The Group Finder Tool Needs a Sales Filter

General Discussion
Problem 1: The group finder is saturated with many groups competing for player attention. This is the case with both ABT and M+15’s. To some players: there are a disproportionate amount of carry groups for gold vs regular groups.

So why does it feel like the group finder is filled with carry groups? So, most people put some item level restriction on their group. When you fall below that requirement you are unable to see those group. No reasonable/capable carry group is going to restrict the item level of a potential client. So as a low item level character you are seeing groups that either: forgot to put an item level requirement, don’t have the ability to require a higher item level and people who don’t care about your item level.

Why do some people get frustrated when they see other players (not breaking any rules) while advertising carries for gold? There are a few possible reasons: they are frustrated that they can’t find a group for the activity that they are interested in or they keep getting declined, they are insulted that someone is asking them to pay for the option to join a group and/or they don’t have the gold or means to acquire the gold for the activity.

Is group finder filled with only carry groups? No.

Are there more gold carry groups at this point in the expansion? Why? Yes. The people who run these groups do it for basic in-game economic reasons. I personally, would not play WoW as much as I do if I was not involved in gold runs. Additionally, the barrier to entry is low. You and a few of your friends can carry a 15 right now (maybe)!

Problem 2: Some players are breaking Blizzard’s code of conduct by reporting legitimate gold only sales groups.

So, what are people doing when they are frustrated with the amount of people selling runs in group finder or trade chat? Many are choosing to report them in hopes to squelching the activity. Many of them are breaking Blizzard’s code of conduct in this action as they are “ falsely reporting another player with the sole intent of restricting their gameplay” which SHOULD “result in penalties.”

Problem 3: The Blizzard GM team has elected to cease overturning silences related to group finder. I have personally been silenced over thirty times; these silences have been overturned more than thirty times. Recently, the department has decided that they will now longer overturn silences related to group finder groups. This will likely open the floodgates for harassment. Players can now freely grief other players and (even after zero wrong doing is discovered) the GM supervisors have made it clear that they will not over turn these silences (https://imgur.com/rVyFd4j). The system is broken, the problems are clear, the abuse is obvious.

Hopefully this thread can lead to some changes in how the GM staff is dealing with this issue and/or senior leadership can take the initiative to implement in-game systems changes.

Proposal 1: implement a sales filter in the group finder. The game has changed since group finder was implemented. Once upon a time, you were able to find people for your groups in trade chat. These days it is anomaly to see people posting “LFM” outside of group finder. The WoW token allows for cross realm carries to take place without leaving out the low/medium population realms. A sales filter allows for the player base that is opposed to sales in any and all capacity (legit or otherwise) to hide this market when they are trying to find a group. This filter would be a simple box to check when creating the group. If Blizzard did not want to introduce new jargon they would name this box “trade.” The meaning would be obvious. A group might look something like this: [trade] Maw 15 carries (gold only). The trade should be auto enabled, and players would have the ability to opted out.

Proposal 2: Enforce the rules where they are being broken. If legitimate activities are taking place in game “supported” or not: they should be allowed to continue, unencumbered. The inability to conduct trades of these nature breaks the immersion of anyone trying to enjoy the MMO experience where players of all different skills can exchange goods and services freely. Players are activity breaking the Code of Conduct (https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/42673) when they falsely report groups selling for gold, with the intention of restricting gameplay. The gaming experience is worse for everyone involved. There should be punishment for these players (so they might learn). For many a silence or two is a clear abuse. For me personally, it has been the equivalent to online harassment. I cannot play the game the way I want (while breaking no rules) without being harassed with these reports and penalties.

OP Context: I am the leader of a one to one Argus carry group (so we don't pug people for our kills). I stream these runs on twitch.tv/kevinramm. I have made over 125M gold in this tier alone (community support btw). I have personally transitioned to doing more Spellwing carry giveaways on stream. While promoting this I have never been silenced with such consistency. I am giving it away for free, surly that’s okay? I really hope someone at Blizzard can take the hint and recognize that this system is broken and the enforcement is bad. The sales/advertisement filter is a step, but the GM department needs to get on the same page with the rule book and the companies financial interest (I have personally conducted actions that directly led to the sale thousands of dollars in WoW tokens). We have over a hundred people that currently (or have in the past) sold this or other in-game services for gold. I wrote this post because, after my discussions with Blizzard supervisors (via email and phone), it has become apparent that they are leaning in the direction of making (what I believe) is the wrong decision. My suggestion is a valid comprise that can potentially improve the game and be beneficial for everyone.


Additional Disclosure: I have spoken about the silence penalty; as of posting this I am under no penalty on any of my accounts. Please do not lock this thread for this reason (or some variation): https://i.imgur.com/sIQ2aDD.png ///https://i.imgur.com/zoVeR1D.png

Thanks for taking the time to read this post,

Kevin aka Solarwalker
I thought that was going to go a different way, and am pleasantly surprised it didn't. I don't disagree. It is a transaction within the rules of the game, and the fact that people can harass by reporting it probably does warrant some kind of filter. Plus one to your support tally.
The sellers would still list in the same place as everyone else, same as how there is more political BS and trolling than actual trading in the "Trade Chat."

On a side note, if i were you i would remove the bolded twitch address you left as advertising is against the CoC, and after reading all that without a TLDR; you went to a lot of effort just to advertise that you do gold carries.
It needs more filters and functionality generally speaking.

We should be able to supply it with multiple criterion for what we want to do and find groups that fit our needs and apply to all of them.

Same deal as what is needed in the AH for about the past decade.
06/25/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Mooñeca
The sellers would still list in the same place as everyone else, same as how there is more political BS and trolling than actual trading in the "Trade Chat."


So you would have a box that you could uncheck- hiding all the groups that are conducting some kind of trade. If a sales group listed in maw keystone category it would be with every other maw group. However, without the trade filter on then they would be subject to whatever penalty deemed fit by the GM (if reported).
06/25/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Mooñeca
The sellers would still list in the same place as everyone else, same as how there is more political BS and trolling than actual trading in the "Trade Chat."

On a side note, if i were you i would remove the bolded twitch address you left as advertising is against the CoC, and after reading all that without a TLDR; you went to a lot of effort just to advertise that you do gold carries.


that edit lul
06/25/2018 11:30 AMPosted by Hrothknut
It needs more filters and functionality generally speaking.

We should be able to supply it with multiple criterion for what we want to do and find groups that fit our needs and apply to all of them.

Same deal as what is needed in the AH for about the past decade.


And the guild finder - prob the most useless tool in the game
06/25/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Solarwalker
06/25/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Mooñeca
The sellers would still list in the same place as everyone else, same as how there is more political BS and trolling than actual trading in the "Trade Chat."


So you would have a box that you could uncheck- hiding all the groups that are conducting some kind of trade. If a sales group listed in maw keystone category it would be with every other maw group. However, without the trade filter on then they would be subject to whatever penalty deemed fit by the GM (if reported).


I get what you are saying, but a good advertiser goes to any length to sell their product. Why else would my mailbox get filled with adverts every week that i kindly transport from my mailbox straight to my recycle bin? Have you never gotten an illegal spam email? How about an unsolicited phonecall from an advertiser? If gold carries were split from legit groups looking for people for their run, they wouldn't be seen by nearly as many people as they are atm. I am glad people report the carriers as it is not a supported activity and Blizzard doesn't need to facilitate advertising for you for free.
06/25/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Mooñeca
06/25/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Solarwalker
...

So you would have a box that you could uncheck- hiding all the groups that are conducting some kind of trade. If a sales group listed in maw keystone category it would be with every other maw group. However, without the trade filter on then they would be subject to whatever penalty deemed fit by the GM (if reported).


I get what you are saying, but a good advertiser goes to any length to sell their product. Why else would my mailbox get filled with adverts every week that i kindly transport from my mailbox straight to my recycle bin? Have you never gotten an illegal spam email? How about an unsolicited phonecall from an advertiser? If gold carries were split from legit groups looking for people for their run, they wouldn't be seen by nearly as many people as they are atm. I am glad people report the carriers as it is not a supported activity and Blizzard doesn't need to facilitate advertising for you for free.


Um so not split lol. But players are given the ability to filter away the carry groups if they see fit. Everyone gets to have an opinion (:
I'm sure the majority of people who report you are either :

A) Jealous they can't offer carries and make all that gold themselves.
B) Jealous they can't afford to buy a carry.

What you're doing is within the rules. I completely disagree with how the GMs are handling your case. Mob mentality is toxic. Caving to QQ'ing trolls is weak for Blizzard to do.

By the way: I am not someone who has the gear or skill to be able to do what you do. Instead of being jealous, I respect your superior skill and think you should be rewarded for your hard work to get where you are, not punished becauses the masses are jealous of your success.
Couldn't make it through all the text, but I agree with the gist of your post title! I think a sales category in LFG would be good.
Meh, I'm on the other side of your debate, OP.

I pug a lot of my mythics and also raid content in the beginning of each tier.

Groups fill quickly. I DETEST sorting through all the advertised content to get to "real" players that have no need to ever "buy" runs. Many times this causes me to narrowly miss getting that healer spot I'm looking for. I also donate my time in Friendship Birb (we carry 7 per run) runs to get players their achievements and mounts.

It's sad players ever have to pay gold for AOTC or +15's. I wish more would look us up on Open Raid, Legion Buddies, and use their guilds to benefit the community through free carries.

All these gold carries are a pain in the communities back end!

Some one needs to create an add on that blacklists gold carries in the group finder, period.
06/25/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Mooñeca
06/25/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Solarwalker
...

So you would have a box that you could uncheck- hiding all the groups that are conducting some kind of trade. If a sales group listed in maw keystone category it would be with every other maw group. However, without the trade filter on then they would be subject to whatever penalty deemed fit by the GM (if reported).


I get what you are saying, but a good advertiser goes to any length to sell their product. Why else would my mailbox get filled with adverts every week that i kindly transport from my mailbox straight to my recycle bin? Have you never gotten an illegal spam email? How about an unsolicited phonecall from an advertiser? If gold carries were split from legit groups looking for people for their run, they wouldn't be seen by nearly as many people as they are atm. I am glad people report the carriers as it is not a supported activity and Blizzard doesn't need to facilitate advertising for you for free.


I am glad people report the carriers as it is not a supported activity and Blizzard doesn't need to facilitate advertising for you for free.


And just like that, you show that you missed the point completely. Props...
06/25/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Solarwalker
06/25/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Mooñeca
...

I get what you are saying, but a good advertiser goes to any length to sell their product. Why else would my mailbox get filled with adverts every week that i kindly transport from my mailbox straight to my recycle bin? Have you never gotten an illegal spam email? How about an unsolicited phonecall from an advertiser? If gold carries were split from legit groups looking for people for their run, they wouldn't be seen by nearly as many people as they are atm. I am glad people report the carriers as it is not a supported activity and Blizzard doesn't need to facilitate advertising for you for free.


Um so not split lol. But players are given the ability to filter away the carry groups if they see fit. Everyone gets to have an opinion (:


understanding you =/= agreeing with you. If you don't understand, I can make it very clear-- don't allow them at all.

06/25/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Jarlock
I'm sure the majority of people who report you are either :

A) Jealous they can't offer carries and make all that gold themselves.
B) Jealous they can't afford to buy a carry.

[/quote]

You forgot option C) Sick and tired of seeing Spam while trying to actually form/find a group in a finder while using it for it's intended purpose.
06/25/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Meowzie
Meh, I'm on the other side of your debate, OP.

I pug a lot of my mythics and also raid content in the beginning of each tier.

Groups fill quickly. I DETEST sorting through all the advertised content to get to "real" players that have no need to ever "buy" runs. Many times this causes me to narrowly miss getting that healer spot I'm looking for. I also donate my time in Friendship Birb (we carry 7 per run) runs to get players their achievements and mounts.

It's sad players ever have to pay gold for AOTC or +15's. I wish more would look us up on Open Raid, Legion Buddies, and use their guilds to benefit the community through free carries.

All these gold carries are a pain in the communities back end!

Some one needs to create an add on that blacklists gold carries in the group finder, period.


Did you not read his proposition of having the sales group being FILTERED OUT BY DEFAULT?

Also friendship thing is nice and all, but if people WANTS to pay, people will sell it (unless blizzard change their stand, of course...). period. that's how life works and that's how it will always works.
06/25/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Meowzie
Meh, I'm on the other side of your debate, OP.

I pug a lot of my mythics and also raid content in the beginning of each tier.

Groups fill quickly. I DETEST sorting through all the advertised content to get to "real" players that have no need to ever "buy" runs. Many times this causes me to narrowly miss getting that healer spot I'm looking for. I also donate my time in Friendship Birb (we carry 7 per run) runs to get players their achievements and mounts.

It's sad players ever have to pay gold for AOTC or +15's. I wish more would look us up on Open Raid, Legion Buddies, and use their guilds to benefit the community through free carries.

All these gold carries are a pain in the communities back end!

Some one needs to create an add on that blacklists gold carries in the group finder, period.


But his/her suggestion means you do not have to sift through anything, so I am confused what your issue is? I assume you are on the side that they should not be allowed at all? Which is fine if that is your deal. Just not sure what you are on the other side of as the issue you raise is solved by his suggestion. It takes the sale runs out of your group finder window.
06/25/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Meowzie
Meh, I'm on the other side of your debate, OP.

I pug a lot of my mythics and also raid content in the beginning of each tier.

Groups fill quickly. I DETEST sorting through all the advertised content to get to "real" players that have no need to ever "buy" runs. Many times this causes me to narrowly miss getting that healer spot I'm looking for. I also donate my time in Friendship Birb (we carry 7 per run) runs to get players their achievements and mounts.

It's sad players ever have to pay gold for AOTC or +15's. I wish more would look us up on Open Raid, Legion Buddies, and use their guilds to benefit the community through free carries.

All these gold carries are a pain in the communities back end!

Some one needs to create an add on that blacklists gold carries in the group finder, period.


I feel you are missing the point, he is asking to form a new tab on the LFG, this would remove of your need to "sort through" as *hopefully* all the carry runs would be in a sales tab. If you don't want to see them, you don't have to. Also, no players are forced to buy it. They make the choice to pay someone else to help them there. No one is holding a gun to their head making them pay for a carry. However there are some people that have the gold to pay and would rather pay and get their mount then never thing about it again. No matter what happens its THEIR CHOICE. Plus, calling the gold carriers a pain to the community is purely your opinion, the players that carry are an important part of the economy of the game.

As the OP said, he has lead to people buying tokens, which injects cash to Blizz, allowing them to keep the game running, and after that gold is given to the carrier most likely they need consumables for their runs, which leads to gold going to those with professions who sell on the AH, giving them gold for their efforts. Also, the gold made from carries *could* allow sellers to purchase gold cap items (such as the spectral tiger) which again, sends the gold to other players.

Sometimes it is important to consider that for an economy to work there has to be trade
06/25/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Meowzie
I also donate my time in Friendship Birb (we carry 7 per run) runs to get players their achievements and mounts.


I may or may not carry more alliance players in NA by the end of the expansion in the giveaway capacity then friendship bird has done this tier. This is only possible because I can get raiders who want to make gold in their own spots. Some might detest paying for services but not everyone is willing to work for nothing (seller) or accept handouts (buyer).

Gold runs move the goods and services through the economy. If they did not exist then any level of serious raiding would suffer as the players and guilds would not have the resources necessary to fuel progression.



06/25/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Meowzie
It's sad players ever have to pay gold for AOTC or +15's


Its play money - spend it lol.
06/25/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Mooñeca
06/25/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Solarwalker
...

Um so not split lol. But players are given the ability to filter away the carry groups if they see fit. Everyone gets to have an opinion (:


understanding you =/= agreeing with you. If you don't understand, I can make it very clear-- don't allow them at all.

06/25/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Jarlock
I'm sure the majority of people who report you are either :

A) Jealous they can't offer carries and make all that gold themselves.
B) Jealous they can't afford to buy a carry.



You forgot option C) Sick and tired of seeing Spam while trying to actually form/find a group in a finder while using it for it's intended purpose.[/quote]

Well, the intended purpose is to help people form groups. The finder is agnostic as to why people are forming that group. So, not sure why it is spam other than you personally not liking sale groups. They are legitimate listings for people who want to buy or sell them. And let's be honest, it is not like we are sifting through masses of them. There are maybe four or five listed along with the thirty or so other runs listed. I still do believe it makes sense for a separate page for them though. Makes it even easier to get whatever type of group you want together.
06/25/2018 11:20 AMPosted by Solarwalker
Problem 1: The group finder is saturated with many groups competing for player attention. This is the case with both ABT and M+15’s. To some players: there are a disproportionate amount of carry groups for gold vs regular groups.

So why does it feel like the group finder is filled with carry groups? So, most people put some item level restriction on their group. When you fall below that requirement you are unable to see those group. No reasonable/capable carry group is going to restrict the item level of a potential client. So as a low item level character you are seeing groups that either: forgot to put an item level requirement, don’t have the ability to require a higher item level and people who don’t care about your item level.

Why do some people get frustrated when they see other players (not breaking any rules) while advertising carries for gold? There are a few possible reasons: they are frustrated that they can’t find a group for the activity that they are interested in or they keep getting declined, they are insulted that someone is asking them to pay for the option to join a group and/or they don’t have the gold or means to acquire the gold for the activity.

Is group finder filled with only carry groups? No.

Are there more gold carry groups at this point in the expansion? Why? Yes. The people who run these groups do it for basic in-game economic reasons. I personally, would not play WoW as much as I do if I was not involved in gold runs. Additionally, the barrier to entry is low. You and a few of your friends can carry a 15 right now (maybe)!

Problem 2: Some players are breaking Blizzard’s code of conduct by reporting legitimate gold only sales groups.

So, what are people doing when they are frustrated with the amount of people selling runs in group finder or trade chat? Many are choosing to report them in hopes to squelching the activity. Many of them are breaking Blizzard’s code of conduct in this action as they are “ falsely reporting another player with the sole intent of restricting their gameplay” which SHOULD “result in penalties.”

Problem 3: The Blizzard GM team has elected to cease overturning silences related to group finder. I have personally been silenced over thirty times; these silences have been overturned more than thirty times. Recently, the department has decided that they will now longer overturn silences related to group finder groups. This will likely open the floodgates for harassment. Players can now freely grief other players and (even after zero wrong doing is discovered) the GM supervisors have made it clear that they will not over turn these silences (https://imgur.com/rVyFd4j). The system is broken, the problems are clear, the abuse is obvious.

Hopefully this thread can lead to some changes in how the GM staff is dealing with this issue and/or senior leadership can take the initiative to implement in-game systems changes.

Proposal 1: implement a sales filter in the group finder. The game has changed since group finder was implemented. Once upon a time, you were able to find people for your groups in trade chat. These days it is anomaly to see people posting “LFM” outside of group finder. The WoW token allows for cross realm carries to take place without leaving out the low/medium population realms. A sales filter allows for the player base that is opposed to sales in any and all capacity (legit or otherwise) to hide this market when they are trying to find a group. This filter would be a simple box to check when creating the group. If Blizzard did not want to introduce new jargon they would name this box “trade.” The meaning would be obvious. A group might look something like this: [trade] Maw 15 carries (gold only). The trade should be auto enabled, and players would have the ability to opted out.

Proposal 2: Enforce the rules where they are being broken. If legitimate activities are taking place in game “supported” or not: they should be allowed to continue, unencumbered. The inability to conduct trades of these nature breaks the immersion of anyone trying to enjoy the MMO experience where players of all different skills can exchange goods and services freely. Players are activity breaking the Code of Conduct (https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/42673) when they falsely report groups selling for gold, with the intention of restricting gameplay. The gaming experience is worse for everyone involved. There should be punishment for these players (so they might learn). For many a silence or two is a clear abuse. For me personally, it has been the equivalent to online harassment. I cannot play the game the way I want (while breaking no rules) without being harassed with these reports and penalties.

OP Context: I am the leader of a one to one Argus carry group (so we don't pug people for our kills). I stream these runs on twitch.tv/kevinramm. I have made over 125M gold in this tier alone (community support btw). I have personally transitioned to doing more Spellwing carry giveaways on stream. While promoting this I have never been silenced with such consistency. I am giving it away for free, surly that’s okay? I really hope someone at Blizzard can take the hint and recognize that this system is broken and the enforcement is bad. The sales/advertisement filter is a step, but the GM department needs to get on the same page with the rule book and the companies financial interest (I have personally conducted actions that directly led to the sale thousands of dollars in WoW tokens). We have over a hundred people that currently (or have in the past) sold this or other in-game services for gold. I wrote this post because, after my discussions with Blizzard supervisors (via email and phone), it has become apparent that they are leaning in the direction of making (what I believe) is the wrong decision. My suggestion is a valid comprise that can potentially improve the game and be beneficial for everyone.


Additional Disclosure: I have spoken about the silence penalty; as of posting this I am under no penalty on any of my accounts. Please do not lock this thread for this reason (or some variation): https://i.imgur.com/sIQ2aDD.png ///https://i.imgur.com/zoVeR1D.png

Thanks for taking the time to read this post,

Kevin aka Solarwalker


There are addons that can do advanced filtering

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