Holy Paladin: Lack of Interesting Gameplay

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I think the judgement change was actually an attempt at dumbing down the class a little more. It seems to me like nearly every class/spec got made even simpler in the transition from Legion > BFA. Now with the judgement change you can't really mess up doing damage as a holy paladin since it doesn't matter when you smack the enemy around now. Blizz could have easily adjusted numbers to ensure the damage output was balanced.
06/23/2018 04:33 AMPosted by Quietguy
06/23/2018 02:31 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
Higher cd on crusader strike and judgement debuff nerf wasn’t due to ac. It was collateral damage from ret.


I'm going to disagree with you on this one. However I'm fully aware that I can not prove the changes were because of AC. But you are unable to prove the changes were because of ret.

Blizzard has the ability to make shared abilities between specs act differently depending on the spec. The fact that they haven't and seeing how it effects Crusader's Might and Judgment of Light and then the further nerfing of both those abilities is a clear indication of their lack of foresight.


That’s exactly what I’m saying it is. A huge lack of foresight.

Before we knew AC was insanely overpowered those changes already happened which is how I know it wasn’t aimed at AC. The judgement change happened before raid testing and the cs recharge increase was one of the first ret changes iirc (also before testing).

Also, the main complaint from ret Paladins was the judgement mastery and judgement window. So they changed both for ret which changed judgement for Holy at the same time. Maybe they just didn’t want judgement to act differently between the 3 specs? I’m not sure.

As for JoL, that had to be nerfed. After the fixes it received it was a bit ridiculous for passive healing.

The only nerf ac directly got was the CD increase and mana increase. Everything else seemed to be collateral from the ret changes because they didn’t alter Holy specific CS or holy specific judgement. These changes as I said earlier were also before raid testing, I don’t think they’d nerf CM or AC before seeing any data. Another thing that makes me believe these changes weren’t aimed at holy is CM wasn’t overpowered in any way. It was fine and competitive with the other T1 talents.

TLDR: I think they just overlooked CS/judgement for Holy when they changed it for ret or maybe they didn’t want judgement to function differently between ret/prot/Holy. Honestly though it doesn’t matter because they’re not going anywhere.

I’d personally like to see some nerfs to AC or slight buffs to SW/awakening to make that row competitive. SW is a bit closer to AC now but not enough.
06/23/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
As for JoL, that had to be nerfed. After the fixes it received it was a bit ridiculous for passive healing.


Judgment of Light was always perceived as paladin padding by other healers. At least I got a lot of grief for using it.

In my thinking though, what made it the best choice was the synergy with the ring, the judgment buff and doing damage. Its other benefits are its high HPM and being an instant we can use on the move. The only downside to it was the using a GCD and getting behind on a target needing ST healing. But we all know we were ST juggernauts in Legion and we are never more than a GCD away from hitting someone with big heal.

Losing the ring and nerfing the judgment buff are already a huge nerf to JoL. Reducing its numbers seems like a lack of consideration that was more than enough of a nerf to bring it in line. Right now it doesn't look we're going to be the ST gods we were in Legion so we can get behind on ST healing so the opportunity cost of using JoL will be taken into consideration.

To be fair though the nerf to its proc count could be a buff in dungeons. One of the reasons not to take it in dungeons was that the dps couldnt consume all of the buffs fast enough before it could be reapplied. But that comes down to getting the healing numbers right on the proc. Which I am pessimistic about. Partly because there hasn't been any indication that aura of mercy is going to be tuned. Which makes me think they are more than happy to leave dead talents in the tree.
06/23/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Taeldoriàn
As for JoL, that had to be nerfed. After the fixes it received it was a bit ridiculous for passive healing.


Judgment of Light was always perceived as paladin padding by other healers. At least I got a lot of grief for using it.

In my thinking though, what made it the best choice was the synergy with the ring, the judgment buff and doing damage. Its other benefits are its high HPM and being an instant we can use on the move.

Losing the ring and nerfing the judgment buff are already a huge nerf to JoL. Reducing its numbers seems like a lack of understanding that was more than enough of a nerf to bring it in line.


I kind of agree. It was viable and would be viable without the ring though. If you consider the row it’s on, if it stayed in its current condition you’d probably rarely take the other 2 talents. They just wouldn’t compare to JoL pre nerf.

However as it stands now all 3 are balanced well. Can take Holy prism on taloc for example or on ghuun without feeling like it’s a bad choice. I think that tier of talents is pretty good overall.
I don't see Holy Prism used much. The fact that JoL and HA make AC even better makes me think they will almost always be taken.
06/23/2018 05:01 PMPosted by Quietguy
I don't see Holy Prism used much. The fact that JoL and HA make AC even better makes me think they will almost always be taken.


You don’t really need to stack HA with AC though and that’s the only way it has any interaction with it. You can pop HA before ac to reduce gcd but stacking them will waste uptime on at least one of the CDs due to the gcd so that’s not really ideal.

JoL doesn’t really have any ties to AC. You may not even need to refresh stacks when you pop AC and use judgement. It has some synergy but it doesn’t make AC better by any means. It has no relation to AC like it did with Ilterendi.

Prism is great for Ghuun and Taloc. Logs I’ve seen from the discord and my own personal logs as well as the spreadsheet show that all 3 of those talents are competitive. Just need to plan a bit more with prism than you do with JoL. Prism will have some instances where it’s a good choice.
06/23/2018 05:07 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn
You don’t really need to stack HA with AC though and that’s the only way it has any interaction with it. You can pop HA before ac to reduce gcd but stacking them will waste uptime on at least one of the CDs due to the gcd so that’s not really ideal.


HA lowers the CD, through haste, of Judgment and Crusaders Strike. Allowing you to fit more into the AC window. Using HA in the AC window will probably be more healing then the loss of using it only every 2 minutes as opposed to every 1.5 minutes. But it depends on whether enough healing is required to justify it.
JoL's benefit is simply that you are already casting judgment during AC so its opportunity cost is swallowed up within the AC opportunity cost. Making it more healing without any additional cost.
Keep making the hpal QQ threads because it's working. Of all the most OP healers that continue with losing the least of all the healers and then keep getting buffs moving toward release. After the last few sets of changes posted in the beta I lost interest completely and just stopped playing. It is clear that nobody plays the game, looks at the numbers, or cares. I check in every now and again to see what changes and I was not surprised to see more holy paladin QQ threads after they continue to be buffed. I guess blizz knows that all of the healers that reroll have probably played hpal by now so its an easy pick to make playable.
06/23/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Quietguy
06/23/2018 05:07 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn
You don’t really need to stack HA with AC though and that’s the only way it has any interaction with it. You can pop HA before ac to reduce gcd but stacking them will waste uptime on at least one of the CDs due to the gcd so that’s not really ideal.


HA lowers the CD, through haste, of Judgment and Crusaders Strike. Allowing you to fit more into the AC window. Using HA in the AC window will probably be more healing then the loss of using it only every 2 minutes as opposed to every 1.5 minutes. But it depends on whether enough healing is required to justify it.
JoL's benefit is simply that you are already casting judgment during AC so its opportunity cost is swallowed up within the AC opportunity cost. Making it more healing without any additional cost.


That’s not a benefit tied to AC though. Whether you have ac or not, you’ll be using judgement if you take JoL. It has some synergy but there’s really no interaction between the two. AC doesn’t do anything for JoL like Ilterendi did. You’re just doing what you were already doing with said talent. I do understand and see what you’re saying though, it does have that bit of synergy.

As for HA coupled with AC, it all depends as you said. If you really need the haste during the AC window then it’ll be justified but generally pairing HA with AC is a bit of a waste from my experience. Even more so with the GCD now but even without it I don’t think you’d wanna pair them often.

They’re all pretty well balanced overall imo. Spreadsheet shows this according to those who work on it and in practice it seems to be that way too. It’ll vary fight to fight ofc but they’ll all see use, though situations where you could use Prism you could most likely also use JoL. Taloc for example, all 3 are viable but prism/HA are better than JoL since it’s near useless in p2. Same with Ghuun and a few others. It may not see too much use but it won’t be dead like in legion.

I don’t really have any issues with our talents aside from balance issues with the AW modifier row and the aura row. Personally I think devo needs to be baseline and 3 new talents should be introduced if they can’t balance the aura row properly.

My issues are with general gameplay. It’s boring, it’s dull, there’s nothing going on. We have 1 random proc and that’s it. I’d like to see active procs similar to Daybreak because they add more interaction between abilities which is something we lack almost completely.
06/23/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn
That’s not a benefit tied to AC though. Whether you have ac or not, you’ll be using judgement if you take JoL. It has some synergy but there’s really no interaction between the two. AC doesn’t do anything for JoL like Ilterendi did. You’re just doing what you were already doing with said talent. I do understand and see what you’re saying though, it does have that bit of synergy.

As for HA coupled with AC, it all depends as you said. If you really need the haste during the AC window then it’ll be justified but generally pairing HA with AC is a bit of a waste from my experience. Even more so with the GCD now but even without it I don’t think you’d wanna pair them often.


Yup I agree.

06/23/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn
They’re all pretty well balanced overall imo. Spreadsheet shows this according to those who work on it and in practice it seems to be that way too. It’ll vary fight to fight ofc but they’ll all see use, though situations where you could use Prism you could most likely also use JoL. Taloc for example, all 3 are viable but prism/HA are better than JoL since it’s near useless in p2. Same with Ghuun and a few others. It may not see too much use but it won’t be dead like in legion.


Yeah Holy Prism not having any interaction with the artifact hurt it. I think also with Light of Dawn being less powerful in BFA having an additional AOE heal with Holy Prism will come in handy.
06/23/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Torros
Keep making the hpal QQ threads because it's working. Of all the most OP healers that continue with losing the least of all the healers and then keep getting buffs moving toward release. After the last few sets of changes posted in the beta I lost interest completely and just stopped playing. It is clear that nobody plays the game, looks at the numbers, or cares. I check in every now and again to see what changes and I was not surprised to see more holy paladin QQ threads after they continue to be buffed. I guess blizz knows that all of the healers that reroll have probably played hpal by now so its an easy pick to make playable.


Hi.

I know my original post is long so let me quote this part directly for you to read:

"Now please don't misunderstand my complaints, i am referring to gameplay and gameplay only. I am fully aware that Holy Paladins have been lucky to be viable in almost all game content. I am not asking for buffs, nor am i asking for a return to Holy Power."

I am curious about these buffs you say we keep getting, considering last Build nerfed Holy Light by 10%, and there has been no substantial changes since Avenging Crusader was made a PvE talent months ago.
06/23/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Vyrbur
06/23/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Torros
Keep making the hpal QQ threads because it's working. Of all the most OP healers that continue with losing the least of all the healers and then keep getting buffs moving toward release. After the last few sets of changes posted in the beta I lost interest completely and just stopped playing. It is clear that nobody plays the game, looks at the numbers, or cares. I check in every now and again to see what changes and I was not surprised to see more holy paladin QQ threads after they continue to be buffed. I guess blizz knows that all of the healers that reroll have probably played hpal by now so its an easy pick to make playable.


Hi.

I know my original post is long so let me quote this part directly for you to read:

"Now please don't misunderstand my complaints, i am referring to gameplay and gameplay only. I am fully aware that Holy Paladins have been lucky to be viable in almost all game content. I am not asking for buffs, nor am i asking for a return to Holy Power."

I am curious about these buffs you say we keep getting, considering last Build nerfed Holy Light by 10%, and there has been no substantial changes since Avenging Crusader was made a PvE talent months ago.


It's funny how being so biased causes you to look past the 3 buffs that came with the 10% (which is actually a 6.6%) nerf to holy light is packaged with 3 buffs to mana (2 of which are 20% buffs).

Oh and this is from the previous build:

Divine Steed Leap atop your Charger for 3 sec, increasing movement speed by 100%. Usable while indoors or in combat. 1 charge. Instant. 60 sec recharge. 1 charge. 45 sec recharge. 1 charge.
Flash of Light Expends a large amount of mana to quickly heal a friendly target for [ 120% [ 125% of Spell Power ]. 20% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 1.5 sec cast.
Holy Shock Triggers a burst of Light on the target, dealing [ 90% of Spell Power ] Holy damage to an enemy, or [ 130% [ 150% of Spell Power ] healing to an ally. Has an additional 25% 30% critical effect chance. 100 yd range. Instant.
Holy Shock Triggers a burst of Light on the target, dealing [ 90% of Spell Power ] Holy damage to an enemy, or [ 130% [ 150% of Spell Power ] healing to an ally. Has an additional 25% 30% critical effect chance. 100 yd range. Instant.

Holy
Aura Mastery Empowers your chosen aura and increases its radius to 40 yards for 6 8 sec. Devotion Aura: all affected allies gain [ 20 + 25% of Spell Power ]% damage reduction. Aura of Sacrifice: causes 30% of damage to be redirected to you and reduced by 75%. Aura of Mercy: has no target limit and healing increased by 100%. Paladin - Holy Spec. Instant. 3 min cooldown.
Holy Light An efficient spell, healing a friendly target for [ 140% [ 150% of Spell Power ]. Paladin - Holy Spec. 13% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 2.5 sec cast.
Holy Shock Holy Shock has an additional 25% 30% chance to crit. Paladin - Holy Spec.
Holy Shock Triggers a burst of Light on the target, dealing [ 90% of Spell Power ] Holy damage to an enemy, or [ 130% [ 150% of Spell Power ] healing to an ally. Has an additional 25% 30% critical effect chance. Paladin - Holy Spec. 10% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. Instant. 9 sec cooldown.
Light of Dawn Unleashes a wave of holy energy, healing up to 5 injured allies within a 15 yd frontal cone for [ 45% [ 55% of Spell Power ]. Paladin - Holy Spec. 14% of Base Mana. Instant. 12 sec cooldown.

I'm sure that part of the boredom of the play style is that you are so OP that you don't really need to use all of the ridiculous cooldowns you have. I guess with beacon of virtue who really needs anything else? Just bubble when you screw up, pop beacon when more than 1 person takes damage, and move out of the fire. Maybe if you were less OP you wouldn't be so damn bored...
06/23/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Torros
I'm sure that part of the boredom of the play style is that you are so OP that you don't really need to use all of the ridiculous cooldowns you have. I guess with beacon of virtue who really needs anything else? Just bubble when you screw up, pop beacon when more than 1 person takes damage, and move out of the fire. Maybe if you were less OP you wouldn't be so damn bored...

Just quoting the last part for less clutter.. But I think the discussion and complains are not about the power level but about the gameplay being boring which is very valid concern, no number buffs is gonna change that.

If their healing model, survivability, utility, and CDs makes them OP for certain content (or all content even) that's a different subject which needs to be addressing by proper balancing of those factors among all healers but that's not the focus here nor the reasons for the complains... I don't play much Holy Paladin anymore and not really interested in playing them again, and I would even agree they are looking to be Top Tier for Dungeons and "mandatory" for Raids but that doesn't make the demand for gameplay to be more interesting and engaging any less valid.

The OP does a great job at explaining the issue and I agree with his view, I used to main Holy Paladin (MOP and before) but when I tested it in Legion pre-patch (no artifact or leggos at that point) found it way too basic and boring so moved on to other healers and have barely touched it in Legion but the artifact and legendaries indeed added a lot more to the gameplay which many players enjoyed.. Coming into BFA they have lost all those interactions and the gamplay is again very basic and pretty boring so the concerns Holy Paladin players have are totally valid.
06/23/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Torros
I'm sure that part of the boredom of the play style is that you are so OP that you don't really need to use all of the ridiculous cooldowns you have. I guess with beacon of virtue who really needs anything else? Just bubble when you screw up, pop beacon when more than 1 person takes damage, and move out of the fire. Maybe if you were less OP you wouldn't be so damn bored...


Everything you listed is tuning, they have begun tuning all specs not just Holy Paladins, meaning it's unlikely to see any gameplay changes before release, and like the majority of other specs we will have to wait till 8.1 to see any significant changes. My fear is how many people will wait that long? I will have to play my Paladin and Monk equally so my Paladin doesn't fall behind in case 8.1 makes them fun enough to be my main again.

I use all my spells and all my cooldowns when the appropriate situation arises and yet i find myself still not having as much fun as previous expansions.
It is important to remember this is a Beta discussion, not Live, any thoughts and feelings you have about Live Holy Paladins should be abandoned, as many specs play differently, feel differently, and are balanced very differently. For example, as others have pointed out, Monks are currently better Tank healers then Paladins.

You mentioned Virtue so i assume your disdain for Holy Paladins is born from their strengths in Mythic Plus Dungeons as that is the only place that spell is used. Since you are a Druid i struggle to understand your complaints, as you are desired as much as Holy Paladins in high Mythic keys.

However i do sincerely hope that all healers in Battle for Azeroth are equally desired in high Mythic Dungeons, it's an issue that should have been fixed in Legion.

But as that doesn't relate to Holy Paladin gameplay, which this thread is about, we can save such discourse for another thread.
Another build with no changes.

No developer response since April.
No changes since Avenging Crusader was introduced.
No new spell effects or animations.

Now the guild Method has ranked Holy Paladins as the worst Healers in Battle for Azeroth Raiding.

With 8.0 already on the background downloader it is looking like the first Tier of Raiding will be very rough for us Holy Paladins.
Hey All -

After recently getting invited to beta, i have been grinding my H Pally to 120, and only leveled by grinding dungeons. When i started, Holy Light had this great animation where you opened a book and basically pulled the heal spell out of it, but now its gone! Was that animation only temporary?
07/16/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Lightman
Hey All -

After recently getting invited to beta, i have been grinding my H Pally to 120, and only leveled by grinding dungeons. When i started, Holy Light had this great animation where you opened a book and basically pulled the heal spell out of it, but now its gone! Was that animation only temporary?

They removed it a few builds ago. There were some races it didn't work with and I guess they took it off to work on it and have run out of time to get it completed.
[quote="207644883929"]There were some races it didn't work with and I guess they took it off to work on it and have run out of time to get it completed.


Heartbreaking
I can agree with this, I have stated many similar things in the Holy Paladin Feedback thread I won't re-iterate.

The class is dull at its baseline, this was masked via legendarys, set bonuses and talents. But as talent balance is in constant flux if our class ends up being dull when XYZ talents are "optimal" I don't necessarily think thats healthy. I would love for some additional depth or decision making to be made to the class at its baseline level.

A portion of this issue is probably due to the addition of Light of the Martyr and how little it interacts with our kit. I know for me personally I would love it if Light of the Martyr become more important to basic gameplay *cough* Maraad's *cough* but it seems like we have this button that just doesn't need to be there.

Light of Dawn also is different from most AoE heals (it's not spammable, nor do we have a spammable AoE heal) so it is strange that Light of Dawn has no interaction with the rest of our abilities.
Tying LoD into the rest of our kit could be a great idea. Maybe tack it onto the infusion of light proc for boosted range or more healing.

There is a lot of very simple things they could do to spice the gameplay up.

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