End of Legion: Mythic Raiding Feedback

General Discussion
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I had to stop raiding due to work related issues once we got to around 15% on Argus, but our guild cleared all content outside of Mythic Kil'jaeden.

EN was a fun entry raid, with an extremely easy, underwhelming last boss.
ToV was actually surprisingly fun as it had an insane difficulty curve compared to EN. Our first Guarm kill really felt like the first big acheivment in raiding after Cenarius.

Nighthold was fantastic. Mythic Gul'dan was easily one of my favorite bosses to date. I loved the DPS/healing checks, even if the first three bosses were a joke. Once you hit Aluriel/Augur/Krosus pre nerf, you really had to execute at a very high level to succeed. This felt awesome, but was ultimately undermined by the fact your character never got much more powerful after your first kill. Our kill speed variance at the start of the tier, and later in the tier was not as significant as previous expansions. If Blizzard takes any single instance in Legion to model raiding around, it should be this one.

Tomb was not great. I didn't really enjoy any encounters here outside of Maiden. The fights were just boring, and the instance design was terrible. Some of the runs back were just... insane.

Antorus was fun, although reclearing the few bosses got insanely boring, and Eonar was just... awful. Not challenging, monotonous as all hell, and took forever. Aggramar on Mythic was a really challenging fun encounter. Argus was a complete letdown. Insanely boring, with a marginally fun last phase.

Titanforging as a system just sucks. I understand the desire to make reclearing desirable, but if you are using a titanforged item from last tier, the system is flawed. This goes hand in hand with the rewards that are given from raiding. They aren't exciting, they aren't fun. It's just you showing up and crossing your fingers you get the same exact item, but 5ilevel higher. This made receiving loot from Mythic raids unexciting, especially if you geared up in M+.

Legendaries are in the same vein. I am your typical raid-logger. I want to show up, kill bosses, and do nothing else. I understand the draw to this expansion was endless world content, but I simply did not want to do anything but raid. This left me at a significant disadvantage as I never received my luffas or behemoth headdress. Entirely self inflicted, but nonetheless a silly system. For the first tier parsing was virtually impossible if you got prydaz/run speed boots for your first couple legendaries. A system like this should not make or break your damage when trying to progress through raids.
Loot:
I want to lead this off by saying that as a Mythic raid leader, I am very much looking forward to Forced Personal Loot. We currently MasterLoot because it's ~*~*Optimal*~*~; since the option exists, we'd be foolish not to use it. If all loot is on a more level (albeit beholden to RNG) playing field, then I'm looking forward to never having to deal with loot ever again and letting the game (and individuals) sort it out (with the option as the raid leader to coordinate distribution in the few instances where individuals can't or won't bother with it).

While this seems counter-intuitive to my point below, bonus rolls do help offset the randomness of Personal Loot to some degree. Perhaps Personal Loot would be more palatable to others, if there was an enhancement to the bonus roll system to be more generous in Mythic - a nod to the fact that you can only kill/coin a Mythic boss once per week.

There was too much throughout the expansion that relied on randomness:
• The Netherlight Crucible is a big example of this.
• Early- to mid-expansion Legendary system is probably the most egregious example: trying to raid Nighthold (!!!!!!) without Best in Slot legendaries was PAINFUL.
• Some bosses felt a bit too random as well (Imonar bridge, Sass'zine beams REQUIRED a Weak Aura to make the decision fast enough)
• Not being able to bonus roll the Argus trinket - I got my tank trinket early, but it turned 1000 the week that I got the DPS trinket

Switching Costs were too high:
Alts: Trying to gear an alt was too much this expansion. I couldn't keep up. Part of this is a problem with my own broken brain, where I would look at my main and say "There is more I should do here" and not want to play the alt. However, with Legendaries and AP and all that, it was far too much for me to keep the alt within being able to do the same level of content that my main could. I eventually just dropped the alt altogether because it was a chore. I get that you probably don't want people having 6 different alts to choose from to class-stack on a boss-by-boss basis, but this swung too far the other way.

Main Spec: I played Prot/Fury up through early Tomb of Sargeras, because that's where the gear synergies were. When Tomb of Sargeras came along, Arms ran away DPS-wise, so much so that when my guild fell apart, I had a very hard time getting anyone to look at me because 1). Guilds don't generally recruit tanks off the street and 2). Guilds lost interest in me when I said I wasn't Arms. It's not that I was unwilling to do so; I simply didn't have the Relics, Legendaries, or AP to play Arms at a Mythic level.

Recruitment:
Back in Warlords, I actually swore off raid-leading Mythic ever again until I either A). Retired or B). Won the lottery, because I absolutely cannot devote the time required to keep up with the recruitment treadmill. It truly never ends, and if you're not a top-end guild that's drawing fistfuls of recruitment posts a week, you have to be out there looking for players. Unfortunately, I got roped into leading a team because the GM promised me she would do all the recruitment, although I still find myself having to help out every so often, as it's just that bad.

I truly don't know what can be done to fix this:
• Merging all the North American servers together would probably help a lot; at least I could trial people more readily
• Crossrealm was a help, although if you end up with too many recruits at a given time, suddenly you can no longer Master Loot and get guild credit for kills
• Personal Loot should help some, as it gives us an easier time grabbing PUGs, friends that didn't raid with their guild that week, etc. (won't help guild credit though)
• A small bit of flex (say, 18-22) would help ease roster pressures without (hopefully) causing a huge amount of variability in how the fight is executed
• Perhaps a service where a player can temporarily change faction (kinda like the PvP guy) so a player can temporarily trial with a guild on the other faction, prior to spending $cash to fully transfer

Legendaries
The conventional wisdom is that Legendaries were too random. I believe the root cause of grief to be the fact that both throughput and utility legendaries were mixed in to the same pool. For example, I WANT to love Aggramar's Stride, but there is no conceivable reason for me to put that on in a raid encounter; the throughput legendaries are simply too valuable. For DPS, if the legendary pool was only Timeless Strategem/Aggramar's Stride/Prydaz/Mannoroth's Bloodletting Manacles/Rethu's Incessant Courage, then there would have been a lot less frustration on what order they were received in. (For what it's worth, I feel like I change up my tank legendaries a bit more).

Raid Balance
By this, I mean that Tomb of Sargeras focused far too much on soak mechanics. Antorus backed off of that, but then relied heavily on mechanics that required someone (typically a mobility class) to do the heavy lifting (Hasabel orbs, Imonar bridge, High Command pods) in a way that pretty much guaranteed their overall damage would suffer. While I do believe that a desire for parsing is a problem with the player and not the game, it's still something I need to manage as a raid leader.

The Good:
• Heroic Maiden of Virture was a really fun encounter
• With the exception of a few outliers, class balance was probably the best it has been of any expansion
• The frequent updates at the start of the expansion really made it feel like problems were going to be addressed before they got out of hand; that seemed to fall off as the expansion went on, however.
• The Netherlight Crucible was a fun and clever way to spike player power at the end of ToS to help some guilds beat that next hurdle (I don't necessarily like the randomness, but it was different)
• Raid gear was actually good in PvP

I could probably write more, but this is enough.
1. A hefty portion of players don't find arguments about 10-man sucking plausible because they've already experienced mythic 10-man, and it was fun. (While it wasn't named mythic at the time,

That wasn't Mythic. The requirement to tune for both 10 and 25 was a completely different animal to what we have today.
Feedback from a more casual 2-night a week mythic raiding guild. There are plenty of guilds like us that want to progress on hard content beyond Heroic but cannot afford to run 3-5 nights a week or commit leveling multiple classes for class stacking.

- Flexible mythic would be a huge boon for a smaller guild like ours where 1 or 2 absences meant having to skip mythic raiding for weeks. While it might be the norm at the 0.01% top end, it is hard to keep a large roster or avoid occasional absences.

- Cross-realm raiding or at least trialing would be amazing. Allow guilds to mythic raid cross-realm with 80% from the same guild in the same way master looter flag used to work. It would let mythic guilds more easily recruit and players try guilds before committing to expensive transfers.

- Better incentives for mythic raiding. Titanforging really hurt mythic raiding motivation. It made it more accessible for people to start mythic raiding by inflating ilvl for the first few bosses, but the reward didn't match the challenge. Two suggestions : 1) Give all raid drop gear 2 gem sockets. This would give raid gear a slight advantage for min/maxing and allow more customization for those that would really appreciate it. 2) With personal loot, allow raid loot to be obliterated/scrapped into a token that can be used to upgrade gear ilvl a couple of times (say 2 times max) This would incentivize farm raids and be progressive passive gearing weekly.
I've raided most tiers since Heroic (Now Mythic) raiding was introduced in Wrath with different degrees of success. I would say that Legion as a whole is my 2nd favorite expansion for Hardest Mode Raiding in its entirety behind only Pandaria. In my opinion, there were no serious slip ups as bad as Dragon Soul or Trial of the Crusader, but Tomb of Sargeras was a close low point for me.

My biggest complain about Mythic Raiding in Legion, and where it falls short of my favorite; Pandaria, was that it missed across the board in giving me a good, smooth, sense of progression, and I think this problem got worse as the expansion continued. To be precise, in the other expansions, I felt that character progression mattered more, that "This week will be better!" because I did things outside of practicing "The Dance" on a particular boss to make it easier. It is sad how little I cared about item level for most of this expansion because I felt it would not make the slightest bit of difference to my raid performance. Likewise, Legion's other systems that could have given a sense of progression; AP Grind, Titanforging, Legendary Trinket (Instead of Valor Upgrades, Legendary Ring or Cloak), failed pretty spectacularly for me. In most cases they were simply requirements that could easily or needed to be met before you even set foot in Mythic, or of too little value to matter like the Trinket Upgrades.

The first tier of Legion, felt great because I had a ton of Traits, Gear, Legendaries, Trinkets that I knew I could get with some effort, as well as having the typically easy introductory raid in Emerald Nightmare. Somewhere between Trial of Valor and Nighthold, the fun, early feeling of progression began winding down starting with the required grind to 54 Artifact Traits. That said, Nighthold was my favorite raid this expansion, it was a raid where it felt that DPS/HPS/Tanking checks made a difference and things could be skipped or made easier, although even it was subject to a massive middle of the tier Nerf. This sudden [but predictable] Nerfing also happened in Tomb of Sargeras, and I wondered where the normal sense of progression that I had enjoyed in previous expansions went. It was jarring to go from struggling on Mistress to easily beating her and the other farm content. The last 3 Tiers (+ToV) felt either way too hard and waiting for a Nerf like Tomb, or way too easy, like 9/11M Antorus. Additionally, and I think somewhat related, this made farming the Raids a tedious chore. Not only did I know that the "Upgrades" hardly mattered, but any hopes of Titanfroging were also best left to the Weekly M+15 Chest; the source of half of my gear, historically. To add to this, both ToS and Antorus farm never got any better (Except for Sweet, Sweet Nerfs), and consisted of waiting for the person to either eat the Bomb (Maiden) or eat the second Bomb (Kin'Garoth), while I waited for a Res. To further my point, my character was 970 iLvL/75 Traits/1 Legendary Trinket in less than a month after Mythic Antorus opened, and it was about 971 iLvL/78 Traits/1 Slightly Better Legendary Trinket when I killed Mythic Argus some 4 Months later, and the rest of my Raid Team was much the same (Thanks Arcanocrystal and T20!). Now to me, this made a good bit of the last few raids feel more like an Action Adventure game with 19 other people trying not to slip up than an RPG, and it was easily what I least enjoyed about Legion Mythic Raiding.

All of that said, I still ranked Legion Raiding as my 2nd favorite, and most of that is because of its consistency relative to other expansions. For starters, while Tomb and Nighthold were seemingly mistuned to the point that they required some major Mid-Tier Nerfs, I feel it was much better to err on the side of too difficult, so we didn't get any Dragon Souls, and the tuning problems were handled somewhat quickly anyways. The pace of the Tiers also felt pretty good to me, as I never had to take a break from raiding due to a lack of content, except for the end of Antorus, which will still end up being half as long a break as I took every other expansion. Even a lopsided Tier like Antorus, where I spent half of my time on Argus' platform, still felt fairly fun from start to finish (I enjoyed Argus Progression).

In terms of bosses, every end boss, except Xavier(?), was memorable and were among my favorite bosses in Legion, with my favorite one being Gul'Dan. It felt there was enough variety in the end bosses to constitute 2 or 3 bosses, and it felt like they received much love in terms of design, including visually. Mechanically, I really enjoyed Imonar and his Bridge quite a bit, even on farm, as well as Spellblade, Chronomatic Anomaly, and Elisande, which always felt fun to do. And despite what the haters say, Eonar was a refreshing change of pace, despite being the easiest Mythic Raid Boss I think I've ever done. Eonar felt like it was in the right place in the instance, unlike Hellfire Assault which felt like Trash upon more Trash. As far as Patchwerk bosses, I'd like more like Krosus and less like Varimathras, as I tanked this snooze fest every time, with the only bright spot being that as that as Paladin I could snipe the Healers. I am also very glad Antorus eased up on the 0 Mistake Bosses of ToS. On that note, the most disappointing Mythic Bosses to me were Maiden and Aggramar, mainly because they were my favorite bosses in the Heroic version, and felt like the mechanics were taken to an un-fun extreme. They were nowhere near the difficulty of early Mistress/Avatar/KJ/Argus, but they were extremely punishing over things that aren't exactly fun in and of themselves, like another person's CC. Additionally, needing to have a geared Alt DK gets real old.

Visually, I also found Legion's raids second only to Pandaria. I can say Nighthold is my favorite looking raid of all time, including Gul'Dan's platform, and that made the scores of hours spent there much more pleasant, than having to be in say Blackhand's Room or Black Wing Descent, or half of the incredibly depressing Fel/Fire/Felfire themed raids I've done over 10 years. I do not think I am understating the importance of that either, as even Antorus...the Burning Throne, had enough visual variety that I didn't go nuts. Both the Burning Throne and the Pantheon were fantastic, as stellar as Star Augur's Room. Kil'Jaeden's Ship was a bit nauseating, but compared to the rest of Tomb, it was very much a welcome change.

Finally, I should add that I have pretty much only Tanked raids since WotLK, and while Mythic Raiding was overall fine, I don't feel Tanking had anywhere as much of an impact as in previous expansions, and from that roles' perspective alone, Legion Raid Tanking was my least favorite. I'm sure some of this is due to the Nerfed DPS/HPS of tanks, but especially with Tomb of Sargeras, mechanically, I just felt like an irrelevant punching bag. Demonic Inquisition was there to nearly one shot me with an Auto Attack, Harjatan had one actual Tank Ability that you had to share responsibility with the rest of the raid for, Sisters had literally nothing, same with Host, same with Mistress, Maiden needed a CD Rotation, and Avatar was decent with the movement. Kil'Jaeden was the only fight in that whole raid I where felt like I was actually contributing. I will say that Antorus, NH, and EN did not have that problem as a whole, thankfully, but there were far too many spots in Mythic where any DPS could have switched to Tank and done a fine job on their first try, and that seems unacceptable, considering they had plenty of their own mechanics to deal with.
Antorus was pretty much a joke when it came to difficulty curve. The first 9 bosses were sub 20 pulls and then you dump 150 into agg and 200 into argus. The tier being over 90% of pulls on two bosses is a great way to burn out.

Farm is also something that I'd prefer to see made faster. If we did a full run with no wipes and no comp switching it would probably take about 2 hours with fights such as argus still taking over 9 minutes. Compare that to HFC where for most guilds farm fights were significantly shorter. Obviously ring is an outlier but 2 hours every week and being required to pay attention on fights that are still punishing is tiresome.

For anyone complaining that they cannot run mythic because they are on a small server please look at my guild and my server. 20 man mythic is perfect and if you cannot achieve that you have no business doing the difficulty. x-realm mythic came extremely early this tier and if you still cannot fill that is a personal problem.

WF/TF should be similar to how it was in ToV. A maximum of +10 was fine, it's rather annoying seeing people get +25 ilvl pieces sheerly through RNG.

If I had to rank the raids I'd probably say NH>ToV>Ant>EN>ToS

Good difficulty scaling and rewarding gear is important. NH saw some of the most impactful trinkets in the game as opposed to now where I throw on a stat stick and a pantheon trinket that does .5% of my damage.

Class stacking wasn't nearly as big of a deal in NH and ToV as it was in antorus, tos, or en.
Hi, so this is going to read very much like a stream of consciousnesses style, without a whole lot of editing, and I wanted to get this in before the thread closed. It's very much what you could call a rough draft, if even that. I hope its digestible enough.

For reference, I usually raid around the US75-US100 level, so some fights go through some measure of nerfing right around when we get there or shortly after. This is written from the perspective of a ranged dps, and I don't put extreme focus into how fun it was to tank, heal, or playing as a melee. I mostly like to focus on stuff like "how many seconds did we have to react to this mechanic and how fair was it", "how tight were the DPS checks", "can you make any intuitive/smart decision making or finesse the fight", or "its place in the instance". Stayed away from too much of a mage angle, just speaking in generalities off the top of my head.

So here's all 40 Legion bosses

[[[Emerald Nightmare]]]

[Nythendra]

MC mechanic is better suited for a mid-instance boss, like Imonar's bridge. The mechanic never felt like it was really all that under control by raid leaders until we started using a Weakaura and forcing some early MCs. Still never felt like we had total control over the mechanic and should have been more about MCs as punishment instead of a forced burst AOE thing. Some input lag issues, and significant spec disparity in breaking the MCs. Could have been easier to break the MCs

[Elerethe Renferal]

At the ilvl we had, surviving p1 was rough with the link debuff and the crash damage. Windwalk Totem and Guttural Roars played a huge part here. Think the amount of damage could from the crash could have been toned down or the amount of distance you needed to run. Liked P2 with the boss jumping around and deciding how many gust stacks to take. I think it's good that P3 was yolo, because of the difficulty of p1 and p2. Visually and mechanically I think this boss in EN had the most going for it and had felt like it took twice the effort of a regular boss to make this. Like, hey I'm fighting a spider boss that's doing spider things, and now I'm fighting a bird, while getting to be one myself. Throwback to Alysrazor, my favorite boss in FL, though I was a fire mage. FL had a spider and bird boss too concidentally, and Elerethe, did the spider thing a whole lot better than the heroic Bethilac mechanics.

[Ursoc]

Heard there were some charge to the wall exploits, but otherwise, a great fight. Charge mechanic gave the targetted player plenty of time to react so there was nothing unfair about it. Needed 860ish ilvl or it was super tight on the dps check, or at least good legos (not the case for me as a marquee/shardless fire mage). I think this boss was intended to be 2nd in the instance, but the dps check was high enough that guilds went and did Elerethe instead. You could argue that the dps requirement for this and Krosus was overshot, whereas Fel Lord in HFC hit the mark. It's good when there's some mythic bosses that are great for just helping mythic guilds getting their feet wet with the new tiers gear. Ursoc could have been looser, but I get that there's not as much room to play around with just 7 bosses in an instance. I really think 9 should be the minimum so you have this wiggle room to experiment and give some easyish bosses. Back on topic though, Ursoc really fit as an angry bear boss. Most remember him fondly. You don't always need a whole lot of complicated mechanics for a fight to be fun. The nightmare bears could have had more hp, but then it would have led to more class stacking, and the punishment for not killing them quickly was high enough, like the Shadow adds on vari.

[Il'gynoth]

Brain phase mechanics were good, other than tentacle damage being too high. Arcane Torrent would have been nice for a few bosses this expansion. I think there should have been just one brain phase as more of a "hey you probably won, heres the final phase" kind of thing, instead of the extra repetition, though repeated burst dps phases always been a thing (C'thun, Kin'garoth, Spine, etc). Until guilds figured out how to cheese 8 stacks of the Bursting mechanic with Spirit Link/personals, it was definitely too rough difficulty-wise. I firmly believe that this fight should have been at Eonar level rather than hardest of bosses 2-5. There was ample room to drop the purple puddles so that never became too challenging, but the fight as a whole felt tuned too high, and like Hellfire Assault and M'uru, its trying to make hyjal trash into a boss. I think this is fine honestly, but they should be at around Eonar level. The non-brain phase mechanics weren't engaging and felt like I wasn't being tested as a raider. I think everyones going to say this was their least favorite fight, but these types of Hellfire Assault fights aren't popular in general, but I think they should continue to exist for the sake of variety. Good old god dialogue/riddles.

[Dragons of Nightmare]

This fight had no real enrage, and was easily cheesed by stacking several extra healers. This wasn't obvious to us at the start. I think they should have received a stacking damage buff the longer you remained in one phase. The mechanics were healer intensive in general and was more about winning the war of attrition, while also sitting in the back AFKing on top of flowers. The portals were easy to do and not too overwhelming, kind of like PK's portals, which is how they should be. Destruction Locks/multidotters tore this fight up. There's a lot of mechanics going on with this boss, and I feel like it was intended to be the last one done before Cenarius, but it was easier than Il'gynoth. Tail swipe should have just been a small knockdown, as it was finnicky. Dragon bosses are cool, and it hit the right notes in that regard. The boss room was too big for kiting though, but on the other hand, bosses that heal can be soulcrushingly frustrating, so it's a good thing that the last phase spirits could be kited, as not everybody has that burst aoe or multidot potential. I think Elerethe would be my second favorite, followed by Cenarius or Dragons here. Felt very mythicy.

[Cenarius]

Brambles could have had a debuff. Maybe that would have trivialized the fight, and I understand that by spreading enough you could at least have a good idea whether its coming for you or not, but that forces more than just a loose spread. The fight was very much about beating that 35% check before the 3rd or 4th Forces or whatever it was (archimonde orb flashbacks). Heard Shadow Priests used some insanity/STM exploit by resetting the boss to beat that check. The exploding wisps were fun but it like a Paragons of the Klaxxi kind of thing where a couple of people are expected to die, and it'll still be alright? Well, it wasn't alright since we didnt have the Shadow Priests to beat the 35% check consistently, so it was a little frustrating losing people there. Didn't feel like you were being outplayed. The undead dragon was cheesed by having multiples tanked in the back, sort of like what happened later on Desolate Host. Other adds didn't have a whole lot going for them. The rest of the mechanics were really top notch and involved player choice/good play. The only part that felt a bit unforgivingly random was the spawns of the Beast lines, and you could say the same about a Rent soul spawning under the raid in last phase or a melee bomb on Kingaroth. Other than needing to meet that frustrating dps check, it felt mythicy, and you thought alright, this is definitely a step up from the others (except for Il'gynoth)

[Xavius]

Turned out undertuned because certain specs are really, really good, at abusing cooldown resets. Dialog was also too repetitive and grating (NO! I will not permit it on loop in my head). Once you figured out the spawns for the beams, you just had to put down a raid marker for the general area. At the same time, if this fight had turned out harder, it would have been quite tiring to do many of these repetitive mechanics over and over. There had to be some room for error for getting corruption. It was going to be difficult to tune this properly with all the out of the box gameplay aspects, and again thats more suited for a mid or early boss. I don't think the super damage from full corruption like Cho'gall was all that necessary. The cloudy room also created FPS issues for some machines, just like on Varimathras. The blades mechanic was really good, though it certainly made raiders mad at each other when it wasn't done perfectly (which is part of why this would have been really frustrating if it had turned out to be a heavy pass/fail mechanic like Maiden bombs). I also like brain link mechanics (or the reverse). I read there's some extra dialogue with the Shadow Priest artifact, but the Rift of Aln seems like a missed opportunity, and there could have been at least 2 bosses in this area. Xavius could have also used a distinct mythic only transformation too for the last part of the fight, like maybe toning down the multidot aspects and making it more about a straight burn into a brutish creature. Like he could have amplified the blades several fold, like the archimonde beams, but less complicated. Overall underwhelming. Cool xmog shoulders though. I'd like to have a rareish cloth shoulder I could farm. But yeah, 10-20 pulls for a lot of guilds. Some specs broke the fight.

[[[Trial of Valor]]]

[Odyn]

Required 35 traits for the 5% dmg buff, which was too much of a grind. I think this instance in general did not have good release timing, and should have came out at release, and extended Nighthold one more month. Having raids released right by Thanksgiving/holidays doesn't work out too well. Many guilds opted to take a break instead of bashing their heads against the wall with Helya. The gear was going to be replaced after all. All the mechanics on this fight were fair and really good though, and it felt like a polished boss. At the same time, it felt too much like a rehash of the dungeon boss, and Hymdall/Hryja acted like they didn't recognize you. Solid boss. Needed that weakaura to yell at me for what runes to pick up, and I think players could have gotten a couple more seconds to spread according for the last phase colors. The floor lighting up shouldn't have been random either, as some patterns felt like a free kill. Tornado graphic could have been toned down a bit

[Guarm]

Was cheesed by 1 tanking. DPS requirement was also really high. It was an interesting way to do the dispel mechanic, but the fire circles hit way too hard and you had to be premoving to dodge them. The Stampede was a very good and simple mechanic with plenty of fair warning, though not that melee friendly. Overall an okay fight.

[Helya]

This fight was brutal in its first forms, with the mass dispel requirements. Cutter beams did feel very mythicy. P1 tentacle soaking had no rng which was good. Killing the oozes never felt overly straining. Boss could have used about 10% less health to feel less painful. The last phase could be effectively handled with a good dance, but it still felt too convoluted and not perfectly controllable with potential cutters and goo in the way. Many guilds skipped or gave up on this boss due to the holiday timing. Cutter beams are cool, just felt like there was way too much going on here in the last phase and the dispel mechanic prenerf.

[[[Nighthold]]]

[Skorpyron]

Felt like a suitable "free first boss" like Garothi. Just a fun meme fest. Great that getting knocked back wasn't a wipe, but made it just somewhat more bothersome. Also liked that you received a debuff when you were LOS behind the crystal. Something to consider for the future. This could have been done for Goroth too but you get plenty of time to get behind one.

[Chronomatic Anomaly]

At the very start of the tier, this 2nd boss was kinda rough on the healing requirements, but with gear it fell in line. Just was some confusion too on whether or not to ignore specific sets and how many to send. Easier than trilliax, but no big deal really. When I did this fight in Legion Beta, it was like some crazy frogger thing with the orbs, instead of them just coming out/in. Good that mechanic got removed because this is just a 2nd boss after all, and we won't want something on the level of Horridon. The slow mechanic wasn't all that popular but it was fine. Felt like no specs really benefited much from the unique mechanics here, unless there was something to keep it in line. Overall a cool fight with a nice visual of the Nightwell.

[Trilliax]

Most popular voice acting this xpac. Wacky robot boss. Mythic mechanic was underwhelming, but I think the base fight had enough going on on its own for a 3rd boss. Many guilds killed this boss within 30 mins-1hr of Anomaly, and that's fine really. Was a test of raider nonselfishness, like not dpsing for 8 seconds to go eat a cake. The fight makes guilds mad at each other though since its so obvious, but thats okay as long as theres not too many of those in a tier. Draining the robots energy seemed unnecessary, and it was better to just stand out with the AOE. One of those rooms where if you looked up, it looked cool, but I'm used to not looking up, lol. Could have been the 2nd boss in the instance. Cutter boss was slow enough to be fair and honest, even with the direction swaps, with enough startup time too.

[Krosus]

So this boss was done 4th by a lot of guilds, but honestly they should have farmed Tich and some other bosses first with 20/20 hindsight knowledge. The DPS check was a bit too far out there in terms of needing 51-54 traits. Slam also did physical damage, which made my life miserable as a clothie. The swirlies should have taken a couple seconds longer to spawn given the distance you needed to travel and the randomness of it all. Like something more like Lei Shen where you could do more preplanning. Like a few other fights on this xpac, Guttural Roars was too strong with its short CD (2 bears means a roar every 30 sec). Not having Arcane Torrents or an AOE stun on this was a bummer, but overall didn't like the randomness of spawns, and casts getting off shouldn't have hurt that much. Would have been nice to wear Prydaz here but the DPS check was too high. Got nuts by the end. Maybe this boss was intended to be done before Augur, but hard to say at this point. Either way it was a huge jump from Trilliax, and he could have had like 5-10% less HP and more time to react to the swirlies. I do like that the beams alternated consistently throughout the whole fight (think Garothi does this too.) Someone made a weakaura to tell us what beam was next and the guy would just type Left or Right at the beginning of the fight to get it going. Liked that mechanic. Just not the add spawns or the overall level of incoming damage.

[Spellblade]

This fight received a few incoming damage nerfs. Everyone wearing Prydaz was definitely optimal. Felt like a few fights in one. Damage check wasn't all that high. Arcane Torrent would have been nice for the Fire phases. We used a weakaura to tell you to drop each fire circle based on the marker on your head, and that worked out really well, basically like a Fel Lord seed of corruption thing. There was just enough time that it was completely fair to the player, but you could have messed it up if you zoning out for 2 seconds. The damage of the Mark of Frost was just too high even after the 10% nerf. Some classes just don't have what it takes to keep up, and stacking extra healers was optimal. Its one of those fights where if you know the optimal positioning and strat, its a really fun fight, just a bit frustrating to work out at first. Liked that you had to call for backups based on who got the first Marks. Its a very clean fight with minimal rng despite all thats going on. My only issue with it was the incoming damage levels. I could say it was too demanding for a 4th boss, but you could have waited to do this. Very good mythic boss. Maybe the mythic version felt too much like heroic though, since the Fel add didn't do a whole lot, and its cleave during Arcane could be solo tanked with a monk/monk statue. Like the Heroic one could have been stripped down more. Maybe the Fire add phase could have been easier, as it was a bit too much pass/fail.

[Tichondrius]

So this fight had strats where you blew up the brands and one where you didn't. Early on we had a choice of what to do, and we made the right choice of doing it without blowing up brands, so we killed it a week earlier than we might have. Its hard to say whether or not it was intended, but honestly it played out very very well during the night phase and during Pillars (just assign one healer to stand behind each). With this strat, this boss felt like the true 4th boss. Given the lore significance of this guy, he could have been penultimate boss material, or at least just as important as Xavius. I liked how the shadow dmg from not standing behind pillars didn't apply in big chucks but like .5 seconds apart so you could see if you're properly LOS or not (again a debuff might have been nice). It was a little bit difficult for me to see anything in the night phase with minimum settings, especially the beams. Good mythic boss. Liked that you needed to drag out the bloods to kill them (at least early on)

[Botanist]

Least favorite boss of the tier, and this seems largely unpopular in general. Basically Call of Night felt like an awful mechanic considering everything else you needed to deal with. There used to be a sentiment "melee dont have to do mechanics in Nighthold" and this is where it started. I think if melee more actively swapped to the flowers, they wouldn't have been such a hassle when I'm chained down by Call of Night. Friendly nameplates helped with Call of Night, but the nerf was needed. Going into the last phase, the boss was very buggy and would skip exploding orb sets, sort of like Argus did the first week with modules, but that got fixed quickly. Call of Night just wasn't fun and it felt very Professor Putricideish with people going out to essentially die because it was too much of a hassle, or at least cheesing with Shaman Res Totem/using all Battle Resses. As a BM hunter it was fine, but yeah, ranged mobility has been nerfed. At least there was some grace period with it (and they got bigger) if not soaked, but maybe it could have been a second or two longer to be less frustrating, and allowing for some measure of finesse. The spore soaking rotation was cool though, like the runes Kromrok in HFC. Rogues OP for soaking (maybe too OP in Tomb, but was okay here). There were FPS issues with this and a couple other bosses because of all the nearby trash that needed to be loaded, and could have been better optimized. The layout and feel of the room and the mechanics were nice aesthetically though, and not killing the explody orbs too fast worked as a non-trivial mechanic. The boss could have used an extra minute on berserk, or maybe just less frequency of Call of Night. Last phase was just super frustrating and felt largely out our hands based on Call of Night rng, with the possibility to hit berserk based on the wrong people dying (should have been given the kill at that point). Spawning extra adds was also too pass/fail for the last phase. Wasn't an option at all. It would have been interesting to see how the other orders would have played out, but when the community finds something that works, they replicate and stick to it.

[Star Augur]

Didn't get to do much of this pre-nerf but the change to allow 15 seconds for Conjunction was much appreciated. Big giant beam in last phase was mythicy. I think a lot of people will say this was their favorite fight in Nighthold (unless youre a melee, then conjunction might have been more frustrating). Hit all the right notes, with a couple appropriate mechanics. Fel Phase was a bit overtuned in terms of incoming damage/rng with conjunction, but beyond that the fight was fine in its final iteration. Was nice to be able to say, hey were going to commit and make this phase push and hope for the best (like Frost into Fel, Fel into Shadow). Good when it works. Really cool room. Space is cool. I think this is intentional, but I think the environment artists go out of their way to put patterns on the ground so we have stand in relatively the same spot every pull. I really do appreciate stuff like that. Was funny doing this the first couple times and people not knowing what the giant eye was going to look like since they hadn't watched a video, like you'd think it was the planets instead or something

[Grand Magistrix Elisande]

This fight was very very rigid in terms of beating dps thresholds, and I get it, every phase is a mirror of the other time layers, and shes doing time hacks. When you could beat the 1:50 4th Arcane Ring or whatever it was, it was a solid fight, but before you made that push it was super frustrating to deal with other iterations. I think that the orb soaking could have dealt less initial damage, and more consistency in terms of spawns, and a color that wasn't as similar to the floor (red?). Blue on purple. The fight got hotfixed to allow for more leeway on killing the blue add, which was certainly needed (and also needed for Mistress Eels). Last phase's mechanic was too easy but I think that was fine after all you had to deal with. Interrupting Recursion was a big deal in P2, and at first I was confused and thought you needed to do it in the first phase too. Beams also hit too hard. Yeah, you could go to the wall, but there's DPS checks to be made. The fight was very very heavily ranged favored for making the P1 check, as you couldn't dps her at all when she jumped across the room as a melee. Guilds were benching melee for this just to meet the check. The Ring mechanic itself was really good. Didn't like the randomness of spawns for the orb soaks. Good penultimate last boss when you could meet the P1 damage check.

[Guldan]

Very solid fight and the second best end boss fight. Like with Elisande, we originally were going to need to do the version of the fight where you had to deal with an extra full set of mechanics, plus the Fel Lord at 3:05 I think? Like we wanted to push by 2:50 before the eyes. The eyes hurt a whole a lot and forced good spreading. Flames of Sargeras could be easily dealt with by assigning general areas to every ranged. Nearly every mechanic in this fight played out like it was supposed to, except for the Well of Souls being cheesed by rogues/locks (but honestly there was enough going on plus Flames of Sargeras). The Empowered Eye could have done less damage, or been easier to kill before the 8th tick/eventual replicate. Ebonbolt helped out a ton here. Killing him before the Storm was tough early on. Really liked the speed of the mythic Gusting Winds. Many mechanics here felt like final boss level and not something you'd see early in the instance. Skipping P1 like Imperator was a great choice too. You fight the real empowered version from the getgo. However, there's one very harsh criticism I have to give here. there were very crippling desync bugs on this fight, and it was mostly due to the initial knockback at the start of the fight and occasionally Bonds. It was basically a wipe at that point, and happened quite often. You wouldn't even know it was a desync at first until your bonds weren't breaking, so it'd waste even more time. They'd have to hearth out, restart client, and get summoned. This happened on at least once in every 10-15 pulls and persisted throughout progression and on rekills. One of the most annoying things to deal with that makes you go "this fight is completely broken. On second thought just now, perhaps I should have tried to diagnose the problem more. Maybe not moving at all on pull would have fixed it, but there were times it happened to me too and I was doing nothing at all. Back to the main topic though, the rest of the fight was fine and forced all 20 players to do something, like Argus, which I'll get to later. Everyone had to physically move their character a lot and do the sort of dance, though not as articulated as Argus was. The last phase was too easy, but considering all you had to get through, I'm always a fan of semi-easy last phases if it was frontloaded to begin with (Avatar would have been insane if you couldnt have practiced it). I liked managing the Nightorb. Had a Spellsteal BT Council feel. Whereas Elisande was very ranged-heavy, it was better to bring as many warriors/ret pallies/rogues as you could for this so you could have more spread room to work with and better P1 eye/P3 parasite damage. Bugs aside, solid fight, hit all the right story notes too. Many guilds killed this in sub 200 pulls, but was that really all that bad considering the tiers are shorter now? (except for the last one). I'm alright with that. Great fight.

[[[Tomb of Sargeras]]]

[Goroth]

Mechanically, the fight seemed appropriate as a first boss, but it had too much pass/fail with soaking, which made it tougher than the next two. Stacking an extra healer or too was optimal because that Crashing Comet debuff did more than it should. The crashing star/blowing up pillar mechanics were fine. Soaking the circles isn't as bad when you realize it doesn't spawn near the quadrant with green stuff. The soaking circles themselves could have been more obvious as it was a little difficult to see them, and less in the back of the room out of range of the boss. I won't beat a dead horse with "there were too many soaking mechanics in Tomb". That's been said before. This is my own personal theory, but it is my own understanding the wide array of soaking mechanics in tomb were to engage melee more after the complaints about melee not needing to do enough in Nighthold. Hard to say, but they were too pass/fail.

[Demonic Inquistion]

Kind of a meme fight when you stacked balance druids and shadow priests, as some other classes weren't well equipped to handle it at the start. Early on it helped to use a weakaura tracking all insanity in the raid, but it wasn't all that necessary when we had the gear. Quills being changed to 5 seconds was a fantastic change. I know I've echoed this theme too much already, but I appreciate when mechanics give players time to react and make proper decisions. Good as an early boss. Cage mechanic was kinda cool.

[Harjatan]

So this fight could have been deemed too easy because the mythic add was taken out, but it still ended up fine as a 3rd boss if you ask me because people weren't great about running across the room and splitting the cleave in time. I really can't nitpick a single aspect of this fight, other than some rng with what eggs you got. The inhale water phase was kind of hard hitting on some classes, but again you could just wear Prydaz, and some of that was just being punished for taking puddle stacks (though some unavoidable). Good fight.

[Sisters of the Moon]

Best fight in Tomb both visually and mechanically, except for the fact that everything hit way too hard, basically a Spellblade 2.0. The mythic mechanic was mythicy. One other major criticism was being "womboed" by several mechanics at once, like Moon Burn/glaive etc. I still think that the glaive shouldn't have hurt the person it was on. Or at least it could drop a ground graphic that you had a couple seconds to move out of, like with the Saber on Coven. Also didn't like how she'd throw her glaive and then sometimes jump across the room so its guaranteed to go through melee. Liked Glaive Storm a lot. Yeah you could cheese it by running to a walls/far away from the boss, but that's what you do for Gaze on Argus too. A few seconds of patience can go a long way in mythic raiding.

[Desolate Host]

Undertuned for a 5th boss? Maybe. Considering all the out of the box stuff, like a new Gothik, it was fine being slightly harder than Eonar. Made no sense that Hunters could turtle the spear and stay up but Mages couldnt with ice block (I think there was some kind of hotfix that caused this). I think it was also undertuned because a 3rd tank would drag the templars out, but at the same time, it did feel very Hellfire Assaultish/out of the box. Soulbind was a good mechanic, and the Wailing Cries (or pizza slices as I called it). Was maybe too much cheesing with soloing soaks in the last phase, but it was kinda needed because there were guaranteed to be more people down than up. The fight was alright. You'd kill this and then not kill anything for at least a month though.

[Mistress]

So this fights probably quite polarizing, and a lot has been said on the matter. I don't like the fixed hps eels where you had to sit balance druids or certain people, and it would get worse on rekills with more gear. I didn't get to the initial version where guilds cheesed with blood DKs, but I did say that Hydra Shot damage should be nerfed by at least 25% so you're not having to deal with a weakaura, and hoping said weakaura assigns everything well enough. This nerf did come but it was later. You needed to meet a couple really tough P1/P3/berserk checks for DPS and the boss certainly had about 10% too much HP. Even with good bufferfish play, the boss was just overly tuned, and maybe that's where the problem comes in. The bufferfish were strong, and the design team might have overcompensated Mistress's HP for the strength of bufferfish + cooldown stacking (which wasn't as good as it seemed). Yeah it ramped up but it didn't get to 50 soon enough, or at all. Not to mention picking up the Bufferfish meant less people to soak, so it felt awful in general. Arcane Torrent would have been nice for murloc interrupts. The Octopus suck-in mechanic in P2 was very RNGy with what side it picked, plus how many inks on each side. The position should have been obvious about 20 seconds before, so the boss could be dragged there. It was nice that you could "bait" Crashing Wave, but this wasn't obvious to me early on, and we didn't use the door enough. Monk reset was OP for saving time on runbacks. Last phase had too many brutal overlaps if you ask me. Sacrificing the last set or two of Hydra Shot was fine, but the boss just had too much health. Didn't like the Burden of Pain mechanic at all. Wasn't really needed on top of everything else. Another tank mechanic angle could have been explored.

[Maiden]

Pass/fail to the extreme. The way guilds ended up doing this boss wasn't what was originally intended, but the strat itself for the non-blowback phase was fine and fair. However, the blowback phase was far too reliant on a weakaura to do things right, but if we were doing it again, we would have had the raid leader call out whos doing what every pull based on debuffs. Not a hard boss to get lucky on and get a kill after 80 quick 1 minute wipes, but just felt awful to do in general with the extreme pass/fail. Didn't feel like raiding. Jumping in the hole with bomb was fine though.

[Avatar]

Didn't do the original version of the fight. The two beam soaking teams weren't obvious enough to the player without a weakaura. Don't like how that played out. Shadow Blades also felt way too unnecessary on top of all the other mechanics, and it'd pollute the lanes. Needing 3 or 4 rogues to solo soak all the green circles wasn't cool either. Lorewise, Avatar could have been the final boss here, and I feel like this fight needed a lot more polish than it got. Just way too mechanics in general, and the boss was very inconsistent on what order he'd do them in, and there'd be delays on Rupture exploding, and suddenly you took an extra stack of the beam. Running behind the person was better than infront, as we eventually found out, and living through them at full stacks just felt painful. The swirly dodging was cool though. I do like fights where you can compartmentalize the room and assign teams. The maiden would also phase at inconsistent times because of the boss's inconsistency and the 3rd shield push was brutal. Multidotting was also mandatory to meet the checks. Last phase was still heavy on pass/fail and it's very good that you're able to practice it, because wipe counts on this guy could have been much more worse than it already was. It'd suck when you had tornados going through your soak and there wasn't anything you could do. I think the meteor soak circles could have been bigger so you could finesse this a bit. Boss needed less hp.

[Kil'jaeden]

Hailed as one of the hardest bosses ever, and no doubt it was. So much you had to go through to even get an attempt at the last phase, which you could still wipe to to unforgiving Obelisk spawns. Had too much hp to start with, and the Armageddon rain/hail density nerfs were necessary, along with beam damage. All the changes were needed and it was still this soulcrushing boss. Many guilds gave up on or after Avatar because these 5 month tiers don't give you time to farm the gear from it anyway, and you want to be fresh for the next. If you had a couple of months to work on this though, it was certainly a soulcrushing boss. Too much pass/fail, difficult dps checks, needing to kill adds at the same time, long intermissions with nothing but hitting your W/strafe keys, and the Illidan phase you were just praying for good spawns so the mandatory Gorefiend's Grasp would go off because orbs hitting in the dark Illidan phase was bonkers. At least the orbs had fixed spawns. Goblin racial was too OP here, and some guilds even used convulted mouseover focus gateway macros for other hits. Everything just had too much hp, and I felt like taking 2 stacks wasn't all that viable for some specs. If it was, it would have been a different fight. The obelisk mechanic was basically carried by one person and it was super frustrating to deal with, especially if a bad flame orb spawns. I didn't dislike the fight all that much since I'm a blink class but this fight could have been way way less enjoyable if not. Many people don't seem to have fond memories of this guy, or the soaking mechanics on this and Avatar.

[[[Antorus]]]

[Garothi]

In general you could argue the first 9 were too easy, but a lot of that is because the instance has been out so long, like HFC. I didn't feel like it was all that bad. Like you aim for 2-3 super hard bosses a tier. Back on topic though, great first boss. No complaints at all. Yeah the room was a bit big for getting to soaks, but no issues at all really. Some nice and simple coordinated stacking and spreading.

[Felhounds]

Once you have enough gear, you skip the 3rd Siphon Corruption dance which has aids overlaps, and its a different fight. Early on my other more casual guild had a super long kill that was like with 947 ilvl and it just has some terrible overlaps at the end. The first two dances are completely fine. Don't like that you could get womboed by a Molten Touch grab, and drop into the Consuming Sphere spawn, but that seemed rare. Multidotting was a bit strong here, but not overly so. Good early boss.

[High Command]

This raid has several "special job fights". I didn't get to do pods much myself, but the gameplay seems simple enough at least. I don't think the ramping up damage on pod people was all that necessary though, and created disparities. Supposedly you can go bear form before clicking on it as resto/dps and cheese it hard. I would have liked a message when a non-tank hits a mine, or some debuff on the trigger person that makes it trackeable via a Weakaura (same with hitting Sha while dead on Argus). Fight was too long for a 3rd boss, but mechanically the boss was fine. Certainly unique. There's also one unfair overlap with the 6th Fusiliade with the Bombardment. Overall an okay fight, just not all that fun, just people getting mad at each other. Maybe the mines could have just been more forgiving for clearing big masses of them more often. I also needed to make a weakaura to tell me when I'm taking ticks of Bladestorm since I couldn't really see too well when everybodys clustered in a shield.

[Portal Keeper]

Would have liked Arcane Torrent for interrupting Imps. Elemental Shaman were low key mandatory for quick easy kills because of Earthquake interrupts. Felt kind of worthless on them as a Frost mage (kind of like the lack of utility in m+), but I felt like I had a place because of the ST for the minibosses. Moving the color buffs to other portals was an interesting job. Liked that collasping world had a precast so I could track the 10 second explosion appropriately. Felstorm Barrage was really fair in terms of how much time it gave you. Green portal was the most bothersome. Solid fight through and through for its place in the instance

[Eonar]

Not a whole to say here except for that when you have 11 bosses in an instance, you have room for a couple extremely out of the box fights. I really think that 10-11 boss tiers that last 6 or 7 months are ideal. I understand that the desire here was for tower defense. It could have been frustrating if this fight was harder, but it was fine. I don't like that it was backloaded and you had to wait for 5 minutes for the only difficult non-bottlenecked part of the fight. Going into the ship was cool, liked the ship teams. Healers found it frustrating trying to range everyone though and I honestly don't think the random ship aoe was necessary at all. Supposedly this fight had a soak mechanic but it got removed during the PTR. Good choice.

[Imonar]

So this might be a semi-polarizing boss, and I'm in the camp that Imonar is one of the best bosses in the instance. Yeah, its a fight where only a couple of people handle the really "hard" job on the fights, but player vs bridge really worked out. It was maybe a bit too healer intensive though, and maybe tanks clearing bridges 2 and 4 wasn't intended, but you really needed to because of how hard everything hit, the time alloted, plus the fire boulders. I liked Sleep Canister and Charged Blasts a lot. Very solid mechanics. Especially on the 4th platform where you should be waiting to dispel it (two way street). Empowered Pulse Grenade could be frustrating if you didn't have much survivability/ability to stay alive though. Very out of the box fight that both worked for what it set out to do and its place in the instances. This isn't the kind of fight you need to see in an instance very often, but everything worked. It was that small step up from the first 5 that was needed, though it was kind of silly that guilds were bringing up to 3 resto druids for their raid cds and mobility

[Kingaroth]

Not sure if the ignore all later bombs strat was intended, but it felt like the proper way to do the fight, but you were kind of praying that one didn't spawn in the melee lane at the end of the fight. At least it usually didn't. Killing the same robots might not have been intended, but honestly, this fight was difficult enough on its own, and Demolish/Annhilation were just too unforgiving, especially Annhilation. Lot of spec disparity here though. Having Terminus Signaling Beacons and WW monks helped tremendously. Maybe this fight was a bit too frustrating for boss 7, and more of a gear check, but I do like how the bomb mechanic played out, calls being made for "melee not safe"/"hug"/etc, and players needing to exercise patience to get back in. The raid damage was pretty high with low hp levels though. Great fight. Second best behind Argus? All those bombs up at the end was mythicy.

[Varimathras]

I didn't get to do the initial iteration of this fight, but the later version I did, just seemed really bland. Didn't like how the ranged Embrace spawn is really random relative to the boss, but I do think the "kill this add in 3.5 seconds' is something new that hasn't been explored much. Like the multidot specs werent good at this, but they're better on Coven at least. Maybe he was too late in the instance, but honestly there could have been one embrace instead of two, and it'd feel a whole lot less pass/fail. You can be 11/11M and wipe on this fight a few times. At least it's like Maiden where they're just fast wipes and you can do it again. I'm not going to be too hard on this fight because its the token ST fight (mostly), but yeah, too pass/fail.

[Coven of Shivarra]

Very melee unfriendly in general due to Storm of Darkness DPS uptime, but it was good that there was a change made to keep it from ticking right away, which honestly just felt unfair. Is the fight too easy in its final iteration? For a 9th boss? Probably, but the Storm change needed to happen. Heroic could have used fixed spawns like mythic, so I don't think that's the angle you'd take. Multidotting was just too strong here. I think it was a good "fighting the titans" encounter like we wanted though. That question had been asked for years, especially after Algalon. Overall this fight has a ton of mechanics, and some did do some heavy damage early on (fire circles), it's just current gear makes this boss super easy. I just think it's the kind of fight where you have mechanics that are easy to deal with as a veteran guild, but can be very deadly if you haven't been playing this for years (like Golganeth + storm)

[Aggramar]

Even though it's deserving of a lot of discussion, I just want to say the nerfed version is how it should have turned out, and then everything would have been more reasonable. Blood DK requirement was too high, but I think needing a Corruption slow ring lock was fine. Couple mass dispels felt mandatory too, and Shining Force got to do something really useful. This is a fight where a few people had really hard jobs, and for the rest of us it was just hoping that the Ravenous Blaze + dot damage didn't kill us. Wake of Flame was a very good mechanic in the 2nd intermission, with an appropriately challenging spawn/speed that made you keep an eye on the boss + the adds at the same time. But yeah, the fight was definitely too brutal, and the nerfs addressed all the mechanical issues with the fight. Plus the phasing at 35 helped too. This fight was just painful, but the time to kill this and Argus were kind of appropriate considering its the final tier. Avatar was still worse than this guy, but both were a tad excessive.

[Argus]

This fight in its final iteration deserves glowing reviews as the best fight all expansion, but keep in mind, it took a hp nerf to get there. While the pre-immune change did come earlier to prevent class stacking, I firmly believe that the next round Agg and Argus nerfs should have come around then too, and not a couple of months later. If guilds are executing fights correctly enough, but wiping 400-800 times because they don't have the raid dps, that's a sign that changes need to occur. Our trinkets were already at 1000, and guilds end up extending instead of continuing to rekill for gear because Agg was such a wall (same with Avatar and KJ). What I'm trying to say here is there should be a philosophy shift towards being more liberal about nerfing boss hp. Granted, in the case of Archimonde, it can completely change the fight, but even its 1 orb iteration was still difficult to deal with. With Argus, you did have some thresholds you needed to meet, but you should be beating those anyway (1:50, 4:16) if youre going to beat the berserk. Still possible without of course, but 0% wipes in the last phase will probably happen unless you're bringing a warrior or two. I actually didn't mind the RP intermission on the fight because it gave players time to focus up after dodging many edges in P2, and get their cooldowns up for a big burn. It's good that Soulblight has a couple second activation time, but I think it could have stood to been a second later. Criticism aside, I really really like the final iteration of the fight because the DPS check is about where it should be for the final boss. (10% hp nerf would have put it closer to Archimonde status, 7.5% would have been fine too). 5% was the number being thrown around by a lot of guilds, and I think it's fine. There's no shame in hp nerfs, and I think they need to happen more frequently than they do, even in shorter tiers. I also don't mind the month of super easy kills in the upcoming prepatch either, to account for class changes. Lets everyone feel good about themselves. (Guldan got some last month nerfs too iirc to move things along for some guilds with lower ilvl/raid dps to make the 5th storm push). Melee did kind of have to spread along the wall for too much and too long for rages, but exercising patience should be apart of raiding too (like moving in with Kingaroth bombs up). So what do I actually like about this fight beyond that? It's a fight that makes everyone actually move their character and have awareness. Was a huge fan of the christmas tree cone strat for p1. There's very little actual rng in the fight, other than unfortunate rent soul spawns under the group, but it smartly had a 2 yard explosion radius, along with getting lucky on rage picks. Like it feels like this coordinated dance that the whole raid has to do, and its all one big burn phase on the boss. Maybe you could say that was the aim of the intermission with mythic KJ, but I just found this version a whole lot more fun. I heard rage/fear tick rates got nerfed a bit too, and that probably helped. Having a bear to roar for every spread helped a bunch too. Argus is a death titan, and I suppose this really worked in the whole death aspect well, considering you can still help out the team while dead. That's an interesting concept that could be explored in the future. I like how the tree was used to skip Sentence #2/#3, so all the resses were used up at once, so it didn't feel too easy. Also really cool how you're killing the boss at the end while ignoring the final module that fills up the room for an epic finish. Overall I think the fight made you a better raider, and I felt the same way about Archimonde's last phase too. Everyone in your raid was involved in some way too. That's what we should see out of a perfect final boss. Just be more liberal about hp adjustments.
I have a few fairly critical complaints.

Firstly, power growth during Legion was crazy. Most of the power a player could obtain came from our Artifacts. With a new patch would come new Artifact unlocks that would result in a huge spike in power for players. Outside of this, it felt like we might grow in power pretty slowly or inconsequentially with the exception of some tier sets.

To give an example. On my last kill on Mythic Goroth in ToS before AtBT opened, I did 1.4-1.5k dps which was a pretty decent parse. My first kill on Mythic Garothi World Breaker was 1.5k and my second was 1.6k. After that (as early as the third week of Mythic AtBT) I was over 2 million and this is more or less where I stayed for the rest of the tier. Best pull was 2.3 million.

My complaint here is that you gain a lot of power at the beginning of the tier when you get your new set bonus (which for Fury T21 was very strong) and you fully unlock your new artifact stuff, which is just worth so much dps. After this you're just replacing some 945 off pieces with 960s and the power of your character just doesn't really increase.

Garothi World Breaker is an example of a really early boss where my first two kills I was doing similar damage to my ToS numbers because I hadn't gotten all the new upgrades at that point. However, by the time you got past the first 5 bosses and were onto Imonar and beyond, your character had more or less peaked in power with only small upgrades.

This made farming bosses a huge pain in the butt.

Because we were only marginally stronger towards the end of the tier for bosses like Kin'goroth, Imonar, Coven, Aggramar and Argus, it means that killing these bosses on farm was only slightly easier then the first time we killed it on progression. In the past, farm bosses were a bit of fun where it wouldn't matter if a few people died to silly things, you'd just make fun of them for being bad and then you'd kill the boss anyway. In Legion, if a few people died it was a wipe and you had to start again.

I'm sure this isn't true for the absolute best guilds (top 250), but even Method complained about how hard it was to farm during Mythic Nighthold. They were used to going full out for a few weeks and then dropping back to 1 night a week farm after progression was over and they were unable to do this because of how hard it was to clear farm bosses.

Please, please, please return to a more steady growth in power over the course of the tier so that farming bosses is not a complete nightmare for regular mythic guilds. Farming bosses NEEDS to become easier over time otherwise it just eats up too much of your week, and you don't have enough time to progress on truly hard bosses like Argus.

I also had a problem with how loot was handled in Legion. By and large, I think that it takes far too long to get the items you need. The amount of loot that dropped was woefully insufficient. A guild like mine that raids with lowish hours but still wants to full clear on mythic should be able to do so, however we're still spending time on farming bosses that we've killed a dozen times because we're missing items. We'd love to use the built in skips (which are great btw) in order to get to our progression bosses faster. However even after 20+ kills on bosses like Mythic Twin Dogos we still have Agility classes missing their Best in Slot trinket. This is simply unacceptable.

You have a real opportunity to make Personal Loot a desirable loot system for guilds like mine. For the record, I do not think that ML should be removed for the guilds that wish to use it. However, I think that Blizzard should buff PL to make it desirable to use for the majority of guilds.

The way to do this is a) Drop more items per boss and b) Bad luck protection tied to an individual player's character. If a player has killed the boss 10 times and not received a certain item, then the game should be keeping track of this and that player should have a really high chance to get that item. Personal loot could finally bring bad luck protection to loot in World of Warcraft, which players have been calling out for since Vanilla. A player should have every item they need after killing a boss 10 times. Remember that you just can't spam farm bosses for items you want like you can mythic plus. If you kill a raid boss 10 times then that's 10 weeks. Two and a half months. You should have your items after that long a period of time so that we can skip more bosses and spend more time doing progression, which is the fun part of raiding.
This was my first expansion playing for more than 1 month after release and trying out raiding. I originally planned on quitting after getting AOTC for EN but the feeling I got after getting server-last cutting edge back in Jan 2017 was really exhilarating and hooked me into Mythic raiding ever since.

However, the more I raided the more issues started cropping up for me.

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The gameplay issues:


  • Most fights are quite easy as a melee dps due to less strenuous mechanics (e.g. M Agg was almost a patchwerk for melee). I had much more fun killing M Agg on my hunter than my DK.
  • I don't like how most raid encounters favor ranged over melee (e.g. M Argus for gazes). I think the main issue is that there are too many melee specs but most guilds rarely have more than 6. And of these limited slots, half of them are already reserved slots for warriors (executes), monks (phys debuff), DHs (magic debuff), rogues (soaks).


I'm not sure if these two concerns should be fixed or can be fixed this late into raid testing but I hope encounter designers can make more melee-friendly fights but also give more interesting mechanics for melee.

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And the social issues of raiding:


  • The roster boss is brutal and recruiting good players is hard if you don't have good ranks.
  • After my NH guild disbanded at 8/10M, I was only able to secure trials with good guilds on other servers. This meant that I have to pay $32 CAD per character (more than 1 week's worth of groceries for me) just for the privilege to sit on another guild's bench until I get my chance. As a result, I decided to unsubscribe until my friend's guild on my server got an opening for T21.


---

Finally, I'm frustrated that our guild's progress is currently hindered by our weakest players rather than strongest players. I wish it's possible for the raid (leader) to have more agency in assigning raid mechanics' responsibilities (e.g. Portal Keeper, High Command, Eonar give players more control on who's responsible for what). Right now, it's impossible to replace them this late into the expansion and with our terrible world rank (wonder why it took us so long post-nerf to kill Agg). I feel pigeonholed into either finding a new guild or keep wiping on Argus until all the stars align and our worst players don't get targeted by a single mechanic the entire fight, essentially turning it into a patchwerk fight for them.

I'm not asking for easier fights but I am concerned about the lack of control the group has on who gets what mechanic. Higher ranked guilds can easily replace their underperformers so their raid's skill variance is really low but lesser guilds are stuck with a huge gap between the best and worst players.

All in all, I find the hardest part of Mythic raiding is just getting a good guild. I don't know what can be done about this without sacrificing the integrity and prestige of Mythic raiding but I just want to let the devs know about the plight of trying to get cutting edge in a sub world 500 guild (we're actually closer to world 1200 now).
Personal Loot in Mythic Raiding: Healer Perspective

I'll try my best to relay this to Legion to stay on topic. Needless to say, I did every tier this expansion with a guild that ran a ML system. When I read that PL is replacing ML, I was actually really happy.

Why? It's because I'm a healer, and healers have always been the lowest priority to get loot in a ML system. Because DPS are the priority, I had to wait several weeks in the beginning of every tier before I got even an inkling of gear.

That sucks. It's even worse when all of the DPS in my raid team are fully mythic geared, while I end up never fully geared at the end of each tier. And it's even worse when I get blamed for any wipes due to low hps. There's only so much I can do with what I got, fellas.

In short, I'm happy that it's up to chance if any player gets loot or not. There's something to be said for the fact that the human factor is gone in loot distribution. I may actually have an opportunity to get some gear now.

Don't tell my raid team that I posted this btw :D
Keep mythic raiding hard. Don't listen to the people complaining that Mythic Mistress was too hard.

Delete factions. Factions are actually the worst mechanic I can possibly think of to put in an MMO. Split your players in half and tell them they're literally not allowed to play together? WTF?

Prizes for top 25 World guilds. Instead of putting Limit's heads on a pike just so guilds stop doing sales and account sharing, or reverting kills that were deemed too exploitative on your broken boss, reward top guilds for doing well and following the rules.

Maybe I sound harsh, but those were the main issues I had this expansion (that aren't already being addressed in BFA). The reality is overall it was a great expansion for raiding, with many great encounters. Great work.
Titanforging: I love having a reason to run almost all difficulties because of titanfroging. I DON'T like how high it can forge. Yes, it feels amazing to get that 1 piece you wanted really high. Now I will hardly ever get an upgrade for it unless it ridiculously forges higher again. Even with tier being gone, this will still be an issue. By the time I get to end bosses in Mythic raids, that gear doesn't mean anything to me anymore. Especially since I do Mythic raiding AND Mythic+, so I get crazy forges from there as well.

Mythic Raid Size: I think 20 is ok, but I wish it could still be flexible. Maybe 10-15 raid size. 10 seems a bit low, 15 seems fair, 20 is ok. I only point this out because newer or reformed guilds have a hard time getting 20 decent people to jump into the content. Those people get discouraged and leave, and makes it even harder for a new guild to get people to fill the needed spots.

Loot: I really do not like personal loot option. I don't think it would be that big of a deal if the item wasn't soulbound to me if I have a lower ilvl. If I get a ring that has crap stats and don't need, I can't give it away. This is already annoying in dungeons, it's going to be even a bigger of a headache in raiding. There will also be the problem of what's stopping the GM/Officers from saying hey give me that piece of loot or be kicked. Yeah, I can go to another guild, but I can see this happening to trials. If this change was to stop high end Mythic guilds from split-runs, that seems like a lousy excuse. The % base of guilds that actually do that is so small. Having the loot options we have now just seems fine. If a high end guild wants to do that, then let them? There are Mythic guilds who do personal loot for their runs and if works for them, it works. Why force the loot change for everyone when there options are there in the first place.
Group size is a problem. I understand the argument for a strict 20 man compared to 15 or 10,and the problems of a flexible size for mythic. However, something needs to change.

The hardest part of the most difficult content shouldn't be maintaining or filling a roster, it should be challenging mechanics. As a raid leader it isn't like I'm sitting back doing nothing. I advertised a lot this expansion on my realm forums, on Reddit, on MMO-Champion, on WoW Progress, and even in trade chat. I'm doing everything I can to fill and it isn't enough.

I know some will say that there isn't a problem because server transfers exist. I disagree. The logistics of getting multiple people to either pay for a transfer or reroll aren't easy. What's more, throwing money at a problem isn't a real solution.

I'm not advocating for a size change. I'm hoping once the PVP change goes through (I'm assuming that's causing the delay) which will allow more flexibility in the next round of server mergers, things will get better. If not, maybe this communities feature will be a solution.
near the beginning of the xpan i think class balance was too far spread

but near the end it was really, really good imo

i think there needs to be more of a linear way of boss progression, and by this i mean not having the first 9 bosses be a easy and slightly inclining trail then the 10th boss is a little bit of a climb up and the last boss is a damn MOUNTAIN cliff jump in difficulty

also require a certain skill it ok but require MULTIPLE of certain classes is annoying AF
06/06/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Dantés

Why? It's because I'm a healer, and healers have always been the lowest priority to get loot in a ML system. Because DPS are the priority, I had to wait several weeks in the beginning of every tier before I got even an inkling of gear.


Your a healer, the point of Mythic Raiding is progression not gear. If you can kill the bosses with the gear you have then healing isnt an issues, hints you dont need it. I've been healing mythic/heroic for 7 years. Ive come to understand whats best for the guild and you should too

Also please dont touch 20 man. 20 man is the perfect size. 15 is too small and would cause too much drama for a sudden change. Flex is awful. If people could reliably fill 25 then I dont see how 20 is even a problem.
I will throw my hat in with the titanforging crowd. Back in the day if you cleared a raid enough times you likely got what you wanted. Then new content came out and you graduated from that, there were new things to want. If it wasn't perfectly itemized then the ilvl carried it and we'd all have something to say because ultimately no class uses the same stats but deep down inside we knew it all evened out over time. Now you don't even want things from the raid you just got into because you can titanforge anything from anywhere on any difficulty. It makes such a relentless luck grind for the coveted perfect item. There is now every conceivable stat combo available for you to go get, you just have to bash your face into the Arcway a thousand times. This was compounded by the unavailability of sometimes 8 item slots due to mandatory tier and legendaries. What chance do you have of desiring something from a mythic raid in a world like this?

Soak mechanics come and go, I'm okay with them and find some interestingly done, that is until they send me out of range of the boss. I don't believe you should be more than 40 yards from a target if you're just going to wait there until a shiny circle goes away. Just staring at your feet. Thumb twiddling. Watching other people play while you listen for your timer to go off. Mythic fights that included such boring yet at the same time punishing mechanics:
Xavius - preventing spawns
Trilliax - robot chasing and food eating
Krosus - elemental swirlies
Elisande - falling disco balls
Gul'dan - baiting fel
Goroth - infernals
Kil'Jaeden - the end of the world
Garothi Worldbreaker - yet more swirlies
Portalkeeper - empty portal duty, although using mechanics with foresight was creative it was still extremely bland
If every one of these mechanics took place in casting range of the boss they'd still be difficult and important things to do, but I would also feel like I was still fighting something.

Immunities should be to save my life, not the raid. I should use it to prevent damage in a phase we're having trouble healing through, or be an undo-button for when I screw up and would otherwise die, or buy some time when !@#$ hits the fan. Not to literally negate a world ending effect. They're not skill testing abilities when you're simply assigned to use it X seconds into phase Y or else we start the fight again.
Titanforging should never be equal to base level mythic loot, don't know how anyone can defend that.

EN: way too easy, but understandable with guessing how much players would farm
ToV: great difficulty curve.
NH: great difficulty curve, although Starboy originally was egged up.
ToS: solid difficulty curve until KJ flew off the deepend, really loved Avatar.
ABT: okish difficulty curve, Agg could have been tuned tighter and would have made a great end boss, Argus being left to spamming attempts for RNG immuning chains was !@#$, using deaths as a resource in the fight was really neat though.

Can we just double check mythic endbosses that we don't get to test can't be cheesed by immunity stacking? That really left a sour taste after the last few raids.
Recruitment is what needs fixing. Please don't break mythic raid tuning and mechanics to solve roster woes. That's a bandaid that will hurt raids as a whole and then once rosters dwindle down people will STILL have roster issues even at 10 or 15 players cause the recruitment tools will still suck.


Not at all. At tier start is easy to find 20+ players. As time pass with many wipes, it become hard to find another people who is able to do mythic fight and join mid to last raid on mythic, with many wipes ahead. in sometime, no people is available at all.

My raid team was 2 months with 18-19 person stucked in first 2 antorus mythic boss, until raid leader set see you on BFA. 2 Months trying to recruit people and none available or willing to enter a group with many wipes to do. At this point, no reward could make more people to join you group and will be more easy have a tool to make mythic flex.

As i said before, it could be a NPC to change mythic 20man to mythic flex and less rewards. We could have 2 mounts reward in Mythic 20man and only 1 on Mythic flex. Achieve and xmog for Mythic 20man kill and no achieve nor xmog for Mythic flex for example.
The 20 person requirement has been severely hindering to myself and the raiding guilds I've been apart this expansion. It's not for lack of recruitment, the player pool, especially for early morning/niche schedule guilds the people just doesn't exist within reason.

I often read that guilds will still have all the same recruiting issues with 10 man or X man raiding instead of 20 man raiding, but it's simply an absurd statement! 10 < 20 or X < 20

Please, consider reducing the player requirement for mythic raiding to anything less than 20 or making it flex.
Your a healer, the point of Mythic Raiding is progression not gear. If you can kill the bosses with the gear you have then healing isnt an issues, hints you dont need it. I've been healing mythic/heroic for 7 years. Ive come to understand whats best for the guild and you should too
We're simply two different types of raiders. If I'm raiding in the top 100 world, I'm not playing for loot. I'm there to kill bosses and push for that top rank with some of the best player's in the game. Gear would be a means to an end--a tool used to get that reward of ranking or personal glory.

But I'm not in a top 100 guild--I'm in one that won't get CE until months into a tier. Is it best to give all gear to DPS at the start of a tier? Sure. Several weeks into a tier? Maybe not so much--especially if you're in a guild that won't even get CE.

For the guilds that use ML effectively and raid for progression, I can understand why they don't want it to go. But I raid for loot, plain and simple. If you think I'm being selfish, that's your opinion. Do I need the gear? Maybe not. But I have as much of a right to it as the DPS next to me.

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