Normalizing perversion of life

Story Forum
Since when did undeath become something to be desired? I saw a suggestion the other day that it should be offered to horde soldiers as a means to fight again and that anyone that reject the gift is somehow less loyal?

People seem to forget that forsaken have very little choice in the matter of their current state of affairs? Many of whom refer to their current state as a curse.

Ps I don’t consider ‘obey the dark lady to die’ to be a choice.
What is Life if not just perversion of Death?

It's all relative, man.
Depends on whether death or undeath frightens a character more. Or if you're so hyper-patriotic that you're willing to sacrifice your own afterlife to continue serving in your current one.

It's true that current forsaken had no choice in being raised, but it's a little different if someone's alive and actively consenting to have their corpse raised. It might still be manipulative and distasteful, but it's still that person's own choice to make.
Two things
1. Most of the time the afterlife is not a pleasant place, and even then, many others have reasons to want to stay in the world.

2. Forsaken are given a choice in Tirisfal glades, it's just the later quest designers don't show it, for reason i don't comprehend.
07/15/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Kheldan
What is Life if not just perversion of Death?

It's all relative, man.

There's a difference between death and undeath. Undeath isn't a natural occurring state where as life and death are.
some people have been choosing undeath since as early as the third war.
The irony of a void elf talking about the perversion of life.
07/15/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Heirophant
I saw a suggestion the other day that it should be offered to horde soldiers as a means to fight again

Sounds good to me.

Members of the Horde who want their peaceful afterlife of wisdom and paradise can have it, but Spirit Walkers, Deathspeakers, and Pyremasters should talk to the spirits of the departed. I'm sure many of the ancestors would find no greater honor in the ability to fight for their family's home again.

Of course, this should be settled on a case-by-case basis, not just mass distributed.
07/15/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Lena
The irony of a void elf talking about the perversion of life.


The void is an aspect of the fundamental forces of the universe, it’s no more unnatural than the light.

To suggest is void elves is a perversion is perhaps incorrect? Half the time I’m a holy priest. X) dun get me started on the lore of void elves for there r none :(
07/15/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Kheldan
What is Life if not just perversion of Death?

It's all relative, man.


Life n death is a natural cycle, death begets the next generation of life. Undeath breaks the cycle...

Haven’t you seen the lion king, am sure simba’s Dad talk about the undead
I dunno...if becoming Forsaken was an option IRL I'd seriously consider it. I bet most of us would.
07/15/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Carmageddon
I dunno...if becoming Forsaken was an option IRL I'd seriously consider it. I bet most of us would.


So u wanna b the guy without a lower jaw with his tongue hanging out? With your parts degrading overtime n needing a constant supply of fresh parts to continue your existence?

Or is being forsaken some romantic ideal where you look like sylvanas or nathanos?
07/15/2018 05:51 PMPosted by Heirophant
So u wanna b the guy without a lower jaw with his tongue hanging out? With your parts degrading overtime n needing a constant supply of fresh parts to continue your existence?

Some people, yes, they would want that. If immortality, or at least a dramatically increased lifespan, were on the table, it's a choice many would make.

We can't all be Elves and Draenei.
07/15/2018 05:51 PMPosted by Heirophant
07/15/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Carmageddon
I dunno...if becoming Forsaken was an option IRL I'd seriously consider it. I bet most of us would.


So u wanna b the guy without a lower jaw with his tongue hanging out? With your parts degrading overtime n needing a constant supply of fresh parts to continue your existence?

Or is being forsaken some romantic ideal where you look like sylvanas or nathanos?


Hmmm...you went straight to the worst case scenario, didn't you?

But assuming becoming Forsaken was a viable option, I presume most people would like to have it done immediately after dying, so that they were preserved in much the same state.

But I'd certainly like to have the option to decide for myself.
07/15/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Heirophant
07/15/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Lena
The irony of a void elf talking about the perversion of life.


The void is an aspect of the fundamental forces of the universe, it’s no more unnatural than the light.

To suggest is void elves is a perversion is perhaps incorrect? Half the time I’m a holy priest. X) dun get me started on the lore of void elves for there r none :(


Decay and Death are listed as a fundamental force as well and Undead as entities of that force. You cant use that argument to say void elves aren't perversions but undead are.

Frankly defining what is 'natural' and 'unnatural' in the Warcraft universe isn't a particularly simple thing. Those states seem pretty fluid. The most natural state for Azeroth would be a world with no life on it save elementals consumed in a constant war for control. That was Azeroth's natural state. Its current existence is due to artificial intervention by titans.

Its not like the Alliance doesn't use undead and necromancy themselves. That ship sailed the moment they invited Death Knights into their ranks.
07/15/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Syriyna
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The void is an aspect of the fundamental forces of the universe, it’s no more unnatural than the light.

To suggest is void elves is a perversion is perhaps incorrect? Half the time I’m a holy priest. X) dun get me started on the lore of void elves for there r none :(


Decay and Death are listed as a fundamental force as well and Undead as entities of that force. You cant use that argument to say void elves aren't perversions but undead are.

Frankly defining what is 'natural' and 'unnatural' in the Warcraft universe isn't a particularly simple thing. Those states seem pretty fluid. The most natural state for Azeroth would be a world with no life on it save elementals consumed in a constant war for control. That was Azeroth's natural state. Its current existence is due to artificial intervention by titans.

Its not like the Alliance doesn't use undead and necromancy themselves. That ship sailed the moment they invited Death Knights into their ranks.


I’m not saying the alliance is any more right or wrong, I’m saying we (every1) is normalizing the state of undeath. I don’t see everything with faction lenses.

The nature of death is different to undeath (again, the lion king), I accept life/death balance, just as I accept light/void, n fel/arcane, but I cannot accept Undeath as being part of the natural order.

Undeath prevents death if anything?
07/15/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Heirophant
The nature of death is different to undeath

What would you consider incorporeal spirits? Dead or undead? In game, they're often tagged as Undead mobs. What do you think? And what of the Shadowlands?

The Wild Gods are native to the Emerald Dream, which is not Azeroth and is a realm considered parallel to the Shadowlands. Are undead walking in the mortal plane any different from Wild Gods walking in the moral plane?
07/15/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Heirophant
I’m not saying the alliance is any more right or wrong, I’m saying we (every1) is normalizing the state of undeath.


Its totally okay and awesome for characters to burn someone alive, I don't think undeath is soooooo abnormal.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Decay and Death are listed as a fundamental force as well and Undead as entities of that force. You cant use that argument to say void elves aren't perversions but undead are.

Frankly defining what is 'natural' and 'unnatural' in the Warcraft universe isn't a particularly simple thing. Those states seem pretty fluid. The most natural state for Azeroth would be a world with no life on it save elementals consumed in a constant war for control. That was Azeroth's natural state. Its current existence is due to artificial intervention by titans.

Its not like the Alliance doesn't use undead and necromancy themselves. That ship sailed the moment they invited Death Knights into their ranks.


I’m not saying the alliance is any more right or wrong, I’m saying we (every1) is normalizing the state of undeath. I don’t see everything with faction lenses.

The nature of death is different to undeath (again, the lion king), I accept life/death balance, just as I accept light/void, n fel/arcane, but I cannot accept Undeath as being part of the natural order.

Undeath prevents death if anything?


On the cosmic chart your basing your natural order on, Undead are listed as entities of the realm of Death/Decay.

My understanding, which could be wrong, is Undeath is actually more a form of negative life. If life is 1 then undeath is -1. It is actually a state beyond death. Since I don't have the chronicles through I am not 100% sure about that.

And as I pointed out, the very state of life on Azeroth is not natural and is due to heavy titan interference. The elemental planes are artificial.

07/15/2018 05:51 PMPosted by Heirophant
So u wanna b the guy without a lower jaw with his tongue hanging out? With your parts degrading overtime n needing a constant supply of fresh parts to continue your existence?


People way over state this basing it off BtS. The part in the book where we see a guy getting a hand replaced, its the first time he has had to replace his hand and he lost his old one, not to decay, but to a smelting accident. If he was living he would be a cripple even if he had survived the accident.

BtS raises the point that Forsaken wear out eventually. As the Apocathary attaching the hand points out, so do the living. The only issue for undead is that they are effectively immortal so wearing out is a more permanent issue.

BtS also raises a number of reasons why undeath has its benefits. Many see it as a second chance. Certainly of the forsaken we see in BtS, they don't seem to be consumed with depression, self loathing and despair.

It removes the need for sleep and for many it creates opportunities they never had in life. A scullery maid becomes an apocathery, a shoe cobbler becomes a warlock. Hell, we see one guy accept the gift because through it he can still support his family who would be destitute if he had just died.
Why are there so many threads about morality of magic types today.

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