Healers and Tanks

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Hey there guess I'll wiegh in from a tanks perspective.
I regularly do keys ranging from 20-22 for fun and people in my guild push much higher. In a raid setting my guild has had ABT on farm for some time now and we regularly clear the raid in about 5 hours or less depending on us trying out a new strat.
I say this not to brag but so I seem to not be talking out my butt when I make my comments.

Healer dps: I absolutely love the idea of increasing healer dps accross the board so that a healer going all out could be 80 percent or better of a similarly geared player but it should come at a cost. When a tank is going for that "dps parse" or all out play he sacrifices a lot of his own survival to make sure it happens. A blood dk will spam his Deathstrikes to chain then together for a boost but he will no longer time them for clutch heals or good pacing of incoming dmg. A bear druid will spend his rage on dmg and not iron fur. It's the same with all tanks, if you want to do dmg you sacrifice something. I would love to see that same mentality for healers in both raids and dungeons. Let the healers really chunk through that Mana bar if they want to push dps numbers, give them options or abilities that they can use at thier own peril for more dps. Just be aware that it is the same trade off that others have, be consistent or dip into dps at the loss of something else, namely Mana imo.
Tank dmg: As far as tanks doing dps or healing I generally enjoy both aspects of being able to heal myself ( and this is only me) and pump out about 1/2 or less a similarly geared player can and should be doing. The fact that blood dks heal so much is not as big an issue when you realize they only heal themselves and they generally take more dmg upfront than any other tank. DKs don't replace healers for raiders, just dungeon healers in either trival content or where the dmg is simply avoidable. And let's face it, if it's avoidable or trivial content what would a healer do anyway?
Pretty much the only FF games I've ever liked are 1/2 and 4. I made it to level 49 in FFXIV before my sub ran out, but if that's true then I might give it another go.


Yes. It's true. Healers are expected to DPS in every instance, from the time they are level 15 and get to their first dungeon to Savage Deltscape.

Which wouldn't be an issue, but tanks and DPS in FFXIV are no smarter or less likely to do things like, "Cooldowns? What are cooldowns? I have to use those? This is just a 4 man!" Which makes it a giant PITA to DPS AND keep them alive.

Which is probably a big part of why it annoys me. The other reason being, of course, that Healer DPS in FFXIV doesn't approach the smoothness and engagement of Disc DPS in WoW. Or, well, even Resto Shaman/Pally. Like, there's not a lot of feedback. You're DPSing, but you feel like you're getting nowhere. And since it's against the TOS to use a meter, it's hard to tell where you are.

But I digress.

And that's the whole point of this thread. Healers' damage toolkits should be buffed so that they provide competitive damage when the need/opportunity arises. It's not mandatory and most levels of play, but in the places it is, it feels good for them to contribute properly. Holy pally and resto druid damage in Legion is a good example of this: when they know how to use their damage kit the run becomes a lot faster and smoother. You don't have to do damage if you don't want to, but why should it be taken from the people who do?


You realize we would have to give something up to gain that, right? There is no way they could increase our DPS without doing something to either nerf our healing or our suvivability (which is already awful for Holy Priests). It would unbalance PvP way too much.
06/24/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriél
You realize we would have to give something up to gain that, right? There is no way they could increase our DPS without doing something to either nerf our healing or our suvivability (which is already awful for Holy Priests). It would unbalance PvP way too much.


Yeah, they can. Resto shaman already has it on Lava Burst. Make damage spells cost mana and buff their damage so that you can do at least 50% of a dps spec's damage (unlike the ~25-30% most healers do now). The tradeoff then becomes do I need this mana to heal later, or will doing damage now negate the need for heals? Right now, there is little to no tradeoff for a healer pressing a dps button. If you add that mana cost then you're forcing a decision.
06/24/2018 01:41 PMPosted by Stormaker
06/24/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriél
You realize we would have to give something up to gain that, right? There is no way they could increase our DPS without doing something to either nerf our healing or our suvivability (which is already awful for Holy Priests). It would unbalance PvP way too much.


Yeah, they can. Resto shaman already has it on Lava Burst. Make damage spells cost mana and buff their damage so that you can do at least 50% of a dps spec's damage (unlike the ~25-30% most healers do now). The tradeoff then becomes do I need this mana to heal later, or will doing damage now negate the need for heals? Right now, there is little to no tradeoff for a healer pressing a dps button. If you add that mana cost then you're forcing a decision.


Agreed, thats what we need. Add a high mana cost to dps spells and then we can put this whole healers need to dps mentality to bed. Cause there is no way a healer would waste all of their mana dpsing.
Your argument isn't really valid for BfA since tanks got MASSIVELY nerfed both in mitigation and DPS.

In Legion, yes, we are OP in world PvP. In BfA, we are undertuned if anything.
06/24/2018 09:03 AMPosted by Bodytriangle
I agree. Healer's role should be expanded on, and less focus should be put on healer dps. I think one way to do this is increase constant damage (dots, auras) that groups simply can't survive with out proper heals. This would make it so healers wouldn't have time to dps, and groups wouldn't survive without a healer. Another way is to reduce other roles (Tanks and DPS) self heals and DR abilities. This got way to crazy in Legion with some tanks out healing healers. Also Blizzard could just straight up reduce healers dps buy a lot (only in dungeons or all together). Healers shouldn't be required to dps at all. We play healers for a reason. Let's not make the same mistake FFXIV did.
That absolutely guarantees that as time goes on in a given tier fewer healers will be taken. Better gear for healers, and better play by healers is 'rewarded' by more being benched/forced into alt DPS specs. This won't be fixed by making them heal harder. It can only be fixed by making their non-healing contributions more valuable, or by hokey mechanics like only healers having tank-saving CDs and putting enough 'insta-kill no matter your gear' attacks in that the Blizzard Approved number of healers must be present to cover those hits with CDs, and I can't imagine the player-base taking that well.
06/24/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriél

Yes. It's true. Healers are expected to DPS in every instance, from the time they are level 15 and get to their first dungeon to Savage Deltscape.

Which wouldn't be an issue, but tanks and DPS in FFXIV are no smarter or less likely to do things like, "Cooldowns? What are cooldowns? I have to use those? This is just a 4 man!" Which makes it a giant PITA to DPS AND keep them alive.

Which is probably a big part of why it annoys me. The other reason being, of course, that Healer DPS in FFXIV doesn't approach the smoothness and engagement of Disc DPS in WoW. Or, well, even Resto Shaman/Pally. Like, there's not a lot of feedback. You're DPSing, but you feel like you're getting nowhere. And since it's against the TOS to use a meter, it's hard to tell where you are.
Play a Scholar. On level level dungeons, let the fairy heal and just DPS. On high level ones, DoT the main target and call it a day. From what I saw as long as they saw SCH coloured debuffs on the main target, players assumed you were DPSing.

I can see how the 'healers must DPS' attitude could be a pain if you were playing a white mage though. Scholars were made for doing both at once, the others not so much.
06/24/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Sharrow
That absolutely guarantees that as time goes on in a given tier fewer healers will be taken. Better gear for healers, and better play by healers is 'rewarded' by more being benched/forced into alt DPS specs.

A progression group may often run with an extra healer in their comp to account for that occasional mistake so they can guarantee that a larger pool of their damage dealers remain alive to secure the kill.

But as a fight transitions to farm, those same groups will drop a healer in favor of another damage dealer in order to push the fight faster but also keep it engaging and fun for the heal squad.

So that's nothing new and it happens even today without changing anything.

06/24/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Sharrow
'insta-kill no matter your gear' attacks

We've been there, done that and Blizzard agreed they didn't care for that model. It also puts a heavier emphasis on favor the class and not the person as well which most organized groups would rather do without.
i'd rather not see this game turn into ff14 where outgoing damage is so low the fights are balanced around healers doing half the damage of DPS to meet dps checks and the healing being neglected.
especially since healers have absolutely boring damage rotations in both games.
06/24/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Reimmi
i'd rather not see this game turn into ff14 where outgoing damage is so low the fights are balanced around healers doing half the damage of DPS to meet dps checks and the healing being neglected.
especially since healers have absolutely boring damage rotations in both games.


Yes, it’s much better if healers just get benched in the endgame as you start to have raids/instances on farm. /sarcasm

Coming from a former MW that has been repeatedly going into a DPS spec or going on DPS alts to stay relevant.
06/24/2018 05:02 PMPosted by Sharrow
Play a Scholar. On level level dungeons, let the fairy heal and just DPS. On high level ones, DoT the main target and call it a day. From what I saw as long as they saw SCH coloured debuffs on the main target, players assumed you were DPSing.

I can see how the 'healers must DPS' attitude could be a pain if you were playing a white mage though. Scholars were made for doing both at once, the others not so much.


There's a reason why, after I leveled WHM to 70, I went and leveled Scholar. I agree with you that it's just better, all the way around, with the DPS + healing thing (although Eos never heals the tank enough for me to stop worrying, but I do random roulettes and randoms are generally awful tanks). But, again, even Scholar doesn't approach the level of "feedback" we get here in WoW, so I find it annoying.

I always feel like I'm accomplishing something when I hit Penance, or use Lava Burst, or drop Moonfire, etc. Intellectually, I understand that I'm really not, but the animations, sounds, and spell graphics in general make it feel like I am. That's something that WoW does really well. I feel rewarded for DPSing in WoW, even on healers that don't necessarily have to DPS. I often feel penalized for DPSing when I'm a White Mage or, god forbid, an Astrologian (seriously the worst DPSing experience ever).

So on that note, I tend to be more enthused to DPS as a Healer in WoW. I just don't want us to end up in the situation where healers are screamed at in 5 mans because they aren't DPSing (or aren't DPSing a lot). Cause that's a big reason why I don't have a sub to FFXIV right now.

06/25/2018 08:43 AMPosted by Jateam
Yes, it’s much better if healers just get benched in the endgame as you start to have raids/instances on farm. /sarcasm

Coming from a former MW that has been repeatedly going into a DPS spec or going on DPS alts to stay relevant.


The only reason healers don't get benched in FFXIV is because there are only ever 2 of them in any group. Having everything fixed to an 8 man, oftentimes with debuffs/mechanics specifically targeting healers, requiring one or more to be out of range, etc, means that most groups can't sit a healer, even if they would rather bring another DPS.

If group size wasn't limited to 8 people, with two healers, you better bet healers would be being sat, because outgoing damage simply isn't high enough to require more than two healers (honestly, the damage alone doesn't even require two most of the time), and bringing a pure DPS is still better than bringing a healer.
06/22/2018 12:34 PMPosted by Stormaker
06/22/2018 06:18 AMPosted by Fuzzywuzz
If you want to do damage as a healer, play Disc priest. Blizzard has already addressed this.

The thing is healers are meant to spend their time healing....not dpsing, lol. Tanks are constantly dpsing so they can continue to generate threat. Do people not understand the game?


That's a terrible mentality, and falls right in line with the people who also say that tanks should be able to heal themselves. It's nonsense. This isn't classic. pigeonholing people into only being able to do a single thing is lazy design and makes for boring gameplay. Tanks should have some healing and be able to self heal against trivial content. Healers should be able to do damage near a tank's when they don't need to heal on trivial content.

And no, Blizzard has not said that if you want to do damage to play a disc priest. They gave every healer a damage toolkit for a reason. It's meant to be used outside of solo questing, and it should be tuned to matter.

06/22/2018 06:45 AMPosted by Remidy
I am a healer. Not a dps. I enjoy healing. I mean yeah I will dps if I am able. But its not my goal to dps in a group setting.


No, your goal isn't to dps. Your goal is to keep your party alive. Then, if no one is in immediate danger of dying, your goal is to do whatever you can to make the dungeon go smoother. Most of the time that means doing damage when people don't need healing. Other times it means using your utility spells to prevent damage. Think of it this way: every point of damage you do is a point of healing you don't need to do later, because the enemy is dead faster.


Pretty sure I said I will dps when I am able...I never said I should just sit and heal if no one is in immediate danger. I cc and do anything I can to make the dungeon or raid go smoothly. That is just smart play. But thanks for telling me what I need to do. I simply stated that I prefer to heal over anything else. That's all. Instead you chose to assume I do not do those things. I will do anything to ensure victory to my group. If it makes my job easier of course I would do those things.

I just don't think other people should expect a healer to do great dps compared to tanks or dps. Or say this healer is bad because the damage they contributed was so bad. Which with so many factors going on we just cannot deal damage at times. Some tanks are like paper and need constant baby sitting. Lots of variables come into play. I think our dps is fine. And do not really see the need for a boost.
So here's the thing. Wow is designed around the holy trinity. Tanks, heals, dps. I think someone said it earlier that everyone will twist this thread to their own narrative and that's true but the fact of the matter is Blizzard designed the game to have tanks and healers.

The fact that tanks do more dps doesn't meant anything, their role is damage/mitigation. They are meant to dps constantly.

Healers have the option to dps, albeit, they will not be a top DPS.

Way back when tanks were just managing threat meters, that gameplay changed because people complained about overall damage output. Healers only healer, people complained about damage output. It's in way better spot than you're making it out to be by questioning everything in life. Lol.
06/22/2018 04:30 AMPosted by Sharrow
I have no idea, but low healer damage is quite a pain if you're trying to level one by questing. What's more, healer damage is useful in the higher m+ runs, and that makes low healer damage feel bad, and makes low damage or 'you can heal, or you can DPS' specs feel bad too.


Paladin, Druid and Disc Priest damage is all quite solid, Pali and Disc even more so in BFA. Even in higher M+ runs very seldom does a healer have to "only heal" for any extended amount of time. When you have a group that knows what they are doing, a good healer of any spec will have plenty of opportunities to contribute meaningful amounts of DPS.

Yes not all healers are created equal when it comes to the amount of DPS they can do, but that is true for all classes. Tanks as well have a large disparity in how much DPS they can put out while still doing their job.

The way I look at it, tanks and healers doing substantial DPS is almost like a secondary benefit, just like some DPS specs have solid self healing, (Aff Lock) or a plethora of defensives (Rogue).
06/24/2018 01:41 PMPosted by Stormaker
06/24/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Tiriél
You realize we would have to give something up to gain that, right? There is no way they could increase our DPS without doing something to either nerf our healing or our suvivability (which is already awful for Holy Priests). It would unbalance PvP way too much.


Yeah, they can. Resto shaman already has it on Lava Burst. Make damage spells cost mana and buff their damage so that you can do at least 50% of a dps spec's damage (unlike the ~25-30% most healers do now). The tradeoff then becomes do I need this mana to heal later, or will doing damage now negate the need for heals? Right now, there is little to no tradeoff for a healer pressing a dps button. If you add that mana cost then you're forcing a decision.


The two major problems that I think you would see with making healer DPS competitive but cost a lot of mana are

(1) There's a huge discrepancy between mana management in an M+, where boss fights are usually less than 2 minutes, and you can find a way to drink constantly as needed and a raid boss where you could have a 12 minute fight with a lot of intensive healing and mana management needed. Make the DPS really expensive, and you could easily make it so you can't afford to burn any mana on DPS in a raid fight, even during a period where no healing is really required. If you can't weave 0 mana or low mana cost DPS spells in during raids because of this type of change, you could well have GCDs/periods where the most optimal thing to do is stand around and cast nothing, which obviously isn't good gameplay/class design at all.

(2) If DPS is limited by mana usage, healers are still going to end up doing way less DPS than DPS even if they have higher burst, because they won't have the sustain. That risks actually reducing the amount of time that healers can spend DPSing in a M+ potentially to less than what it is now too, because you need the mana/drinking time.

In addition to that, if you make healer DPS significantly mana limited, there will still be complaints about healer spec leveling/soloing, because they will have to drink between pulls (especially now with mana drinks cut in half), which for many people is even more awful than low DPS.

For it to work without negative side effects (especially the raid vs M+ variance), the only way they could really do it is for healers to have either some type of "DPS stance" which ups the DPS and mana cost or to have seperate low DPS/low mana cost and high DPS/high mana cost DPS spells. I can't see them wanting to do that, given the amount of spell/action bar bloat it would add.

Alternately, why do healers need a downside to have say 70% of the DPS output of a DPS? Isn't the downside that you're doing 0 healing while casting DPS spells (obviously excluding Disc)? Is that really different than a tank significantly reducing their survivability by using a max DPS vs max active mitigation rotation?
06/26/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Tiberria
Alternately, why do healers need a downside to have say 70% of the DPS output of a DPS? Isn't the downside that you're doing 0 healing while casting DPS spells (obviously excluding Disc)? Is that really different than a tank significantly reducing their survivability by using a max DPS vs max active mitigation rotation?


I think because we might end up in the same situation that existed with Enh Shammies during ToT. You'd sit a healer and bring an extra Enh Shammy for their healing CDs and relatively high damage, despite them being melee. It was particularly useful on the dog fight, if you'll recall.
06/22/2018 10:42 PMPosted by Quietguy
06/22/2018 10:16 PMPosted by Gurthäng
Because in the good old arena days, when healers could do damage, teams with healers had a huge advantage against teams with no healers, specialy in 2s.


Fair enough. But this isn't a PVP argument. I didn't make that clear and that is on me. But now that i have, why should what happens in PVP affect PVE?

Because ppl in pvp would !@#$% about not being able to dps like they do in pve.
What about a small group wide DPS boost? Where it's strong enough to highly favor the holy trinity group comp but small enough where it's not worth stacking.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum