Scaling details please

Battle for Azeroth Warmode and PvP
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Let me spell it out for you ... M= Massivly, M= Multiplayer, O= Online, R= Role, P= Playing, G= Game. That's the literal definition of MMORPG. There is nothing in that acronym that says anything about levels and itemization or grinding, or PvP, or PvE, or dragons or elves or anything.


Let me spell it out for you an RPG is about Gear and Level progression. Doesn't matter the game whether it's Diablo, WoW, PoE, Neverwinter or any other RPG type game the reason you play it is to have character progression through leveling and Gear. That is what makes them an RPG or MMORPG.

If you don't want Gear or Levels to matter then we have a MOBA which is a type of game I hate. I don't play Heroes of the storm and Legion was basically Heroes of the Storm 2.0 which is why it was the worst PvP expansion and I skipped it.

For PvP to be successful and for this to be an RPG you need progression each week where your character gets stronger. PvP gear and gaining more power is essential to PvP participation.

In Diablo you are farming for gear and Paragon lvls to get stronger
In World of Warcraft you are going from 110 to 120 and gearing up each week to become stronger.

This is the foundation of this game and what an RPG is about! Please don't try to say it isn't when it is!!!

Now you know! The reason most people play this game is for character progression through Levels and Gear. If you remove that then there is no reason to play! Peroid!

Again stop trying to break what an RPG stands for and make this game not WoW anymore. It just is sad that now we have to play other games that feel more like World of Warcraft then this game. I been playing another MMORPG the last 2 yrs and it has an unlimited lvling system and gear matters. I play it because that is what we look for in an MMORPG. Progression! Which is a key component to PvP participation.

I do hope that World of Warcraft will return and be a great game some day again. However we won't get there with insane ideas that go completely against what an MMORPG is about. Just bring on Classic servers and WotLK when the game was actually amazing. We played WotLK for a reason! It was what an MMORPG is about!
06/28/2018 04:56 PMPosted by Abombanation
Let me spell it out for you ... M= Massivly, M= Multiplayer, O= Online, R= Role, P= Playing, G= Game. That's the literal definition of MMORPG. There is nothing in that acronym that says anything about levels and itemization or grinding, or PvP, or PvE, or dragons or elves or anything.


Let me spell it out for you an RPG is about Gear and Level progression. Doesn't matter the game whether it's Diablo, WoW, PoE, Neverwinter or any other RPG type game the reason you play it is to have character progression through leveling and Gear. That is what makes them an RPG or MMORPG.

If you don't want Gear or Levels to matter then we have a MOBA which is a type of game I hate. I don't play Heroes of the storm and Legion was basically Heroes of the Storm 2.0 which is why it was the worst PvP expansion and I skipped it.

For PvP to be successful and for this to be an RPG you need progression each week where your character gets stronger. PvP gear and gaining more power is essential to PvP participation.

In Diablo you are farming for gear and Paragon lvls to get stronger
In World of Warcraft you are going from 110 to 120 and gearing up each week to become stronger.

This is the foundation of this game and what an RPG is about! Please don't try to say it isn't when it is!!!

Now you know! The reason most people play this game is for character progression through Levels and Gear. If you remove that then there is no reason to play! Peroid!

Again stop trying to break what an RPG stands for and make this game not WoW anymore. It just is sad that now we have to play other games that feel more like World of Warcraft then this game. I been playing another MMORPG the last 2 yrs and it has an unlimited lvling system and gear matters. I play it because that is what we look for in an MMORPG. Progression! Which is a key component to PvP participation.

I do hope that World of Warcraft will return and be a great game some day again. However we won't get there with insane ideas that go completely against what an MMORPG is about. Just bring on Classic servers and WotLK when the game was actually amazing. We played WotLK for a reason! It was what an MMORPG is about!


Roar is going to see this and reply with something along the lines of "to bad" or "classic is coming" or "get used to it, this is here to stay" or "if you want progression do pve that doesnt belong in pvp"

For me I see what you are saying but there is a positive, everyone is a target which also means more wpvp but the only thing this hurts is the true sense of danger. Players being powerful being able to overpower you, seeing a skull player and the initial thought is "oh sh1t" or "that dude is in for a world of hurt if he decides to gank me" that sense of danger will never be the same. Getting gear won't feel the same or lvling up if everyone is on an even playing field. Those days are gone but if the return means more wpvp or pvp participation, I'm in.
06/28/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Xadie
Getting gear won't feel the same or lvling up if everyone is on an even playing field. Those days are gone but if the return means more wpvp or pvp participation, I'm in.


The return won't be more WPvP though. There won't be as much participation just less people playing. The best PvP and highest participation we ever had also had the biggest power gaps in gear. You see Gear was never a barrier to PvP it is the glue that holds PvP together. We saw in Legion by removing the importance of Gear mainly PvP Gear what it did. It drove down PvP participation to all time lows.

The first move was great to remove templates as they get in the way of an RPG and of course are disgusting. However people still play this game to gain power and Gear. It is the driving force and if you remove that then participation will suffer just like Legion. There just won't be any reason to play. So you can wonder around in open world ready for battle but there just won't be that many player to fight. Legion killed PvP and BFA is trying to bring it back. However I question a lot of its systems they are trying to implement to do that.

This is why players want Classic or WotLK servers. We want great PvP again in an MMORPG. WotLK was the perfect expansion for PvP and PvE and they just need to duplicate that again in order for participation to increase.

The only thing BFA has going for it is that it isn't Legion. I took over a year off from Legion like most people as it was unplayable. I will give BFA a 3 week trial at launch and if it isn't good then I will just take another year off like most of the PvP community does and continue to play other games. Hoping that one day World of Warcraft will return to its former greatness. We can hope.
06/28/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Abombanation
06/28/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Xadie
Getting gear won't feel the same or lvling up if everyone is on an even playing field. Those days are gone but if the return means more wpvp or pvp participation, I'm in.


The return won't be more WPvP though. There won't be as much participation just less people playing. The best PvP and highest participation we ever had also had the biggest power gaps in gear. You see Gear was never a barrier to PvP it is the glue that holds PvP together. We saw in Legion by removing the importance of Gear mainly PvP Gear what it did. It drove down PvP participation to all time lows.

The first move was great to remove templates as they get in the way of an RPG and of course are disgusting. However people still play this game to gain power and Gear. It is the driving force and if you remove that then participation will suffer just like Legion. There just won't be any reason to play. So you can wonder around in open world ready for battle but there just won't be that many player to fight. Legion killed PvP and BFA is trying to bring it back. However I question a lot of its systems they are trying to implement to do that.

This is why players want Classic or WotLK servers. We want great PvP again in an MMORPG. WotLK was the perfect expansion for PvP and PvE and they just need to duplicate that again in order for participation to increase.


I think pvp participation is low because the game is old and drawn out, classes have become boring due to pruning. I don't even play my Warrior anymore cause it's such a boring class now which has also led to me not caring about arena as much anymore. I just log on a bit and gank players on my Monk or Rogue, probably going to play a Survival Hunter in BFA.
If they go back to a system where pvp gear matters and you earn pieces of gear by obtaining a certain rating I'd be ok with it, but I also don't mind what they are trying to do with Warmode. I think we should see how it all plays out, if it turns out to be a flop like Ashran was. Lesson learned.
So the goal with "scaling" in PvP is merely to reduce the power gap between players where appropriate. In PvE, this is not a big deal. Theoretically if you gain 200% player power from the first tier of an expansion to the last in PvE, none of the creatures are going to complain. But if you have just leveled up (or are in the process of leveling in a zone with max level players), the power difference may not "feel fair."

The point of the scaling changes is not to make it so levels or gear don't matter. A player who is higher level than you and/or has a higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.

We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.

Thanks for your feedback and testing on this feature, it's helped out a ton!
First thank you so much for your response on this Phalanx I was starting to go crazy and we needed you to chime in and be a voice of reason :)

06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
The point of the scaling changes is not to make it so levels or gear don't matter. A player who is higher level than you and/or has a higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.


Exactly that is the point of scaling however Gear and Progression have to have an impact in PvP like you said. It is why we play an MMORPG. Gearing in PvP is a essential part of the competition.

06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.


That sounds so much better!!!! The focus should be on warmode between characters lvling to max level in BFA. Everyone is 110 and they turn Warmode on to race to 120. So they can start their adventure of Max level play. Really glad your focus is on this! Now we can really fine tune it to make for a great Warmode experience.

So the goal with "scaling" in PvP is merely to reduce the power gap between players where appropriate.


A key point is "Where appropriate" Scaling between a 112 vs 116 in Warmode questing in the same zone is an appropriate scenario. That is where it matters.
06/28/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Xadie
I think pvp participation is low because the game is old and drawn out, classes have become boring due to pruning. I don't even play my Warrior anymore cause it's such a boring class now which has also led to me not caring about arena as much anymore. I just log on a bit and gank players on my Monk or Rogue, probably going to play a Survival Hunter in BFA.


Yes pruning and lack of options hurt. However I just couldn't play Legion because of templates. I couldn't build a character that fit my play style so I didn't play. I have to be able to make a build that I enjoy. If I can't do that then it isn't an MMORPG.

At least in BFA I can make a build that is suitable to something I enjoy. I can put gems, enchants and trinkets on that will make my build. There are Azerite armors that can further change my build options. So this is promising! Especially compared to Legion that has zero options.
06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
So the goal with "scaling" in PvP is merely to reduce the power gap between players where appropriate. In PvE, this is not a big deal. Theoretically if you gain 200% player power from the first tier of an expansion to the last in PvE, none of the creatures are going to complain. But if you have just leveled up (or are in the process of leveling in a zone with max level players), the power difference may not "feel fair."

The point of the scaling changes is not to make it so levels or gear don't matter. A player who is higher level than you and/or has a higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.

We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.

Thanks for your feedback and testing on this feature, it's helped out a ton!


Thanks for the information on the matter, I like what you all are trying to do with Warmode.
Can you clarify for the lower levels? Will it scale in azeroth from 20 to 60 and 60 to 80 in bc/wotlk zones etc? I would like having a chance to win if I’m 61 and someone is 76 since we are leveling in the same zones.

Best case scenario I would prefer a good scaling or something to discourage the 120 ganking level 20-110 but I guess it will never happen. I agree a 60 should not destroy a 120 but he should be able to outplay it or at least be able to escape or group on one.
That's a shame to hear they aren't moving forward with the low level v high level stuff. Seems like a very poorly informed decision.

I hope they have a back up plan to prevent 120s from one shorting level 40s then getting flagged as the assassin and having a bunch of low level characters flocking to them and getting mowed down.

To me, that scaling seems mandatory otherwise low level warmode is going to be a mess, especially because so many times when I get ganked and bring my main out there, we are in some different phase some how. Happened all the time in legion.

Hopefully it will at least scale level 20 to 60 right? Otherwise, again warmode leveling will he impossible if you just get 1 shot all the time.
06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.


While I agree a lv60 being able to play on an even field against a lv120 is silly, I feel this change will effectively kill Warmode for every bracket except 110-120.

Some of us actually enjoy old world content and I was thrilled at the idea of WPvP with my lv60 twinks. Specially, the idea of having some challenge, I don't really want to turn on Warmode only to find a couple of lv30s around Tarren Mill that I could one shot, I wanted them to stand a chance, bring some friends and engage on WPvP.

Please reconsider this change, if you don't want lv120 keyboard turners angry because they are getting farmed by a lv70 in full Sunwell gear that is perfectly understandable, make it so lv120s have a much bigger advantage (so it would be extremely hard, but possible, for a lv100 and under to kill him)
What’s the intended size of the power gap?

For example a fresh 110 with questing greens vs a fully geared 120.

I know you probably can’t give exact figures but what should it “feel” like? 10% difference? 50% difference?
I'm not really sure how a level 60 being able to fight a 120 enables more wPvP? This just discourages anyone who isn't confident in their pvp skills to turn it off when doing old world content. Or turn it off because they don't want to deal with the hassle.

I think it's a wash.
06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
So the goal with "scaling" in PvP is merely to reduce the power gap between players where appropriate. In PvE, this is not a big deal. Theoretically if you gain 200% player power from the first tier of an expansion to the last in PvE, none of the creatures are going to complain. But if you have just leveled up (or are in the process of leveling in a zone with max level players), the power difference may not "feel fair."

The point of the scaling changes is not to make it so levels or gear don't matter. A player who is higher level than you and/or has a higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.

We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.

Thanks for your feedback and testing on this feature, it's helped out a ton!


As long as BG and warmode scaling is at most 15% difference most people will be satisfied. Not having to inspect every person to know if you team is going to lose or being undergeared enough where you cant even think about questing out in warmode because youll be smacked down is and will be nice.

I am still very skeptical on PVE trinkets in PvP though as some of them have way to good of effects vs PvP trinkets.

The scaling you guys are doing is great and now that we only have scaling and no templates people can get the stats they want without the old days of people being one-two shot.
06/28/2018 05:49 PMPosted by Phalanx
So the goal with "scaling" in PvP is merely to reduce the power gap between players where appropriate. In PvE, this is not a big deal. Theoretically if you gain 200% player power from the first tier of an expansion to the last in PvE, none of the creatures are going to complain. But if you have just leveled up (or are in the process of leveling in a zone with max level players), the power difference may not "feel fair."

The point of the scaling changes is not to make it so levels or gear don't matter. A player who is higher level than you and/or has a higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.

We were experimenting with using the system to also work between much larger level gaps (i.e. a level 60 player vs a level 120 player), but have decided to only utilize it for players at level 110 to 120 for now.

Thanks for your feedback and testing on this feature, it's helped out a ton!
THANK THE WOW GODS!!! Seriously thank you soooo much.. i was thinking i was gonna have to play classic and never look back!!!

This is an MMORPG!!

GEAR AND YOUR LVL SHOULD MATTER!!!!

Your skill should always be he deciding factor but never ever ever should gear mean nothing.

Gear is the number one reward and drive for progression and for wanting to complete stuff.... take it away i lose my drive to keep playing.

Might as well go play heros of the storm
06/28/2018 09:18 PMPosted by Axellent
I'm not really sure how a level 60 being able to fight a 120 enables more wPvP? This just discourages anyone who isn't confident in their pvp skills to turn it off when doing old world content. Or turn it off because they don't want to deal with the hassle.

I think it's a wash.

Disclaimer: I do believe gear and level should matter, but it should not be the only deciding factor.

Being able to fight someone regardless of the level difference is what could cause WPvP to be more prevalent.

Consider the following scenario
Vanilla zones scale up to lv60 (except for starter zones, those go up to lv20) that means that Player1, a lv55 Alliance Void Elf, can go ahead and grind his way through Ashenvale. This particular zone has quests available as early as level 15. BfA launches and a horde player decides to level his shiny new Zandalari Troll, he is lv22 when he encounters Player1. Both players are flagged for Warmode because they want the increased experience for that cool looking Heritage armor.

After being killed and camped by Player1, the lv22 troll realizes there is no point to enabling Warmode while there are higher level players roaming around and whatever increased experience he got is offset by the fact that he lost time getting killed and now must return to Orgrimmar to unflag.

Now you could say that Player1 was having a great time camping that lowbie troll, so surely he thinks Warmode is success, right? Sure, until he gets to Hellfire Peninsula (level 58-80 zone) where someone leveling his lv72 Forsaken DK is going to kill him. Now Player1 turns off Warmode and the cycle continues until eventually most people run around unflagged being unable to participate in a feature that could be designed for the entire player base.

If that is the case, then what is the point of having the Warmode feature on any level that is not 120? Do notice that I say 120 because if you think there won't be lv110 twinks with legendaries (that made Legion WPvP both ridiculous and fun at times) you are sorely mistaken. You may have escaped the wrath of lv60 Mr.Twinkertong, but you will still get one shotted by a lv110 rogue wearing Mantle of the Master Assassin and then you, a lv120, turn off Warmode, because what is the point when you cannot fight back.

Thus WPvP participation drops.
My interpretation of levels is that they're the numerical representation of your hero's journey. You start off with nothing, knowing nothing. By the end of it you've done some pretty impressive things and you've grown tremendously. With the gearing process being the sequal to the story. You're a badass but you still have room to grow.

I can't think of many stories where the hero in act I possessed the ability/power/knowledge to handle the act 3 conflict. If they could it renders the hero's journey pointless.

Now obviously this isn't a 1 to 1 comparison. In a game you can still have fun a long the way but as it concerns the narrative this is true.

So when you see this play out ingame it's very jarring and upsetting for a lot of people who care about the rpg aspect of the game.

Imagine losing to a past you 20-30 levels lower. It wouldn't make sense and it would diminish the time you put in to get to your current point.

Additionally I'm not convinced that its a positive change for the folks who don't care about the RP and narrative conflicts scaling presents.

Sure, scaling adds accessibility but too much is a bad thing. I said before, motivation and discovery are trade offs to accessibility.

When you see someone stronger than you or want to progress it's supposed to inspire you to earn those things they have. With scaling you skip a step and you never have to play the game to earn those things.
THANK YOU FOR THE RESPONSE! I had the above post sitting in a tab and published it before noticing the blue post so a lot of it is moot.

Thank you again for the clarification less than 3.
higher iLevel than you are going to have an advantage.

Why?
MDIs and arena tournaments have locked item level for a reason.

Gear should not be the deciding factor in pvp. It has not worked well in previous expansions.

This seems like a HUGE step backward / repeating past mistakes.
X class with mythic raid gear, mythic trinkets etc.
"have to pve to pvp"

even if you attempt to scale it you still have:
weapon ilevel - min/max dmg or spell power
azerite gear traits (different drops from X mode)
trinket procs (op raid trinkets again?)
X stat advantage for X item level
=
add it up and the difference will be greater than the old WoD pvp system that actually worked.
.
.
People seem to think that allowing a gear advantage will reincentivize pvp. It creates an unnecessary barrier for non-fotm, new players, alts, or people behind on gear without time to play. Those players will not be able to compete whether it is rated x mode or random bgs.

Kill legion templates
Adjust spells without touching primary/secondary stats
Scale gear so all players are competitive instead of "no chance at ever winning"
Scale weapons/traits/trinkets accordingly and not like legion

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