Night Elves and Girl Power

Story Forum
I am mostly a Night Elf RPer, and even my Non-elf characters tend to be bad @ss ladies. I have always subscribed to the idea that Night Elves are a Matriarchal race, evident of a nearly all Female army, having female leaders for nearly their entire history, their faith centered around a Goddess, and their clear Drow inspired aesthetic, who is also a Matriarchal race.

While I believe this point to be inarguably true, it doesn't stop people from trying. Just the other day, I heard this from another RPer, OOCly:
"Women are weaker than men. Female warriors will never be as strong."

I raise you the Norse Shield Maidens: Such as Hlagherth, Queen of Norway.

I raise you the Celtic Queen Boudicca, who topples the Roman Capital of Britain.

I raise you the Onna-bugeisha, female samurai who existed in a very male dominated culture, and still managed to be major figures in various Japanese civil wars.

I Raise you Artimesia the first of Caria, who raised several Greek city states to the ground during the Greco-Persian War.

I raise you Ching Shih, who went from a Brothel worker to a pirate admiral of 300 ships and terrorized the entire coast of east Asia for years.

I am no activist or SJW, but it always suprises me how many people are so resistant to the idea of a female dominated culture in a fantasy setting. Or just the idea of women being warriors. Very strong and willful women tend to be hated by the average RPer, ICly and OOCly. I am curious if anyone else has had this experience?

Note that I am not accusing anyone of misogyny or sexism, simply noting my experience while roleplaying strong, willful women versus roleplaying a strong and willful men. I have done both, and where a strong, willful man is usually charismatic and liked, women experience a lot more resistance and disdain.
But RP forums are that way———>

If you would like to discuss the female leadership and how they are portrayed that goes here. Not how you play your character or it’s backstory.
^What he said
Unless you are looking for lore information that would help you RP better I suppose.
There are a lot of RPers on this forum who may have something to say about both. Nice try attempting to derail my post, boo.
06/04/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Akiyass
There are a lot of RPers on this forum who may have something to say about both. Nice try attempting to derail my post, boo.

Posting things that do not belong to a part of forum is against the forum rules, they are not derailing your topic, they are giving one advice.

If anything, I suggest you post your topic here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/1011637/
But this topic touches on Night Elves and the concept of Matriarchal cultures in fantasy. It belongs here, thus not against the rules.
Hm. A matriarchal society that is constantly being portrayed as victims and incompetent by Blizzard, all to prop up the male-ruled human kingdom..

HMMM.
06/04/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Ivalesse
Hm. A matriarchal society that is constantly being portrayed as victims and incompetent by Blizzard, all to prop up the male-ruled human kingdom..

HMMM.


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM XD

Yeah, I didn't want to come out and say it, but really...
06/04/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Akiyass
I am no activist or SJW, but it always suprises me how many people are so resistant to the idea of a female dominated culture in a fantasy setting. Or just the idea of women being warriors. Very strong and willful women tend to be hated by the average RPer, ICly and OOCly. I am curious if anyone else has had this experience?


This seems like the crux of your post. Your main point.

I'll bite and say on ED, I have not experienced too much of this. Then again, being and RPing mostly males I wouldn't have this experience. A few friends of had issues with it, yes, though I cannot comment enough to make an argument or say there is a trend on the issue.

However, that said this question would be best for Worlds End Tavern, the RP forum. We're not really talking lore, rather RP experiences regardless of what the lore states. It is a separate issue all together that can exist independent of the lore.

Lore wise, just to play along, you'd be hard pressed to find passages or explicit statements saying that one is more powerful than the other. Perhaps opinion in a vague part of quest text, but that is your best bet. Our best bet is just speculation that yes, on average males tend to be stronger than females, but that is not to say that females can't be as strong, if not stronger, than males.
06/04/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Abrahof
We're not really talking lore, rather RP experiences regardless of what the lore states.


I stated an RP experience that I have and asked if anyone else feels that way, but that doesn't mean we are not talking about lore here. Iva showcases this by expressing seemingly displeasure with Blizzard's portrayal of the Night Elves, who despite their experience, are often depicted as incompetent and usually seems to be damsels for the rest of the male dominated Alliance to rescue.

So, not only am I seeing gender bias in the player base but also blizzard themselves... Which is an aspect of the convsersation that belongs here on the Story Forums.
06/04/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Akiyass
Iva showcases this by expressing seemingly displeasure with Blizzard's portrayal of the Night Elves, who despite their experience, are often depicted as incompetent and usually seems to be damsels for the rest of the male dominated Alliance to rescue.

So, not only am I seeing gender bias in the player base but also blizzard themselves... Which is an aspect of the convsersation that belongs here on the Story Forums.


In which should have been your main argument. That Blizzard portrays Night Elves as weak, inferior, in the damsel in distress stereotype, etc. and if anyone else feels the same or has seen excerpts that support that claim, not that if anyone has experienced it in RP.

The answer is then, of course, yes. Blizzard has done a very poor job at portraying Night Elves since WC3, and has only gotten worse since. However as stated, I do not think there is any explicit material that would support that. Rather, Blizzard has gone out of their way at times explaining that the sexes are generally equal within the game both in status and strength, or at least competence. However they do a very poor job showing that. See Tyrande as the best example of that. So much so that we see Shandris as this icon of what should be, even though he has had hardly 10% of the screen time Tyrande has. She does a good job at portraying the strength of the female Night Elves, by not having any development or attention which through it all, only makes the situation worse.

The only real argument for is that she's one of the hardest world bosses, period. Not even the weekly epic quest bosses in Legion are as tough, or nearly as tough, as her.
06/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Abrahof
In which should have been your main argument. That Blizzard portrays Night Elves as weak, inferior, in the damsel in distress stereotype, etc. and if anyone else feels the same or has seen excerpts that support that claim, not that if anyone has experienced it in RP.


I'll determine what my main "argument" should or should not be, thank you.

06/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Abrahof
The answer is then, of course, yes. Blizzard has done a very poor job at portraying Night Elves since WC3, and has only gotten worse since. However as stated, I do not think there is any explicit material that would support that. Rather, Blizzard has gone out of their way at times explaining that the sexes are generally equal within the game both in status and strength, or at least competence. However they do a very poor job showing that. See Tyrande as the best example of that. So much so that we see Shandris as this icon of what should be, even though he has had hardly 10% of the screen time Tyrande has. She does a good job at portraying the strength of the female Night Elves, by not having any development or attention which through it all, only makes the situation worse. The only real argument for is that she's one of the hardest world bosses, period. Not even the weekly epic quest bosses in Legion are as tough, or nearly as tough, as her.


While I agree, Shandris is underused as a lore character, she does get quite a bit of screentime in BfA, as well as explicit material currently exists, stating that she is the greatest Archer on Azeroth. Not "One of the greatest"... THE GREATEST. Not to mention her scenes in the Novel Tides of War, where when she showed up in Theramore, the Horde Leaders nearly soiled themselves.

But we never see this in game, and the sources I just listed a fleeting. In totally, I would give her a page, maybe a page and a half of spotlight in the entire Tides of War novel... It's a real bummer.
She is getting a bit of screen time initially, yes. We can hope that it is a trend that will continue. The optimist would be joyful and looking forward to the rest of her stories. The pessimist would be worried that her character takes a nose dive after being seen what has been done with Tyrande.

Your example enforces the point i had brought up. Blizzard often tells us one thing, but shows something very different.

Btw
I'll determine what my main "argument" should or should not be, thank you.


The way in which you form or present your argument can dramatically alter how others view it, as seen in this very thread. The difference between RP experiences, and lore issues. Each of which have their own respective forums where topics belong. Argue how or what you want, but know there are times and places for each.
06/04/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Abrahof
The way in which you form or present your argument can dramatically alter how others view it, as seen in this very thread. The difference between RP experiences, and lore issues. Each of which have their own respective forums where topics belong. Argue how or what you want, but know there are times and places for each.


But the two are often connected. RPers are generally more lore savvy than none RPers. It's just how it is... Perhaps you should recognize that for yourself instead of making gross demands that I should change.
after reading the topic name i can't get the ninja turtles movie theme out of my head

https://youtu.be/VFsTr0kGAqU?t=54
Male Night Elfs men are physically stronger and better warriors than Female Night Elfs. Thats the whole reason why their army was generally male before the Sundering.

Sentinals only became a thing because the male population largely became druids after the Sundering leaving a vacuum that needed to be filled.

Also they are not matriarchal men and women are equal in night elf society.
06/04/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Bronnix
Male Night Elfs men are physically stronger and better warriors than Female Night Elfs. Thats the whole reason why their army was generally male before the Sundering.

Sentinals only became a thing because the male population largely became druids after the Sundering leaving a vacuum that needed to be filled.

Also they are not matriarchal men and women are equal in night elf society.


Not true. They had a few men in positions of Leadership before the Sundering, such as Jarrod and Ravencrest, but the armies was still a majority female. We see this in the form of ghosts at Blackrook Hold.

Furthermore, Druidism was a thing even prior to the Sundering, so it doesn't make sense in that regard either. It is a misconception to say that most male Kaldorei are druids. In fact, it is a minority.

While men and women Kaldorei have equal rights, that does not mean they are not matriarchal. Most men are stay at home dads. They take care of the children, and usually take up a craft, like cooking, tailoring, or basketweaving. Whereas women are revered, the female form is noble as it is true in the Goddess's image. That is why a Majority of the Clergy are female, as well as the Sentinels are mostly female, because Elune is also the Night Warrior.
What's this have to do with the lore? If you want to talk about your RP experiences than there's a proper forum just for that.

06/04/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Akiyass
Not true. They had a few men in positions of Leadership before the Sundering, such as Jarrod and Ravencrest, but the armies was still a majority female. We see this in the form of ghosts at Blackrook Hold.

Game mechanics which shouldn't be used as justification for anything else. There are times when the Hold is filled with male npcs while other times its mixed.

06/04/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Akiyass
Furthermore, Druidism was a thing even prior to the Sundering, so it doesn't make sense in that regard either. It is a misconception to say that most male Kaldorei are druids. In fact, it is a minority.

It was a thing but it was something that was looked down upon and seen as more of a fringe movement. It was only after the events of the WotA that Druidism was seen as it is now. Also, yes male Kaldorei were the majority of Druids for a long time.

06/04/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Akiyass
While men and women Kaldorei have equal rights, that does not mean they are not matriarchal. Most men are stay at home dads. They take care of the children, and usually take up a craft, like cooking, tailoring, or basketweaving. Whereas women are revered, the female form is noble as it is true in the Goddess's image.

Nice headcanon.

06/04/2018 01:41 PMPosted by Akiyass
While I agree, Shandris is underused as a lore character, she does get quite a bit of screentime in BfA, as well as explicit material currently exists, stating that she is the greatest Archer on Azeroth. Not "One of the greatest"... THE GREATEST. Not to mention her scenes in the Novel Tides of War, where when she showed up in Theramore, the Horde Leaders nearly soiled themselves.

Again headcanon because there is nothing that states this as true and I'm pretty sure you're trolling
06/04/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Ivalesse
Hm. A matriarchal society that is constantly being portrayed as victims and incompetent by Blizzard, all to prop up the male-ruled human kingdom..

HMMM.


While I certainly agree with you on many anti-Horde things I dont agree with this. Many male-ruled kingdoms have ended up destroyed, hell don't forget it was Terenas' son that did him in.
06/04/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Bronnix
Male Night Elfs men are physically stronger and better warriors than Female Night Elfs. Thats the whole reason why their army was generally male before the Sundering.

Sentinals only became a thing because the male population largely became druids after the Sundering leaving a vacuum that needed to be filled.

Also they are not matriarchal men and women are equal in night elf society.


Didn't the Nelves start losing Ashenvale hard when they reintegrated the male population back into the military? I seem to remember the Nelves being successful in their military endeavors when gender segregation still existed.

Oh well. That's why us Light loving humans had to civilize them anyways.

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