reduce incentives for low-end LFG content

General Discussion
note: this is not about LFR, only LFG (more specifically, LFG for heroic dungeons).

i just finished a dungeon run where a very geared player was queued as a healer, but specced into dps instead. they spent the entire run running ahead of me (the tank), pulling and aoeing everything, ignoring the rest of the group.

we also had a relatively new player in the group who was constantly taking damage and dying. our other two players were also taking damage, though nothing too fatal.

i asked the person who queued as a healer if they wouldn't mind swapping to heals, since people were dying, only to be blatantly ignored. one of the other DPS spoke up, saying that it's stupid to ask that because a geared DPS makes the run faster. this went on for the rest of the run, and they never did swap to healer (our new player died 3 times in the process).

while i think we can go either way with this argument, considering its the end of the expansion and most players are geared and, to be fair, the run did go quite fast... i think this is indicative of a much larger problem:

providing an incentive for easier content that all or most players find useful creates an environment where all involved players are miserable.

players with better gear don't want to be running heroic LFG. it's not enjoyable, it's easy, it's a waste of their time. they want to get it over with quick. the only reason they queue is for the wakening essence.

new players, or those just trying to enjoy the dungeons, are caught up in the ridiculous pace set by the impatient but geared players. they get lost, they don't get to take their time learning or simply appreciating the scenery. they die frequently because their group is two hundred yards ahead, in the wrong spec, trying to speedrun the content.

as such, i think it would be in everyone's best interest that universally worthwhile incentives are not implemented in easier content.

players are far less likely to be exploiting queues to get the content done if they have no reason to do the content in the first place. on the other hand, new players and those who want to do the content for the sake of it won't have to deal with people queueing in the wrong spec and making the run miserable.

locking players into the spec they queue as would be a bandaid fix to the problem, but it alone wouldn't address the absurd pace that geared players will inevitably push in situations like this. that being said, it's a change i would also love to see implemented.

tl;dr
in the future, please avoid giving universally meaningful incentives as a reward for easier LFG content. this will make everyone involved in that content less miserable.
you're a druid...you could have swapped to heals and kept him alive.
07/16/2018 12:46 AMPosted by Palfrehtalsu
you're a druid...you could have swapped to heals and kept him alive.

yeah, i could have. i was incredibly frazzled over the nerve of that dude that it didn't occur to me until afterwards, though.
07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
note: this is not about LFR, only LFG (more specifically, LFG for heroic dungeons).

i just finished a dungeon run where a very geared player was queued as a healer, but specced into dps instead. they spent the entire run running ahead of me (the tank), pulling and aoeing everything, ignoring the rest of the group.

we also had a relatively new player in the group who was constantly taking damage and dying. our other two players were also taking damage, though nothing too fatal.

i asked the person who queued as a healer if they wouldn't mind swapping to heals, since people were dying, only to be blatantly ignored. one of the other DPS spoke up, saying that it's stupid to ask that because a geared DPS makes the run faster. this went on for the rest of the run, and they never did swap to healer (our new player died 3 times in the process).

while i think we can go either way with this argument, considering its the end of the expansion and most players are geared and, to be fair, the run did go quite fast... i think this is indicative of a much larger problem:

providing an incentive for easier content that all or most players find useful creates an environment where all involved players are miserable.

players with better gear don't want to be running heroic LFG. it's not enjoyable, it's easy, it's a waste of their time. they want to get it over with quick. the only reason they queue is for the wakening essence.

new players, or those just trying to enjoy the dungeons, are caught up in the ridiculous pace set by the impatient but geared players. they get lost, they don't get to take their time learning or simply appreciating the scenery. they die frequently because their group is two hundred yards ahead, in the wrong spec, trying to speedrun the content.

as such, i think it would be in everyone's best interest that universally worthwhile incentives are not implemented in easier content.

players are far less likely to be exploiting queues to get the content done if they have no reason to do the content in the first place. on the other hand, new players and those who want to do the content for the sake of it won't have to deal with people queueing in the wrong spec and making the run miserable.

locking players into the spec they queue as would be a bandaid fix to the problem, but it alone wouldn't address the absurd pace that geared players will inevitably push in situations like this. that being said, it's a change i would also love to see implemented.

tl;dr
in the future, please avoid giving universally meaningful incentives as a reward for easier LFG content. this will make everyone involved in that content less miserable.


No.
07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
locking players into the spec they queue as would be a bandaid fix to the problem, but it alone wouldn't address the absurd pace that geared players will inevitably push in situations like this. that being said, it's a change i would also love to see implemented.
Honestly, this is probably the best thing they could and should do finally, at least for dungeon content.
07/16/2018 12:54 AMPosted by Kegstand
07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
locking players into the spec they queue as would be a bandaid fix to the problem, but it alone wouldn't address the absurd pace that geared players will inevitably push in situations like this. that being said, it's a change i would also love to see implemented.
Honestly, this is probably the best thing they could and should do finally, at least for dungeon content.

what worries me about just locking specs and doing nothing else is two things

one, it wouldn't address the ridiculous pace that some people decide to run the dungeons at. "i don't know where to go because i got left behind" is a pretty common complaint from newer players, from what i can tell.

and two, say your tank gets vote kicked or leaves mid-run. lots of groups would prefer to have one of their DPS swap to tank and keep pulling until they get a dedicated tank instead of sitting around doing nothing. i'd like to preserve that functionality at least to some degree.

for example -- what if it locked you to the spec you queued as, but if a specific role left (not vote-kicked, to prevent abuse), it allows you to switch between your queued role and the role that is no longer in the party?

07/16/2018 12:52 AMPosted by Gordello
No.

thanks for your valuable contribution
what happens if keyroles get votekicked and you can't switch? more important in low levels seeing as you see the absolute worst kind of players there
07/16/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Praisedesun
what happens if keyroles get votekicked and you can't switch? more important in low levels seeing as you see the absolute worst kind of players there

fair point.

how about the restriction on vote kicks only applies to DPS?

e.g. if a DPS is vote kicked, you cannot switch to DPS. if a tank or healer is vote kicked, you may switch to them.

mostly what i'm assuming will happen is people will queue tank/healer for fast queues with their friends, vote kick a random dps, and then swap to DPS to steamroll the dungeon and get the loot.
OP is spot on. Don’t put daily things that geared players want in easy content that they don’t want to do. It’s stupid. Make it come from the first dungeon you do that day. Then they can run a mythic+ and get it.

If I never run another heroic dungeon in my life it will be too soon. They are too easy at the start of the expansion, let alone at the end.
Locking spec won't work in dungeons, too many situations where people might want to change specs (for example, dps and heals swap roles). The correct resolution to that situation is the vote to kick. If that doesn't work, drop group or allow them to truly solo the instance while everyone watches.
07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
trying to speedrun the content.


Yo yo, i don't try and speedrun the content. I speed solo it. You Can pull the stick outta your behind cus it aint stoppin.

Blizzard did this on purpose, to get high geared players into low level groups to make them go faster.

07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
players are far less likely to be exploiting queues to get the content done if they have no reason to do the content in the first place.


Not everyone who speed blitzes the dungeons is exploiting the queue.

07/16/2018 12:28 AMPosted by Sayuri
locking players into the spec they queue as would be a bandaid fix to the problem, but it alone wouldn't address the absurd pace that geared players will inevitably push in situations like this.


What's absurd is you wanting to spend multiple hours wandering aimlessly around in a trivial dungeon when others just want to get it done.
lol you said frazzled
Is there a reason not to create a 5 dps overgeared premade to blitz dungeons?
Isn't this what vote to kick is for?
07/16/2018 01:52 AMPosted by Shippujinlai
What's absurd is you wanting to spend multiple hours wandering aimlessly around in a trivial dungeon when others just want to get it done.
The issue is that people aren't playing the game at that point. Is the new player in that situation enjoying themselves?

Too often people treat the game like it's all about the reward. Probably a big part of why I thought Legion was a trash expansion right up there with WoD. It's about the journey not the destination for some people, like myself.
Blizzard did this on purpose, to get high geared players into low level groups to make them go faster.
If that's the case then that is a horrible idea.

It'll just hurt the actual dungeon experience for the undergeared / new players, IMO, to have a ilvl 930 zerglord soloing the whole dungeon.
'LFG' is manually made groups in the group finder. You did a random heroic dungeon, which is called 'LFD' or Looking for Dungeons.

The proper solution is not to create a brand new system 2 days before the end of this expansion and the beginning of the next with the prepatch. The solution is to vote to kick.
07/16/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Praisedesun
what happens if keyroles get votekicked and you can't switch? more important in low levels seeing as you see the absolute worst kind of players there


wait till the role fills up much better than the alternative
07/16/2018 01:54 AMPosted by Buttkiss
Is there a reason not to create a 5 dps overgeared premade to blitz dungeons?

any restrictions on specs should be lifted in premade groups of 5 specifically to allow this.

the goal isn't to prevent people from doing a run in a way that isn't intended -- it's just to not give people a reason to do content that's significantly below their standards, for the purpose of ensuring that inexperienced players have a chance to run content relevant to them and actually experience it. and also because running heroics as a 950 isn't likely to be fun to anyone.

07/16/2018 01:52 AMPosted by Shippujinlai
What's absurd is you wanting to spend multiple hours wandering aimlessly around in a trivial dungeon when others just want to get it done.

i kind of wandered off in my replies, but the OP isn't about that at all. it's about not putting incentives into low-end content that high-end players actually need.

what's better than a 5 minute daily heroic? not having to snooze your way through a heroic at all.

Yo yo, i don't try and speedrun the content. I speed solo it. You Can pull the stick outta your behind cus it aint stoppin.

i'd like for you to be able to speed solo by yourself, without affecting the run of others.
07/16/2018 01:48 AMPosted by Spazlord
OP is spot on. Don’t put daily things that geared players want in easy content that they don’t want to do. It’s stupid.


But it works because ppl do it and have been doing it for 10 + years and will continue to do it because they lack any sort of self control

Maybe it time for you guys to try the alternative solution and not do it. 10 + YEAR of meh forced should be enough to warrant that don't you think

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