that this was the better venue. Regardless, I strongly urge you to make these communications as frequently as possible to help focus such a passionate group of individuals on positive community strategies instead of letting rabid idealogs tear each other and, vicariously, you to shreds.
06/05/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Wyrna
I've tried to remain hopeful for BfA, but I still see so many glaring problems that have been pointed out ad nausium in the ShadowPriest Threads. And I am baffled by the thought process of so many of my fellow SPriests that beg for a continuation of the long Legion ramp up design. It just isn't logical.

Because we did the content where it was actually amazingly fun and where the ramp up doesn't matter. If things are dying so quickly that you can't ramp up it means you're doing easy content. The only times that I ever care about ramp up are when I'm doing a key below like 15 with other people that also way outgear it. Even then we're perfectly capable of dealing strong damage by chaining pulls. And like I've said previously, there are solutions to ramping damage that don't involve a complete rework of the spec.

Thinking deeper on this issue, Maybe what so many of you are valuing is the manic button pressing. I know that most classes play with a button press every second or so. I can understand the desire to feel like you're moving faster, doing more, than the next guy. To that end I suggest that the Devs rework shadow with a base haste buff, but give us functional abilities. Take the smooth flow of a complete, synergized toolkit that certain other classes enjoy, but make it slightly weaker and at a much faster pace. It even fits both the desire of the players and the theme of the class.

A baseline rotation with just a lot of haste is not what's interesting. It's that feeling of squeezing ever second out of a VF and knowing that every second means you're doing more and more damage. I can push BFA VF, but it doesn't feel rewarding to do so. Relegating VF from a rotational "stance" to a cooldown means that while you're waiting for the CD to come back up it's just boring.
06/05/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Pyri
That minigame is dead and gone at this point. It's not coming back, at least in 8.0, judging by the direction their other changes have gone.


That's the honest truth. I switched my Priest out for my Paladin after 7.0 because it simply was not fun to do the minigame. If people want my personal feelings, it felt like someone deleted my character and created a new one for me with a totally new playstyle.

The Legion Shadow Priest Class Fantasy wasn't the issue. The playstyle was, especially for a lot of people who have mained Priest for years. It hurts my fingers and was a serious downgrade from Cata, MoP and WoD's Shadow. That is why I firmly believe that Voidform should function like Alleria's. It should be a move we use, it's active a fixed amount of time and we try to refresh it like Inquisition is.

Dark Arch-Angel originally achieved this for Priests and it was incredible. I also think Void Bolt needs it's original functionality restored where it deals with refreshing DoTs. We need a more reliable means to keep them up now that Artifacts are going away.
I’m not sure I agree having an arms warrior window is the best thing for shadow. You may not like the void form mechanic, it’s not for everyone, but it was unique and that made shadow special instead of having a builder spender or combo point thing with orbs. But as for dark ascension, any more feedback on how this talent feels now? I haven’t been on the beta lately
Seph has given such good and insightful feedback on affliction, i am surprised he is missing the mark so much with Shadow.
06/06/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Izuni
Seph has given such good and insightful feedback on affliction, i am surprised he is missing the mark so much with Shadow.


Hang tight a second, we don't know if he's even the one who's designing it. Let's not jump to conclusions and attack a Developer who wants to communicate. He want's feedback so lets work with him and try to make things the best they can be.

Regarding Dark Ascendance Seph, here were my findings.

It's a good idea on paper, but I see a couple problems in the game-world with it. The biggest one is that it give you Voidform but it only gives 30 insanity. This means that even if you activate it to prolong Voidform, there's not much of a benefit.

By this I mean, yes it prolongs Voidform but it gives 30 insanity which any poster here will tell you is burnt through way too fast (see my comments earlier in the thread about Insanity decaying speed). That means your trading a talent for a extra 3 or so stacks of Insanity. Or at least you would be if Dark Ascension did not wipe stacks and reset Insanity Decay speed.

There's a problem with that as well, in that a player can usually it 12-20 seconds re-accrue enough insanity with Dark Legacy to return to Voidform. This means that your character is basically taking a talent that every 1.5 Minutes allows for a instant Voidform. Legacy of the Void just beats it out in terms of fun and reliability I found.

Now, where does that leave Dark Ascension? I think it could go a couple of ways.

1.) Why not convert it into a damage CD? Shadow Priest sprouts Dark Naaru Wings and for the next X seconds, they deal 15% or so more damage, and their DoTs gain 30% more haste? Put it at a 3 minute CD or something.

2.) If keeping it's core functionality, have it fully refill the insanity bar, cause a fresh Void Eruption (the lack of damage from Void Erupt was notable while testing), and reset the Insanity Decay, while keeping player stacks of Voidform? That would make it a potent ability also.

Right now it's a good idea and I appreciate your work with us on it, but if I'm to level with you, it feels like it's missing something. Sorry. ._.

---End Feedback---

------------------------------------------------

Personal Opinion:

If you want a little more of my logic on why I dislike the slowly draining Insanity mechanic, it stems from the fact that it just does not feel anything like what we had in the game before Legion.

We're in it for what seems to be a very fixed time, but unlike Legion I don't feel like there's as much control or chance for control as their was when my character had Xal'atath. The Voidform feels very rigid and controlled.

This is one reason I suggest we fold Voidform's visuals into our Shadowform, and just work on improving Shadowform itself by giving it insanity spenders. Void Bolt, Void Eruption, Devouring Plague (I miss it so much), and Dark Archangel would all be notable abilities that could cost insanity.

Dark Void could be a talent that augments Void Eruption to spread Shadow Word: Pain / Vampiric Touch ala Twin's Painful Touch, and I'm sure the other abilities could be tuned in a way it was fun and enjoyable. It would still make for a fast paced play style, but it would also incentivize players to use Insanity as fast as they got it, except when pooling it to maintain Voidform etc.

It could tread a little close to Affliction Lock if hypothetically a player used excess Insanity to say cast multiple Devouring Plagues at a enemy, but when you think about it, both classes rely on DoTs in a similar way and should function to a degree in a similar way.

This is why I've felt Priests needed a fourth Tree (or Disciplines needs to become a direct damage holy dps tree if Absorb/Heal/Damage isn't working) for years.

You see, Shadow has a excessive amount of reliance on it because it's our only option. This means everyone who wants to deal damage is stuck with it. This makes changes to the spec that much more acutely felt.

Getting back to my core point however, if Voidform is for the most part static and on rails already with when it begins and ends, then it's likely better to scrap it, give Shadowform it's visuals, and just create something with a fixed time that Priests work to maintain up time on, much like say the Retribution Paladin would work to maintain Inquisition.

It just doesn't convey to me the player much of anything when I Void Bolt in Voidform and it moves a tiny bit for a second then resumes rapidly decaying.

Thank you for reading all of that and best of luck Seph. I have no doubt you'll do the best you can. We're all rooting for you and hope to hear back from you soon!
06/05/2018 11:32 PMPosted by Gussof
06/05/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Pyri
That minigame is dead and gone at this point. It's not coming back, at least in 8.0, judging by the direction their other changes have gone.


That's the honest truth. I switched my Priest out for my Paladin after 7.0 because it simply was not fun to do the minigame. If people want my personal feelings, it felt like someone deleted my character and created a new one for me with a totally new playstyle.

The Legion Shadow Priest Class Fantasy wasn't the issue. The playstyle was, especially for a lot of people who have mained Priest for years. It hurts my fingers and was a serious downgrade from Cata, MoP and WoD's Shadow. That is why I firmly believe that Voidform should function like Alleria's. It should be a move we use, it's active a fixed amount of time and we try to refresh it like Inquisition is.

Dark Arch-Angel originally achieved this for Priests and it was incredible. I also think Void Bolt needs it's original functionality restored where it deals with refreshing DoTs. We need a more reliable means to keep them up now that Artifacts are going away.

Perhaps SPriest's base gameplay should be like Inquisition and VB/VEr/Crash acting as spenders. Then take S2M and turn it into a passive that mimics/refines the VF stacking gameplay from Legion. Everybody wins?
06/06/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Gussof
Hang tight a second, we don't know if he's even the one who's designing it. Let's not jump to conclusions and attack a Developer who wants to communicate. He want's feedback so lets work with him and try to make things the best they can be.


Not really attacking him i am responding directly to his own response and how it misses the mark with what is actually wrong with Shadow. There's a difference between attacking someone and disagreeing with them.
maybe attack was the wrong word to use, i didn't really take it as an attack.

but unless you know something specific that i don't about Seph's role on the team, maybe he's just passing the information along for our benefit, but not DIRECTLY involved with the direction Shadow seems to be headed in, which i admit, is kind of disappointing and confusing.
Sephuz actually did visit the How2Priest discord and talked for a bit a couple months ago. It looks like he has at least though a bit about DA since then.

Sephuz on 4/10
"A question with a 2min CD that puts you into Voidform (and probably gives you a bunch of Insanity) is: Is doing back to back Voidforms really what we want? I think there is a huge gain with this design that you get a controlled way to enter Voidform. But overall, something feels off about the design."

I'm a bit curious, the version of DA going on the beta looks very similar to this. Did the design idea change so that it feels right now? Or was the original idea of the talent significantly different enough from what will be going on the beta that Seph believes it feels right now?

I personally still don't like the talent, but I think it would really help to hear a bit more about the thought process is behind it.
Wouldn't just making Void Bolt hit every target with dots/around targets with dots solve the majority of the issues with AoE?

Right now you want to drop voidform ASAP to use your big AoE spender, but if void bolt always hit everything then staying in void form wouldn't feel punishing for AoE.

It worked that way in legion beta at one point, and a TON of mobs in game that use void bolt use an AoE version, so it'd fit mechanically/thematically.

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