BFA, hardest spec at mythic level of play?

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Ok, so we have all seen the "What spec is easiest", most dps, etc. But recently I have seen some people here trying to say their spec is the most difficult and some of these guys are straight up crazy wrong.

So what spec would you say is most difficult to play at the most optimal level?

Probably going to need Mythic raiders to chime in here as most ppl probably don't actually know how hard it is to play a class at that level of play.
Well two trains of thought here.
1) most difficult because poor class utility/gameplay/etc

2) most difficult because it’s complex but is a solid iteration of the spec.

Idk which would be the hardest. But I can say survival hunter ranks up there for Legion. Not sure how much change happened to them in beta.
Hardest would probably be difficult to judge at that level. Most raid groups have specific comps they play. So for example a Feral Druid May be very hard to play at a Mythic level. But no one would know that.
I've played most specs now and I think theyre all pretty easy but I think demo lock is going to offer the highest potential for optimization, squeezing out as many demons as you can and dropping a demonic tyrant to extend them then plopping out a few more.

its pretty fun to boot.
I know that historically, sub rogue has been one of the most difficult specs to play properly at a high level.

Personally, I find the Legion version of Brewmaster far more complicated than the other tanks and not particularly fun, so it's the only tank I don't have at 970+ atm, but it's looking much better in BFA (or maybe I'm just less bad).

Overall, none of the specs really have that high of a skill ceiling anymore.
If it stays at the moments talents, i think Havoc is also in good spot. Because of the !@#$ movement building momentum is the best talent atm. And this jumping around and don't jump into a void etc makes it hard to play I think. Even in mythik raids with one shot void zone
There's a lot of specs very easy to play. Normal, heroic or mythic it's all the same. Your rotations will be the same. Easy specs are easy specs. Period. You dont have a easy spec that all of the sudden turns out to be extremely difficul in mythic.

I dont have very much experiencie regarding of classes and specs, but from what I've heard and played, the most easier are Beast Mastery, Havoc and Arms.
07/06/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Ascetic
I've played most specs now and I think theyre all pretty easy but I think demo lock is going to offer the highest potential for optimization, squeezing out as many demons as you can and dropping a demonic tyrant to extend them then plopping out a few more.

its pretty fun to boot.
No. Absolutely no.
07/07/2018 01:59 AMPosted by Krenna
Period. You dont have a easy spec that all of the sudden turns out to be extremely difficul in mythic.


I did say optimally. For instance if you play Frost optimally you have to take into account the speed of the spells you cast and weave in faster spells with your Frost Bolt. People may say frost is easy, but weaving in spells correct all of the time optimally is not. It's the easy to play, hard to master thing and there are a lot of elitist out there that say they do everything right all of the time, because they are the top .001% in the a game with 5 million players. Even at .001% that's still 5,000 top notch players and that's more than enough to populate these message boards.

Even at the top .001% those guys have to find some specs less easy to play than the other really easy ones...
As a rule of thumb, achieving mastery over anything is going to be difficult. There are an near-infinite number of possibilities for decision making, positiioning optimizations, timing of cooldowns, ect.

The problem with classes today is that they offer very little positive feedback to the player as they climb higher in skill. There are fewer opportunities for a player to look at their class and say "I have a much better understanding over this part of my rotation than I did before".

Instead, those moments were replaced with "I sure hope I get good RNG".

Once a player reaches a moderate level of competence with their class, there's little left for them to gain a deeper understanding of. Taking the time to optimize the little things does offer a performance boost, but the gain is far less noticeable than simply having good RNG.

It doesn't matter if I utilize every proc perfectly. If procs are the majority of my damage, then the bulk of my performance is determined by how often I get those procs.

This is why people call frost mage easy. Yes, if you take the time to perfect the timing of your abilities, you might gain a ~5% boost in dps, but once you have a decent understanding of the basics, the biggest factor on your performance is whether or not you get good RNG.
In BFA I would probably say Feral, it's not 'hard' but you have such low energy regen that you have incredibly low room for era, and even a small mistake has a big impact on dps.
Skill has been replaced with RNG. Psychologically it's the same thing though. More people can enjoy the reward with RNG since it's not a respecter of persons. It still rubs me the wrong way though. I have the mindset of the more you put into something the more you should get out of it.
Feral (self buffs to track/manage with limited energy along with combo point management):
Tigers fury (15% - snap shotting)
Savage roar (20%)
Blood talons (20%)

Rip
Rake
Lunar Inspiration

Energy pooling for max FB damage
Combo points

Combined with jagged wounds which is likely to be optimal for a while, all your bleeds end 20% faster.

What you end up with is a massive juggling act that it you stuff up your dps will be rock bottom. If you do well, 99.99% of the time, you'll be destroying the single target meters (trash aoe however, regardless of how well you play).

Played it most of legion and didn't mind it on the beta. But I'm not sure I'll stick with it, compared to a class like fury, which does great aoe and single target with the same talent build, and is just fun as hell to play, feral only has it's QOL and lovely form going for it for me now :(
07/07/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Cèowulf
Played it most of legion and didn't mind it on the beta. But I'm not sure I'll stick with it, compared to a class like fury, which does great aoe and single target with the same talent build, and is just fun as hell to play, feral only has it's QOL and lovely form going for it for me now :(


The only problem I see right now is everyone is playing Fury. I think we have 5 active warriors in my guild now, so I'm looking elsewhere. Even though I think fury is in possibly the best place it ever has been seeing everyone playing it makes it hard to run Raids in a small guild. This last week in just messing around we had 8 melee and 2 ranged I think, a lock and mage big surprise eh?

So far you know what I have not seen on the list, BM, LoL. That is the spec I keep seeing some people trying their hardest to make it seem as if it's top shelf in the skill department. Just nice to know i'm not crazy when I think it's way off base.
07/07/2018 11:15 PMPosted by Rikar
it makes it hard to run Raids in a small guild. This last week in just messing around we had 8 melee and 2 ranged I think, a lock and mage big surprise eh?
I think most guilds, even groups, are in this situation. Melee is just growing and growing in popularity, despite this game needing more ranged to make the encounter design work well.

I think it has a lot to do with class design in general, and really antiquated design philosophies--and the endless removal of movement functionality for ranged. I think a lot of it has to do with pvp balance, and the limitations of game engine

It's radical, I know, but I personally think this game should have "pvp-exclusive specs". Leave open-world unbalanced, but any BG/Arena forces you into a highly specific 13-class balance. Trying to balance 36+ specs for pvp *and* pve is hurting both gametypes. They started that process with "honor talents", now they need finally commit and lock the pve-tree when you're in instanced-pve combat, so that the PVE tree can be PVE balanced.

I've done many mythic+ groups with friends where I'm the only ranged, (even the healer is considered melee) and it's an awful experience. And having to deny most raid recruits because they only have melee toons hurts.
07/07/2018 08:21 AMPosted by Vongar
Even at .001% that's still 5,000 top notch players and that's more than enough to populate these message boards.
Just wanting to point out that .001% of 5m is 50 people, not 5000. (5000 would be .1%)
I don't think there's definite answer to the question, simply because there are different aspects about what can be considered 'hard' one could say the hardest is the spec with the most complex rotation, other person could say the hardest is the one that needs to adjust their rotation a lot based on talent choices, on some fights hardest part may be to stay alive through mechanics or to get to the other side of the bridge.. someone could find melee to be harder, someone could find ranged to be harder, same for roles DPSing, Tanking and healing..

Also it can change in a fight to fight basics.. gonna use Holy Priest as an example here, one could say it's a very simple and straightforward and that's correct so you could say it's easy to play it.. however.. they have low mobility, no defesives so one miss-step and they die, also can't do much on the move and they even need to find multiple windows to stand still and channel for 8 seconds (Hymn, Symbol, Leytorrent Potion equivalent) which in some fights is pretty difficult to do.. So it's a simple kit but executing the fight might not be as simple...
07/06/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Ascetic
I've played most specs now and I think theyre all pretty easy but I think demo lock is going to offer the highest potential for optimization, squeezing out as many demons as you can and dropping a demonic tyrant to extend them then plopping out a few more.

its pretty fun to boot.


Just an FYI...sounds like your warlock is in labor.
As a rule of thumb, achieving mastery over anything is going to be difficult. There are an near-infinite number of possibilities for decision making, positiioning optimizations, timing of cooldowns, ect.

The problem with classes today is that they offer very little positive feedback to the player as they climb higher in skill. There are fewer opportunities for a player to look at their class and say "I have a much better understanding over this part of my rotation than I did before".

Instead, those moments were replaced with "I sure hope I get good RNG". RNG.


This is a really clear and excellent post. To add some more numbers to the understanding:

The resource cost for your brain to play frost optimally vs good enough is about 230 calories AN HOUR more(and not just calories but greatly increased potassium and magnesium needs and over all signifcant increases in nutrients across the board(and only at most 40% of what you eat will get diverted to the brain + digestion and utilization time which is anywhere from 15 min-4 hours in just a typical human), this is a huge increase in drain on your body and can lead to making you very fat irl (high potasium foods tend to have extreme amounts of carbohydrates), you can game that system a but with amphetamines or ketones/ketogenic diet but each person has a unique individual limit on how fast they can generate ATP and depolarize cells (Mylien Sheathing(practice) can make this more stable and effecient but...) in addition to whatever processing complications for needing to anticipate distances to compensate for whatever your maximal reaction speeds are (reflexes), and then you have to compensate that to not over anticipate and screw up your rng (this one is the most expensive brain resource wise as it costs focus and attentional resources which are extremely finite except in people with things like ADHD, you cant just ‘gain more’ or ‘restore’ them quickly as mitochondrial collapse and toxicfication are the consequences to pushing them).

Now, the difference in dps in identical gear and spec between a person who flawlessly executes frost, including anticipating when each rng proc will occur, gaming them, and flawlessly never munching or having a wasted gcd while maneuvering about the battle field is only a measly 10% at maximum (but generally 0.5-5%) which assumes a kind of gear set up reliant on rng procs mastery and burst windows, this CAN be a 40% increase on burst cleave fights however (and relevant when soloing content only). Generally on average vs someone playing frost very relaxed/casually you will still pump out 90% of the specs maximal optimal damage.

While that kind of mastery feels very rewarding you can get the same optimal performance accidentally just playing the spec in a relaxed way ‘occasionally’ (if you play a thousand fights a week then about 10-12 of the time on AVERAGE meaning some people will get all 1000 fights that occurs and next week very few, and another might go 10,000,000 fights without a proc), eventually as long as its the only spec you play these things smooth out and you start sensing when and when not to play frost and you remain relaxed, and over all your runs you will stil be doing a good 90-95% of your specs maximal damage vs an equally geared and speced mythic professionally who is spending more than 4x the damaging resources and crippling their brain long term (most likely, unless they have a very healthy lifestyle, which is rare amongst.. competitive gamers). That is HUGE operational cost (+ cost of food/fuel, especially over time to reinforce mylien sheathing(EFFECTIVE practice), work out/gym costs, etc). Just to be 0.5-5% better than a first time frost player in most circumstances in equal gear.

Meanwhile upgrading your average item level will net you far greater % damage increases. At no cost to your brain more than an average lazy day.

granted some specs of classes in the game are punishing if you DON’T operate the later way (disc, blood dk, etc) if someone is naturally inclined to be anticipatory instead of reactionary there is no cost difference (such people would be playing frost casually at 93-97% optimally to clear why the % range is such).

If you really want to play a spec optimally without burdensome costs that outweigh the befits than you mjst find a spec and class that NATURALLY fits your style intuitively (style is based on how your particular brain uniquely processes and filters information and other demands related to nutrition, lifestyle choices, environment, etc and how that all combines, a tricky task in and of itself to figire out for yourself).

there might be a spec out there you play 100% optimally without effort (and it will feel very easy and unchallenging to you, fun is relative and based on your attitude, which is something you choose to have and shape it by choice).
07/07/2018 01:53 AMPosted by Serodaris
If it stays at the moments talents, i think Havoc is also in good spot. Because of the !@#$ movement building momentum is the best talent atm. And this jumping around and don't jump into a void etc makes it hard to play I think. Even in mythik raids with one shot void zone


I raid Demo, Parse pretty decent. Momo might be SLIGHTLY more DPS. But the mobility and survivability loss is never worth it. Being able to do mechanics will always be more important then a sub 1% DPS gain.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum