I will not unsubscribe...

General Discussion
06/29/2018 06:42 AMPosted by Phydeaux
06/29/2018 06:34 AMPosted by Arrienne
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If a person continues to play a game that that they pay for, while the gaming company keeps making changes that they dislike, enough to the point where the person no longer likes enough in the game to keep them subbed, then voting with their wallet is a smart consumer move, imo. Why continue to support mediocrity?

Blizzard used to be so much better at making sure the game was finished before release (also known as "polish"). Now, not only is the game released way before it's done, we have things like RNG ruling everything, re-colors, re-skins, endless grinds, it's all just trending towards mediocrity instead of the AAA Flagship it used to be. Don't get me wrong, WoW is still probably the best choice out there when it comes to MMORPGs (my opinion), but the game seriously lacks the quality it used to have.

When you continue to pay for a mediocre game, all you are doing is telling the developers and accountants that you're willing to settle for less. That's great news to them, because it means a lot less work that they have to do! Money is pretty much the only "voice" we players have as consumers of the product. Speaking with that "voice" is sometimes the only smart way to get the devs and bean counters to pay attention.

We PAY for this product, continuously. They don't pay US to be guinea pigs. Maybe the customer isn't always right, but if the product fails to live up to expectations and ignores tons of feedback from customers saying the same thing, then walking away is both warranted and wise.


I agree this 100%, but I'm not sure you meant to reply to my comment. This is saying a lot of the same stuff I have been saying.


Sorry for any confusion! I should have explained that I just wanted to add to what you had said. I liked your points and was only trying to expand on them with some of my own thoughts.
Let me change the context of that, so you can see what others see:

I will not leave you, no matter how poorly you treat me - Say that to a significant other

I will never stop shopping here, no matter how poor your quality is and how much you charge me - Say that to any other provider.

It's a ridiculous thing to think and even more ridiculous to say.

Edit: And for the people on here that are saying that the customer isn't always right, you are all fools as well. You people treat everything as a monolith just so you talk about it in the most extreme measures. I'd like every single one of you people to publicly state here, a single controversial change made by Blizzard that wasn't discussed on these forums by people with differing opinions? And during that time, did you say that as customers they were wrong? Or did you just happen to agree with them at that time?

You obviously aren't and never have been in business for yourself. I am here to tell you that the customer/consumer is most definitely not always right. They are, in fact, predominately and painfully ignorant regarding the service or product being "consumed" most of the time.

Liking and playing this game doesn't for one second make you or me an authority on how to make it more successful. Me wanting something to be changed/added/removed in the game doesn't make that desire necessarily logical or feasible in terms of effective and intelligent game development. It merely comes down to what we like versus what Blizzard wants or feels is needed/not needed. If the two sides don't jive?? I'm pretty sure Blizz is gonna win that fight. And they should most of the time.

Unless everybody here secretly owns and operates their own Multi-Million dollar gaming company and actually knows what that entails, I really don't want any of us making decisions regarding development.
I think people really should unsub if there is something they find worth standing up for. If we use High Elves as an example I would not unsub just because we don't get them but if they ever went the Zandalari Paladin route to spite us I would leave in a heartbeat.
06/29/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Cartis
06/29/2018 06:34 AMPosted by Arrienne
When you continue to pay for a mediocre game, all you are doing is telling the developers and accountants that you're willing to settle for less. That's great news to them, because it means a lot less work that they have to do! Money is pretty much the only "voice" we players have as consumers of the product. Speaking with that "voice" is sometimes the only smart way to get the devs and bean counters to pay attention.

What this line of thinking fails to consider is the budget Blizzard has to work with. First and foremost, none of us work for Blizzard and we have no idea how much money is in the budget for new expansion.

But make no mistake, there is a budget. And that budget is NOT approved by anyone working on the WoW team. It's approved by some kind of board, steering committee or some executive governance that sits above the WoW team.

So what you really should consider is ... Don't you think Ion and the rest of the Blizzard team want as much money as humanly possible to add as many features as humanly possible? Do you really think they got the budget they wanted? And do you really think that how the game is now is not directly impacted by how much money they have to spend on it?

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to vote with your wallet, but I promise if your goal is to quit in hopes Blizzard will reconsider some of the decisions they've made. You're INSANE! That's never going to happen. Seriously, it's not.

inb4, "it worked with flying ... the reverted their decision" ... There is absolutely no issue going on with the game right now that even comes close to the bombshell that was Ion saying they are going to remove flying. Literally nothing and that is the difference.


That's a good point, about the money. The problem I have with that theory is that when I consider how much money the company makes overall, and then when I see how much money they put into their other IPs (like Hearthstone, Overwatch, their purchase of King Games, etc.) and compare that to what we've been getting with WoW, it feels like they are using all the income from WoW on their other games and WoW's development is getting shafted.

Maybe they really are being fenced in by budget constraints, or maybe they're just creatively bankrupt. I'm not a game developer, so I don't know all the intricacies of how much it costs to do some things in the game. I do know that with flying (since you mentioned it), it's a lot more cost effective to create a 2-D, painted skydrop (i.e. Argus, Silvermoon City, etc.) than it is to go full 3-D landscape.

Aside from their laziness (or budget constraints) on designing the world for flight, we had tons of RNG in Legion, which itself is the epitome of lazy game design in my opinion. Give the players a slot machine and let them wear themselves out pulling the lever. The same thing could be said about the time-gated, facebook game mission boards. How come my character isn't the one out running those missions? The choices of re-skins and re-colors (upcoming achievement rewards, BfA mounts, allied races) also smacks of the creative well having run dry. Or maybe you're right and it's just less expensive to develop.

I won't be buying the expansion until people are flying (so that I know exactly what hoops are required for Pathfinder) and I can play through at my own pace instead of being frustrated by time-gates. But I still intend to play, because there are other things in the game that I enjoy.

That said, I completely understand why people unsub and quit playing when the devs take away enough things that those people enjoy. It's like this particular dev team is hellbent on taking things away from us instead of adding things to the game, or if they do add things to the game, they are hollow replacements for what we've lost. I want to shake these devs and just say, "Cut it out! Quit taking things AWAY from us and making us go through so many contortions to earn back what we already had. It's not fun. You know, fun? The game used to be about the players having fun! Do you even PLAY your own game anymore?"

Now it feels more like the devs are just phoning it in and it's all about how much milk they can squeeze from an aging cash cow so they can use that money on other projects/games. :( That makes me both sad and angry.
As the great sage once said, "Do or do not. There is no whine."
06/29/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Cartis
06/29/2018 06:34 AMPosted by Arrienne
When you continue to pay for a mediocre game, all you are doing is telling the developers and accountants that you're willing to settle for less. That's great news to them, because it means a lot less work that they have to do! Money is pretty much the only "voice" we players have as consumers of the product. Speaking with that "voice" is sometimes the only smart way to get the devs and bean counters to pay attention.

What this line of thinking fails to consider is the budget Blizzard has to work with. First and foremost, none of us work for Blizzard and we have no idea how much money is in the budget for new expansion.

But make no mistake, there is a budget. And that budget is NOT approved by anyone working on the WoW team. It's approved by some kind of board, steering committee or some executive governance that sits above the WoW team.

So what you really should consider is ... Don't you think Ion and the rest of the Blizzard team want as much money as humanly possible to add as many features as humanly possible? Do you really think they got the budget they wanted? And do you really think that how the game is now is not directly impacted by how much money they have to spend on it?


Actually, no. This line of thinking is incorrect. The head honchos didn't come up with removal of flight. They didn't come up with Pathfinder. They didn't come up with level scaling or ilvl scaling. They didn't demand that level scaling be put in the entire game and mob health be drastically increase. They didn't demand that leveling spell progression be broken in order to make something called an "artifact" both palatable and a huge time sink for max level players. They didn't demand that old raids be scaled up so no one but max level players can solo them.

Ion presents the big guys with his plan, and provided he has numbers that appear to back it up, they rubber stamp it.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to vote with your wallet, but I promise if your goal is to quit in hopes Blizzard will reconsider some of the decisions they've made. You're INSANE! That's never going to happen. Seriously, it's not.

inb4, "it worked with flying ... the reverted their decision" ... There is absolutely no issue going on with the game right now that even comes close to the bombshell that was Ion saying they are going to remove flying. Literally nothing and that is the difference.

Nope. It's nothing but a strawman argument that this entire thread is based on, one that you have fallen for hook, line, and sinker.

The idea that people unsubscribe to make a political point rather than because they want to stop playing for a game they no longer find of value is nothing short of nonsense. It's pretty much a lie that the OP is intentionally spreading for the purpose of aligning himself with the devs, and trying to excuse in his own mind why devs might do things that annoy players enough to make them leave.

"But those players aren't really leaving! They only unsub to make a point, and they will resub and keep playing!"

Nope. Millions of players have left the game, most of them over game development decisions that made the game less fun.

Nobody owes it to you to keep paying despite the fact that the game is no longer fun to them. You are the one trying to advance an agenda if you attempt to get people to pay for a game they no longer want to play.

The idea that people who stop paying for the game are only "speaking with their wallets" to make a political point just reveals your own agenda and nothing more.
It's my understanding from forum posts that there is no "why are you leaving" box any more. Don't know myself as I haven't quit before.

The people who would "quit" over issues only to resub with no loss of play time never counted anyway. People come and go all the time, a lot of people just don't like recurring charges so "quit" every month. No one ever looks at exactly who quits/starts, only whether the aggregate numbers change drastically.

Blizzard has the metrics. They know how many people do whatever content. They can see when they've pushed a group too far and they do adjust things -- IF they want that group. Because the reality is, they don't want all of us. Some of us are just not worth bothering with. They have demographics of their playerbase which includes outliers, but they are designing for a population they think they can serve. As they should, I hope that they design the best possible game for the people who enjoy it.

All I can say is my time is coming to an end and when I quit, I plan on quitting for good. I've drafted up my farewell post stressing the good times I've had more than my reasons for leaving. I don't think any of my reasons for leaving will make any impact at all in terms of corporate design decisions.
06/29/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Haven
MMOs are a strange bird. People think they have almost rights in this game like in RL.


There is validity to this thought though. The players invest a rather large chunk of time (which is the same thing to Blizzard as money) and resources and emotion in their characters.

There may not be a set of legal rights for these avatars but the players often become quite attached to them and to the playstyles metrics lore and backstory of their characters to the point of assigning these avatars anthropomorphic traits such as rights.

At some point someone somewhere is going to attempt to make that point in the real world (Second Life had its moment in the sun and the questions answered there don't necessarily answer questions in this venue) with real lawyers and real judges.

If Blizzard comes out on top legally speaking it may be that the political/economical backlash of that turns it to a Pyrrhic victory for them, or it may not. If however, the law as we understand it comes down on the side of the player (not really seeing at the moment how it could given the current weather conditions, I'm just playing devil's advocate on this thought following it where the breeze takes me) then we can assign some sort of transferable rights to the avatars. From that moment Blizzard might as well close up shop as they would likely not be able to make wholesale changes to classes races and other systems within the game without running afoul of some sort of virtual civil rights.

One shudders at the import of that. We win the war on players rights only to find that the sword we thought was in our hand pinning good old Blizzard to the wall was instead the mythical sword, The Sword of Damocles, and we are the ones sitting under it at the table.
06/29/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Brænnuð
Lol, ok Broski. You obviously aren't and never have been in business for yourself. I am here to tell you that the customer/consumer is most definitely not always right. They are, in fact, predominately and painfully ignorant regarding the service or product being "consumed" most of the time.


Nobody has said a single time, that the customer is always right. Again, thanks for giving another example of creating a monolith so you can have a basis for your argument. Sad truth is, it's still a pointless argument for you to make.

It is every bit as stupid to say that the customer is always right, as it is to act like they are never right.
06/29/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Infernalism
What players want isn't necessarily what's best for the game.


Its their game. If they make a game that I am not willing to pay for, I will unsub. It is after all, my $15. They have to decide if the money from subscribers is worth listening to their customers. Their choice.
06/29/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Hoofdini
Its their game. If they make a game that I am not willing to pay for, I will unsub. It is after all, my $15. They have to decide if the money from subscribers is worth listening to their customers. Their choice.


The problem boils down to people thinking that their voice is the voice of the subscribers. They can still be listening to the subscribers without listening to you in particular. I agree that we all have to decide if something is worth x amount of money for us personally, but we should also realize that getting what we want may actually be worse for them/the game/everyone else.

edit: This was a general thing, not directed at you personally.
06/29/2018 05:01 AMPosted by Vitalis
Blizzard could create polls to gauge community's opinion in such matters


Blizz is more interested in making the game they want to make. People who like it will play it. It's not a popularity contest. That would be TERRIBLE. I suggest you read several thousand threads about the "community's opinion". We want everything, and don't want it.

Not to mention polls (that aren't randomly taken) are useless because self selected populations mean nothing statistically. Sorry.
Unsubscribed a long time ago and I'm living on gold that I use to check on the game from time to time..

I felt cheated when they promised flying in Legion and then postponed it for several months. Not going to happen again!

I will (maybe) buy BfA only after a clear Blizzard statement about the Pathfinder achievement completion date.

Blizz game, Blizz rules.
My money, My rules.
But, the players ultimately determine the success of a game.
Unsubscribing is moot, since people always unsubscribe.

You'd do more for the game if you just played it, hitting that question mark for "help" and then going to "Submit a suggestion."

Many people don't even know that exists, I only found out some time in Legion and I've played for over 14 years; No idea when they added it.

The best thing you can do, better than posting on the boards where it might get buried, is to submit a suggestion in game. If thousands submit the same suggestion, in game, it carries more weight. ANYONE and follow up in a thread, saying "OH yeah, met too!" It takes no effort, so it likely carries little weight.

If it actually carried more weight, we'd have 30 more races of High Elves. How many people, in all of the myriad of High Elf threads, have bothered to submit a suggestion about it in game? I bet out of all the threads, with all of the people saying "Yes!", I bet there have maybe been 3 in game submissions. A thread could have 450 "me too"s, with maybe only a couple in game suggestions.
06/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Phydeaux
Lol, ok Broski. You obviously aren't and never have been in business for yourself. I am here to tell you that the customer/consumer is most definitely not always right. They are, in fact, predominately and painfully ignorant regarding the service or product being "consumed" most of the time.


Nobody has said a single time, that the customer is always right. Again, thanks for giving another example of creating a monolith so you can have a basis for your argument. Sad truth is, it's still a pointless argument for you to make.

It is every bit as stupid to say that the customer is always right, as it is to act like they are never right.

Cherry pick much? You were the one calling people fools for stating that the customer isn't always right. I responded to that nonsense.
...

Nobody has said a single time, that the customer is always right. Again, thanks for giving another example of creating a monolith so you can have a basis for your argument. Sad truth is, it's still a pointless argument for you to make.

It is every bit as stupid to say that the customer is always right, as it is to act like they are never right.

Cherry pick much? You were the one calling people fools for stating that the customer isn't always right. I responded to that nonsense.


Not sure you know what cherry picking is either apparently.

Here is what I said in the original post.

06/29/2018 05:56 AMPosted by Phydeaux
Edit: And for the people on here that are saying that the customer isn't always right, you are all fools as well. You people treat everything as a monolith just so you talk about it in the most extreme measures


Notice how the second sentence gives context to the first?
06/29/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Brænnuð
Unless everybody here secretly owns and operates their own Multi-Million dollar gaming company and actually knows what that entails, I really don't want any of us making decisions regarding development.


Making decisions? No, I agree. But, letting the design company know how we feel about those decisions, and whether those decisions will keep us subbing and buying new expansions or not seems like it would be valuable to said company.

Being a game designer is not a necessary requirement for giving good and helpful feedback or reviews. I don't think Siskel or Ebert made films, but their reviews were often golden. Sure, the common player isn't a professional reviewer, but a lot of feedback from Joe or Jane Schmoe is good.

Hopefully Blizzard puts more stock in the feedback from everyday players than you do. I'm not sure what feedback they listen to or not. I'm pretty sure they "correct the ship" when revenues fall, but beyond that, I genuinely don't know.

If they are arrogant about commoners' feedback, which it possibly sounds like you feel they should be, then that has and likely will lead to people leaving the game.

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