Tank Utility disparity for M+

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
There is a large disparity of tank utility that has existed for some time, and with MDI and M+ being at the forefront of attention I think it’s time that blizzard addresses it for BFA.

This is not a post asking to “nerf this class, or that one” It is simply drawing attention to the lack of equal footing for tank utility (Read: NOT HOMOGENIZATION).

I found that its best to give each thing that tanks bring to a table a point value, so we can easily see what tanks are lacking and what tanks are in a good spot. For this I assigned 1 point for every utility they bring to the table. This includes stuns, fears, saps, buffs for the group, battle rezes, ability to carry a healer through self-sustain (because this is BIG for MDI/M+), mechanic avoidance (such as AMS), ETC.

For this I am only including things that can help the group complete their jobs, deal with mechanics, or make the run easier, and I have excluded DR since staying alive is a tanks job, however carrying a healer through self-sustain allows the healer to focus on healing the DPS or DOING dps, which I consider huge utility.

DKs Total: 11 points

Stun Immunity: 1 point
AOE grip: 1 point
ST grip: 1 point
ST stun: 1 point
Aoe Snare: 1 point
Parry CD/DPS cd: 1 point
Self-sustain to carry healer: 1 point
HP boost with healing received increase (helps carry a healer): 1 point
Mechanic avoidance/magic DR (absorb) : 1 point
Sap: 1 point
Brez: 1 point

Monk Total: 3 points

AOE stun: 1 point
ST in/out of combat sap: 1 point
AOE snare: 1 point

Warrior Total: 8 points

AOE stun: 1 point
AOE fear: 1 point
ST Stun: 1 point
AOE snare: 1 point
Group HP increase: 1 point
Fear/incap Immunity: 1 point
Dps cd #1: 1 point
DPS cd #2: 1 point


Paladin Total: 13 points

aoe snare: 1 point
Bop: 1 point
Bubble: 1 point
Dr #1: 1 point
DR#2: 1 point
LoH: 1 point
BoF: 1 point
BoS: 1 point
ST instacast heal (able to use on others): 1 point
ST stun: 1 point
AOE disorient: 1 point
DPS cd #1: 1 point
DPS CD #2 : 1 point


VDH Total: 5 points
However, i still think VDH is in a good spot due to their DPS and mobility (ive excluded mobility from this list however)

AOE silence: 1 point
AOE grip: 1 point
AOE Fear: 1 point
Self-sustain to carry a healer: 1 point
ST stun: 1 point

Bear: 4 points

ST Stun: 1 point
AOE disorient: 1 point
AOE sprint: 1 point
Battle Rez: 1 point

Let me know if I missed something :)

Good luck tankybois. :)
Paladins also have an AoE snare (Consecrated Ground).

It's a good attempt, but putting the same point value to every ability loses something. For example, the only use of an AOE disorient is to interrupt spellcasting. But mass grip also interrupts spellcasting, plus doing a whole lot more.
There is some utility that is missing from this sheet.

First the new class buffs. That gives a point to Monks, DHs, and Warriors.

Also I would include mobility which also gives points to each of the aforementioned classes and possibly Druid’s.

The most recent MDI shows what happens when one class is too strong. And basically with the self healing of a DK, grip, and Brez you can see why.

I think balancing the utility for tanks is a good idea but it’s more complex than that. For instance the damage a tank brings is not a binary yes/no 1/0 option and can significantly contribute to the group.

Further complicating the issue is that currently Bliz seems to be balancing tanks for raid encounters, not dungeons. And the list of tanks is basically turned on it’s head when you look at that. For instance monk, which is one of the worst dungeon tanks is now one of the best raid tanks with its talent overhaul and stagger gaining additional % to magic damage.
I think your choices for what to include in utility are arbitrary. Like, DK tanking CDs (VB, IBF, DRW) count for utility, but why doesn't your AM count for anything? The parry buff from it + DH mobility is gonna be pretty strong on necrotic weeks for example. Isn't meta a dps and tanking CD? Why wasn't that included? Excluding mobility seems very arbitrary, especially when mobility is one of the DK's weakest areas.

You also don't address the quality difference in abilities, for example, new gorefiend's is a 2min CD without the talent, and 1.5 min with talent. Chains is a 1.5 min talent that also includes an aoe snare (which you didn't mention). Where's the DH purge in this list? Did DH lose imprison? What about the brez differences going forward (bear - 10 rage, 100% hp, 20% mana, instant, DK - 30 RP, 60% hp, 20% mana, instant) ?
How the hell can you only give self-sustain to carry the healer only 1 point? There's a reason the only tanks you see in ultra high M+ are DK and DH/Pal.

The self sustain IS the reason to take these tanks, not to mention the aoe grips.

Warrior is probably the WORST tank to take to mythic + right now and you give him more than 50% points than DH? You've gotta be kidding yourself.
06/25/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Kaylae
I think your choices for what to include in utility are arbitrary.

I agree.

I think you have the right idea, ignore "patchwork" style effective health measurements since they are quantifiable and thus relatively easy to balance and instead focus on the toolkits.

However I don't think a single metric rating can convey the efficacy of design in comparing say .... death grip to heroic leap (one gets mob to you/group one gets you to mob)... which is better? Well I can leap out/over hazzards with HL and some mobs are immune to grip... but I can grip mobs mid cast/out of hazzards... you cant give them an equal 1 score until we quantify it against all M+ content.

In BFA
Monks also have 5% inc physical damage for party, demon hunters have a ~10 second purge and 5% inc magical damage for party and warriors have the battleshout.
Not all utilities are equal... If you count a 2s stun as 1 point, then a Brez is worth like 10 points.
I think it’s pretty unanimously agreed upon that dk/dh have dominated the mythic+ And are still like looking to do so in bfa so far. I can’t think of hardly anything that a bear for example does better than those two. They have almost everything you’d want.
06/25/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Sifu
Not all utilities are equal... If you count a 2s stun as 1 point, then a Brez is worth like 10 points.

Brez's aren't worth 10 points. Most comps have at least 2 or 3 brez specs, and with the brez changes have 1 brez spec is effectively the same thing as having 5 classes with brezs. AoE stuns should be worth like 15 points since the amount of AoE stuns left in the game is very very low. Also as far as dk slow goes you can either take slow, grip cd reduction, or a tiny amount of mobility.
Make Gorefiend's worth 30 points and your list will probably make more sense.

There's a reason this chart looks like this: https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-7.3.2/all/us/leaderboards-strict#role=tank:mode=all:minMythicLevel=25:maxMythicLevel=29
Click on the Healer tab on that list, and you won't see anything other than Pally and Druid for at least the first 20 pages. While I agree that tanks are incredibly un balanced for M+, it's clear that healers are in even worse shape. Seems more like a choice that Blizz made rather than something they overlooked, so not holding my breath that it will get fixed.
06/25/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Lanair
I can’t think of hardly anything that a bear for example does better than those two.


Bears have had their knees broken. For too long early in legion they were the god tier tanks... as far as raid tanking went, gift of ursoc + ironfur + higher health pool + raid utility from roar etc.

I feel the big problem with bears is that they do not have access to their hybrid kit at all.... you cant really shift out of bear and remove corruption, drop some heals (resto affinity) or the like.

I don't know how helpful soothe and hybernate are in M+... does soothe interact with enraging, bolstering, tyranical or any affixes... is so that seems very powerful to me.
06/25/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Kaylae
What about the brez differences going forward (bear - 10 rage, 100% hp, 20% mana, instant, DK - 30 RP, 60% hp, 20% mana, instant) ?


Just as a quick fact-check, bear brez in BfA is 30 rage.

Carry on.
06/25/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Babomb
06/25/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Lanair
I can’t think of hardly anything that a bear for example does better than those two.


Bears have had their knees broken. For too long early in legion they were the god tier tanks... as far as raid tanking went, gift of ursoc + ironfur + higher health pool + raid utility from roar etc.

I feel the big problem with bears is that they do not have access to their hybrid kit at all.... you cant really shift out of bear and remove corruption, drop some heals (resto affinity) or the like.

I don't know how helpful soothe and hybernate are in M+... does soothe interact with enraging, bolstering, tyranical or any affixes... is so that seems very powerful to me.


Bears don't even get Soothe. The other 3 Druid specs do, but not us.

Also, we don't have Innervate. Although Hazzikostas seems to think we do...
This is so frustrating. I lose a long post I did based on the Mythic Plus leaderboard from 15 to 29.
Let's sum up:
DKs are really superior to any other tank. Why? Can't be self healing alone or Brez. Guardians go from a middle spot in 15-19 to the bottom of the list at 25-29, why?

The mitigation tanks are lower and it's statistically robust to affirm that they are, than the self-healing tanks. Therefore, to level the ground, the mitigation tanks need to trade mitigation for self-healing in dungeons.
Monks: Have a talent that reduces the number of brews available and increase the # of healing spheres created
Warriors and Druids: Have talents that reduces their self-healing CD to zero (Impending Victory and Frenzied Regen) while make them cost more rage

PS: Naturally we need to argue that specially VDH and Paladins may need talents that trade, the other way around: self-healing for more mitigation to be able to have their spot under the sun in Competitive Mythic Raiding (add a decent Tank CD to VDH also)
One utility you left out for Brewmaster is the Ox statue aoe taunt could be relevant on skittish.
06/26/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Kraxsus
One utility you left out for Brewmaster is the Ox statue aoe taunt could be relevant on skittish.

I was about to bring this up as well. -- Though the value of the statue is very dependant on the dungeon. At least in Legion, using the statue can be suicide because you pull half the dungeon in certain areas.

If the dungeons are a bit better designed though, it will be quite nice, even outside of skittish. -- Just got my BrM to 120 and wanted to check this out this week.
06/26/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Guessmyname
06/26/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Kraxsus
One utility you left out for Brewmaster is the Ox statue aoe taunt could be relevant on skittish.

I was about to bring this up as well. -- Though the value of the statue is very dependant on the dungeon. At least in Legion, using the statue can be suicide because you pull half the dungeon in certain areas.

If the dungeons are a bit better designed though, it will be quite nice, even outside of skittish. -- Just got my BrM to 120 and wanted to check this out this week.


Keeping aggro I am not putting into their toolkit because all tanks have threat management, and thats not something we are talking about.

06/25/2018 08:31 PMPosted by Department
Make Gorefiend's worth 30 points and your list will probably make more sense.

There's a reason this chart looks like this: https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-7.3.2/all/us/leaderboards-strict#role=tank:mode=all:minMythicLevel=25:maxMythicLevel=29


Adding weights would deter the real discussion. The point is to get an overhead view of the disparity. We all know gorefiends is amazing, and I agree its one of the best utilities out there... but lets not make this into an opinion pole.

06/25/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Sifu
Not all utilities are equal... If you count a 2s stun as 1 point, then a Brez is worth like 10 points.


See above.

06/25/2018 06:20 PMPosted by Anserio
How the hell can you only give self-sustain to carry the healer only 1 point? There's a reason the only tanks you see in ultra high M+ are DK and DH/Pal.

The self sustain IS the reason to take these tanks, not to mention the aoe grips.

Warrior is probably the WORST tank to take to mythic + right now and you give him more than 50% points than DH? You've gotta be kidding yourself.


I agree, however, see above.
06/25/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Kaylae
I think your choices for what to include in utility are arbitrary. Like, DK tanking CDs (VB, IBF, DRW) count for utility, but why doesn't your AM count for anything? The parry buff from it + DH mobility is gonna be pretty strong on necrotic weeks for example. Isn't meta a dps and tanking CD? Why wasn't that included? Excluding mobility seems very arbitrary, especially when mobility is one of the DK's weakest areas.

You also don't address the quality difference in abilities, for example, new gorefiend's is a 2min CD without the talent, and 1.5 min with talent. Chains is a 1.5 min talent that also includes an aoe snare (which you didn't mention). Where's the DH purge in this list? Did DH lose imprison? What about the brez differences going forward (bear - 10 rage, 100% hp, 20% mana, instant, DK - 30 RP, 60% hp, 20% mana, instant) ?


I did forget to put DH imprison on there, and i corrected it.

However AM is on there "Mechanic avoidance/magic DR (absorb) : 1 point" Unless youre talking about this: "Parry CD/DPS cd: 1 point"

But again, we are not adding weights to the discussion due to how clouded the message would get.
06/25/2018 01:52 PMPosted by Tewa
Paladins also have an AoE snare (Consecrated Ground).


fixed.

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