Teldrassil was a legitimate military target

Story Forum
Prev 1 2 3 5 Next
07/15/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Reignac
07/15/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Baljin
I guess the Horde struck first if you ignore Silithus and Stormheim and pretend those don’t exist.

Well that's what Blizzard's doing so


It's funny 'cause it's true!

/slaps knee
/sobs
07/15/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Resìleaf
<span class="truncated">...</span>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5xSShK1QqA

Don't complain when your own arguments get thrown back to your face. It just makes you look silly.
you look silly when the entire point of the thread flies over your head at mach 7.
You're 100% right.

I wish Blizzard knew how to tell a war story....Both sides are villians in a racially, ideologically driven war no matter who starts the damn thing. Once war has begun against two sides of relatively equal power, any pretense of moral superiority is a foolish concept designed only to justify the conflict to the under classes dying for the upper classes.

Thus, the only moral response to war is to immediately end it. One way or another.
Just because it makes sense to attack something doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.

The Soviet Union could have launched a nuke at Washington DC during the Cold War, but they didn't for the same reason the US didn't launch a nuke at Moscow: because there are no winners in full scale nuclear war, only losers.

Sylvanas was too blinded by the potential of Azerite to consider the dire repercussions of outright attacking an Alliance capital city and ended up pulling the Horde into a full scale war they had no real reason to be engaging in.

I don't really care for the justification arguments, bottom line is she took a cold war situation and turned it into a worldwide open conflict because of her greed, ego, and rampant paranoia. She acted like Sylvanas instead of acting like a Warchief.
07/15/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Cursewords
07/15/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Reignac
...
Well that's what Blizzard's doing so


It's funny 'cause it's true!

/slaps knee
/sobs
They already turned Silithus into a case of Horde aggression in Before the Storm.
I guess the Horde struck first if you ignore Silithus and Stormheim and pretend those don’t exist.


That also assume we ignore Ashran and the even our missions table with us duking it out in Draenor seas. Hell, I had Horde spies in my garrison.

And no we are not ignoring Ashran considering the NPC actually reference the place.

As for Stormheim, depending on whether Azsuna comes first or not the Alliance actually had some knowledge that Sylvanas was up to no good. Sylvanas doesnt even use it as a justification for war becuase I'm sure if the rest of the Horde hear what she did(making deals with Helya and trying to enslave a Val'kyr) they would probably all balk at it!
07/15/2018 02:05 PMPosted by Zerde
Hell, I had Horde spies in my garrison.

And Alliance spies in mine.

But I'm sure they were retaliatory spies.
07/15/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Arlifrex
So can Jaina flood Orgrimmar again?


Only if Malfurion adds tons of quick-drying cement to that flood.
07/15/2018 02:57 PMPosted by Rokugan
And Alliance spies in mine.

But I'm sure they were retaliatory spies.


My point we have been fighting each other longer than Silithus and Stormhiem, using that as the "start" of the war seems foolish. What can be said however is Sylvanas has escalated it to the point of all but no return. At this point we either destroy the other faction, or get destroyed in turn.
07/15/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Reallyhappy
07/15/2018 09:35 AMPosted by Piouspelicañ
So was Theramore
So was the Undercity (both times)
So was Quel'thalas

The list goes on. What's the point of this thread?

It's Treng trying to make a thread about how people bring up taurajo was a legitimate target in the narrative, failing to realize the only reason people bring it up is either ironicly, as a joke, or to bemoan it.
wasn't it baine who declared it a legitimate target much to the annoyance of tauren players? since he forbade his people from retaliating?
07/15/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Zerde
07/15/2018 02:57 PMPosted by Rokugan
And Alliance spies in mine.

But I'm sure they were retaliatory spies.


My point we have been fighting each other longer than Silithus and Stormhiem, using that as the "start" of the war seems foolish. What can be said however is Sylvanas has escalated it to the point of all but no return. At this point we either destroy the other faction, or get destroyed in turn.


It gets brought up repeatedly because it was the reestablishment of hostilities nearest the most recent brokered truce. It's not an event chosen arbitrarily from the string of events.
07/15/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Zanarchy
It gets brought up repeatedly because it was the reestablishment of hostilities nearest the most recent brokered truce. It's not an event chosen arbitrarily from the string of events.


and yet even Sylvanas does not consider it the start of the war proper so using it as the start ignore establish lore. For all we know the "truce" the Alliance/Horde had has wiggle room for attacking Sylvanas if the Alliance deemed her a threat to them, or something like that.
Genn's ambush of the Warchief happens after the High King and the previous Warchief fought side by side and died. It is the first act of aggression following the brokered cooperation on the Broken Shore.

Just because Blizzard's writers ignore that does not make it a figment of our imagination.
07/15/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Zanarchy
07/15/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Casina
and is now in the process of enslaving the Val'kyr bring Odyn into war against us at the same time we have to fight off the Legion.


Genn knew nothing about this when he attacked the Forsaken fleet. The Horde and Alliance were still under truce when he and Rogers ordered the attack against Sylvanas. NATO and the Warsaw Pact in the early 80's unite under banner of truce to fight some aliens. On the way to assault the alien stronghold in Greenland, a Polish fleet attacks French ships (or a Belgian ship launches an attack against Ukrainians).

Sylvanas and the Horde were the aggressors against Gilneas and Gilneas was within their rights to retaliate. Neither the Horde nor Gilneas had any sort of truce agreed upon by their respective leaderships. Gilneas joined the Alliance. The Alliance negotiated a truce with the Horde for the purposes of fighting the Burning Legion. Gilneas, now a part of the Alliance, is beholden to that truce.

Genn and Rogers decide to attack Sylvanas because she's alone with her fleet and they'd have plausible deniability. This makes Genn and Rogers (and the Alliance by association) aggressors against the Forsaken (and the Horde by association). We'll gloss over it because keeping coherent threads is just not something CDev loves to do, but by any understanding Genn committed an act of war during a negotiated peace.


Azsuna canonically came first giving intelligence that Sylvanas was up to no good, and Genn has circumstantial evidence she is doing something unjustifiably evil and that is her record.

With no provocation at all she invaded Gilneas, and tried to exterminate every Gilnean with some of them being slated to get worked to death or get used as human guinea pigs. Genn as a result knows the kind of operations Sylvanas does in other peoples lands.

It was just safer to stop major operations by such a person in an area inhabited by a manchild god who's help and artifact everyone desperately needed who would have been an enemy attacking you at the same time as the Legion if she wasn't stopped.

That was his perspective and what was discovered by both sides made it turn out to be 100% right.

From a Forsaken perspective they want their immortality because they can't be sure anything but the shadowlands awaits them now that their very souls are cursed, and like any other human they want to be able to have children (which in a sick way they get from necromancers) and Sylvanas is providing both at the risk of her own safety I understand they have a perspective but from a neutral perspective they are wrong and being extremely evil, and from what they are doing as a practical matter without them being stopped Odyn is an enemy he doesn't seem like the kind of person who will distinguish between factions.
07/15/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Cursewords
Genn's ambush of the Warchief happens after the High King and the previous Warchief fought side by side and died. It is the first act of aggression following the brokered cooperation on the Broken Shore.

Just because Blizzard's writers ignore that does not make it a figment of our imagination.


And people like to ignore the subtle implications of why the Alliance attacked Sylvanas and why even she probably couldn't use it as justification for war.

Sylvanas: The Alliance attacked me while I was trying to enslave a Val'kyr and making deals with Helya. You know, two things that would actively weaken us in our war against the Legion.
Rest of the Horde: /facepalm
07/15/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Zerde
Sylvanas: The Alliance attacked me while I was trying to enslave a Val'kyr and making deals with Helya. You know, two things that would actively weaken us in our war against the Legion.
Why would she have to admit that? It's 1000% in Sylvanas's character to lie bold-faced.
Azsuna canonically came first giving intelligence that Sylvanas was up to no good...

It was just safer to stop major operations by such a person in an area inhabited by a manchild god who's help and artifact everyone desperately needed...


Is it?

I have seen some debate but I have not seen it stated which zones came first canonically - I ask because I don't know. Did it say in chronicles?

That aside, Genn had no idea about Man-Baby Odyn until long after both Factions are wrecked. More to the point, we do not know everything about Sylvanas and Helya. I doubt we will.

From what I gathered, Sylvanas's goal was a future for the Forsaken. But she also was planning on eventually defeating Helya and Odyn, then claiming the Aegis. She sends the Horde champion to work with Odyn as an alternate path to the Aegis because her plan is a long shot.

You can argue Sylvanas was right or wrong - but Genn did not attack her in Stormhiem to save Odyn or anyone else.

07/15/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Casina
I understand they have a perspective but from a neutral perspective they are wrong and being extremely evil


wut
What, no mention of there being no Night Elf civilians because all Night Elf children can take on adult Goblins?

Weeeeak.
07/15/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Casina
Azsuna canonically came first giving intelligence that Sylvanas was up to no good, and Genn has circumstantial evidence she is doing something unjustifiably evil and that is her record.


Which doesn't at all change the fact that he ordered an attack on her and her fleet before knowing what 'up to no good' even meant. I've done the questlines enough on both Horde and Alliance characters, the paper trail is exceedingly clear. Unless Azsuna indicated incontrovertibly (and it did not) that 'up to no good' meant pledging the Forsaken to Sargeras, he was still the aggressor in the scenario.

07/15/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Casina
With no provocation at all she invaded Gilneas, and tried to exterminate every Gilnean with some of them being slated to get worked to death or get used as human guinea pigs. Genn as a result knows the kind of operations Sylvanas does in other peoples lands.


Supposition, and emotionally charged supposition at that. Should all members of the Alliance assume that Genn's plan is always to build a giant wall and go completely radio silent the moment he feels that dealing with them is no longer necessary?

And if we're playing the grudge game, what of the legitimate grudge that Sylvanas' people had towards Gilneas? If we're not going logically by the official, brokered start-stop conflict points, why not consider that as well? Maybe if Genn had answered the pleas of fleeing Lordaeronians, some of them would have been spared a fate that Genn himself considers worse than final death. Who cares about his reasons for not doing so? In your paradigm, the restless dead of Lordaeron are totally justified in destroying Gilneas. After all, they can flawlessly extrapolate all outcomes regardless of changes in status or situation based on Genn's actions towards them.

07/15/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Casina

It was just safer to stop major operations by such a person in an area inhabited by a manchild god who's help and artifact everyone desperately needed who would have been an enemy attacking you at the same time as the Legion if she wasn't stopped.


This has been discussed to death, but even if he had this concrete evidence before striking her fleet (which he did not) Odyn was much more of a hindrance than a help in obtaining the Aegis. It's basically a minor miracle that Skovald isn't walking around with it right now. We chose to coddle a malfunctioning robot but that wasn't the only option available.

07/15/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Casina

That was his perspective and what was discovered by both sides made it turn out to be 100% right.


Irrelevant to determining the aggressor, especially when Eyir's enslavement (something I personally consider distasteful) had no negative effect on the Alliance short of Genn's pwecious-wecious feelsie-weelsies.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum