Blizzard, You Rushed Battle for Azeroth

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07/24/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Seldorai
just to garner more support and exposure for his Side business.
Funny you are the only person that has mentioned it. I had no idea what he did on the side till you brought it up repeatedly. The only one directing traffic to his patreon is you
07/23/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Neall
Blizzard:

You rushed Battle for Azeroth. You’ve been rushing it since you announced it at BlizzCon in November.

The breadth and depth of the systems changes in this pre-patch were ambitious. As I consider the changes in the pre-patch, it seems this was the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game at one time. I understand that Cataclysm’s Launch re-worked the old world and re-worked all the quest lines in the old kingdoms. But this pre-patch was larger, I believe.

Systems changed in the pre-patch:
Class and Spec Changes for all Classes and Specs
Stat Squish for all Players, NPC’s, Items and Spells in the game
Loot changes for current and legacy encounters
Artifact Weapon removal
Rework of all quest lines requiring a number of Artifact Traits
Professions
Removal of First Aid as a Profession but not quests that require First Aid items
Removal of PvP Servers / Addition of War Mode
Conversion of Prestige System to the Honor System
Making Honor Gains Account Wide
New Guild Interface
Introduction of Communities in game
Introduction of New Achievements and Rewards
Removal of Full Screen (For . . . Reasons)
New User Interface
Pet Charm Currency Changes
I’m sure I missed some of the changes

Most of these changes had serious issues at pre-patch. Many of these changes still have issues, a week later.

Legion’s content rollout was amazing – one of your biggest successes. To have content rolling out on a consistent basis was probably a big boost to your confidence regarding how quickly, efficiently and effectively you can roll out new content. I think you have that down pat and look forward to the content roll out of Battle for Azeroth. Unfortunately, pre-patch is not a content update, it’s a systems update.

I imagine there should be a NASA like “Go / No Go” meeting before every major step in the launch process. And every group touching the launch should give a “Go” or “No Go” to move forward with the current launch time line. If you are having those types of meetings, then they failed you this time around. I feel like Ragnaros should have been somewhere saying, “Too Soon!” All the random Pandaren you interact with should be saying, “Slow Down!”

I thought that the Battle for Azeroth announcement at BlizzCon was very light compared to the Legion announcement at GamesCon and especially the presentation at the subsequent Blizzcon. I thought at the time, the earliest launch could happen were the Fall, if Beta started right after Blizzcon. Alpha did not start until January and Beta did not start until April. I believe all of your other Betas started at least 6 months before launch. Legion was announced at GamesCon, presented at Blizzcon, had Alpha released right after Blizzcon, Beta by the first of the year and released in September. Battle for Azeroth’s launch timeline was super compressed. And yeah, you have more people working on the game than ever before but this is also the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game.

With the number of systems changed, some bugs were to be expected, but the large number of prominent bugs in the major systems should have kept this pre-patch from being delivered. It seems many of the major systems were not even fully tested or evaluated. Specifically, the tuning of Legion Dungeons and Raids, the tuning of Mount Dropping Legacy Raids, the Profession Levelling changes, and the new Guild Interface stand out as major failings. There are probably others. I’m sure you’re working on fixing them and I’m sure you’ll eventually get them all fixed. This too, shall pass. And you’ll get back to developing the next content to be rolled out and the next expansions. We may not see this amount of systems changes to the game ever again. We will likely see a stat squish in the expansion after the next expansion (2022) along with other systems changes and class and spec redesigns. Please learn from this and use these lessons for all subsequent pre-patches.

Give yourself enough time. Plan for a long tail to the expansion. Embrace a long tail to the expansion. Give players something new to do in the tail of the expansion. Create crossover content in other games with in game WoW rewards (Primal Flamesaber, Graves, etc.). Introduce a new dungeon or raid (Ruby Sanctum). (Could the Silithis quest line have been a dungeon with replayability and sweet loot rather than a quest line?) Introduce a new brawl. (Could Seething Shore have a new Brawl associated with it?) Introduce a “Loremaster Buff” that gives you four times (or ten times) the experience in specific regions of the world (Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor, Outlands or Northrend, Cataclysm or Pandaria, Draenor or Broken Shore – not the whole world so people can choose to take advantage of or to not take advantage of the buff). These are just a few ideas. Don’t rush the pre-patch, again. Don’t rush the launch again. Don't make these mistakes again.

I’m counting on you and believe in you.

Neall on Medivh


A note to a certain new MVP. This above is how an MVP should post.
Ruby Sanctum was awful though.
2 hours ago
2

07/24/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Wenwei
07/24/2018 05:58 AMPosted by Seldorai
Short answer: No

Medium Answer: You don't know what is Fun. You think this is fun, but it is not :D

Long Answer: All the changes implement are meant to increase a player's play time.

Class changes will never be perfect - we want to adopt a more flavor of the month Spec - so to keep our Esports fresh - so yes - we are not going to balance Class just so you can have fun. Play the flavor of the month spec if Fun is what you are looking for. We know what Fun is - you don't.

Also Flavor of the month spec = player switching main and gearing for that spec = more = more things to do = more play time clocked

Wait for 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 Next expansion etc.

Complicating a Tank's gameplay increase the time everyone else spend in the instance = longer play time = subscribed longer since content takes longer to complete

Nerfing Leveling experience = longer play time = stay subscribed longer - or you can always skip this whole process by purchasing a boost - but remember - if u boost u get no heritage armor - we don't want to implement an instant pay to win.

And fix what? what do u know about fun pfffttt....

Honestly i really rather they say that, nope we don't want you to have fun, we want you play the way we want you to have fun...

That's why they use the short answer: No

And they try to come out with reasons why is it so....

Its just PR and its just business.

And as long as you do subscribed - then you would just as well validate the changes they implement.

I mean everyone knows -


Nah we will keep complaining until they change, even if they refuse.

As long as there's a chance for the change we will still complain.
I would argue MoP had the most: LFR, the pet battle system, secondary roll tokens, and talent system.

I'm pretty confident that beats out BFA.
A green said it... I can't believe a green literally said it. You've earned a lot of respect from me with this post and I know that means nothing but it means a lot to me.

Thank you for standing out from the crowd and saying some things that need to be said. Thank you.
07/23/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Ramshad
Believing that most of the developers have a great deal of say in when/how an expansion is launched is naive. The major shareholders, board members, and business leaders are the ones who make these types of calls in any publicly-traded company (unless, of course, the developers are also these same people!).

For reasons we do not know (and cannot know without insider knowledge), they estimated that the financial gain of releasing BFA at this time was higher than delaying it. They likely also estimated that any potential loss of subscribers due to early bugs would be either: A, temporary; B, not enough to cancel out the positive cash flow of releasing the expansion now.

So, while you can say, "Oh Blizzard, please take your time and release games later when they're perfect" all day long, that completely ignores the real and infinitely more pressing financial concerns of the company at large. The only way the company will change its policy is if, and only if, the drawbacks to releasing games "early" (in whoever's opinion that is) are more financially deleterious than any positives from releasing "early."

EDIT: By the way, I am an investment analyst and I have "retired" early due to my own investments, primarily in publicly-traded companies (and some land). Suffice to say, I understand how corporate governance functions, and if for some reason someone doubts the above---well, that person is wrong and clueless. Also, just for disclosure, I do own shares of Activision-Blizzard.


This is the absolute truth.
07/24/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Phydeaux
07/23/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Neall
Blizzard:

You rushed Battle for Azeroth. You’ve been rushing it since you announced it at BlizzCon in November.

The breadth and depth of the systems changes in this pre-patch were ambitious. As I consider the changes in the pre-patch, it seems this was the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game at one time. I understand that Cataclysm’s Launch re-worked the old world and re-worked all the quest lines in the old kingdoms. But this pre-patch was larger, I believe.

Systems changed in the pre-patch:
Class and Spec Changes for all Classes and Specs
Stat Squish for all Players, NPC’s, Items and Spells in the game
Loot changes for current and legacy encounters
Artifact Weapon removal
Rework of all quest lines requiring a number of Artifact Traits
Professions
Removal of First Aid as a Profession but not quests that require First Aid items
Removal of PvP Servers / Addition of War Mode
Conversion of Prestige System to the Honor System
Making Honor Gains Account Wide
New Guild Interface
Introduction of Communities in game
Introduction of New Achievements and Rewards
Removal of Full Screen (For . . . Reasons)
New User Interface
Pet Charm Currency Changes
I’m sure I missed some of the changes

Most of these changes had serious issues at pre-patch. Many of these changes still have issues, a week later.

Legion’s content rollout was amazing – one of your biggest successes. To have content rolling out on a consistent basis was probably a big boost to your confidence regarding how quickly, efficiently and effectively you can roll out new content. I think you have that down pat and look forward to the content roll out of Battle for Azeroth. Unfortunately, pre-patch is not a content update, it’s a systems update.

I imagine there should be a NASA like “Go / No Go” meeting before every major step in the launch process. And every group touching the launch should give a “Go” or “No Go” to move forward with the current launch time line. If you are having those types of meetings, then they failed you this time around. I feel like Ragnaros should have been somewhere saying, “Too Soon!” All the random Pandaren you interact with should be saying, “Slow Down!”

I thought that the Battle for Azeroth announcement at BlizzCon was very light compared to the Legion announcement at GamesCon and especially the presentation at the subsequent Blizzcon. I thought at the time, the earliest launch could happen were the Fall, if Beta started right after Blizzcon. Alpha did not start until January and Beta did not start until April. I believe all of your other Betas started at least 6 months before launch. Legion was announced at GamesCon, presented at Blizzcon, had Alpha released right after Blizzcon, Beta by the first of the year and released in September. Battle for Azeroth’s launch timeline was super compressed. And yeah, you have more people working on the game than ever before but this is also the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game.

With the number of systems changed, some bugs were to be expected, but the large number of prominent bugs in the major systems should have kept this pre-patch from being delivered. It seems many of the major systems were not even fully tested or evaluated. Specifically, the tuning of Legion Dungeons and Raids, the tuning of Mount Dropping Legacy Raids, the Profession Levelling changes, and the new Guild Interface stand out as major failings. There are probably others. I’m sure you’re working on fixing them and I’m sure you’ll eventually get them all fixed. This too, shall pass. And you’ll get back to developing the next content to be rolled out and the next expansions. We may not see this amount of systems changes to the game ever again. We will likely see a stat squish in the expansion after the next expansion (2022) along with other systems changes and class and spec redesigns. Please learn from this and use these lessons for all subsequent pre-patches.

Give yourself enough time. Plan for a long tail to the expansion. Embrace a long tail to the expansion. Give players something new to do in the tail of the expansion. Create crossover content in other games with in game WoW rewards (Primal Flamesaber, Graves, etc.). Introduce a new dungeon or raid (Ruby Sanctum). (Could the Silithis quest line have been a dungeon with replayability and sweet loot rather than a quest line?) Introduce a new brawl. (Could Seething Shore have a new Brawl associated with it?) Introduce a “Loremaster Buff” that gives you four times (or ten times) the experience in specific regions of the world (Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor, Outlands or Northrend, Cataclysm or Pandaria, Draenor or Broken Shore – not the whole world so people can choose to take advantage of or to not take advantage of the buff). These are just a few ideas. Don’t rush the pre-patch, again. Don’t rush the launch again. Don't make these mistakes again.

I’m counting on you and believe in you.

Neall on Medivh


A note to a certain new MVP. This above is how an MVP should post.


I second this. Take note, certain new MVP.
Notice how people who disagree with him only reply with one sentence instead of explaining themselves. I'm going to agree with the person who can actually write out reasons why something is good or bad.
Thank you Neall for speaking out what most of us felt!!
07/24/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Deadbeatdon
07/23/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Ramshad
Believing that most of the developers have a great deal of say in when/how an expansion is launched is naive. The major shareholders, board members, and business leaders are the ones who make these types of calls in any publicly-traded company (unless, of course, the developers are also these same people!).

For reasons we do not know (and cannot know without insider knowledge), they estimated that the financial gain of releasing BFA at this time was higher than delaying it. They likely also estimated that any potential loss of subscribers due to early bugs would be either: A, temporary; B, not enough to cancel out the positive cash flow of releasing the expansion now.

So, while you can say, "Oh Blizzard, please take your time and release games later when they're perfect" all day long, that completely ignores the real and infinitely more pressing financial concerns of the company at large. The only way the company will change its policy is if, and only if, the drawbacks to releasing games "early" (in whoever's opinion that is) are more financially deleterious than any positives from releasing "early."

EDIT: By the way, I am an investment analyst and I have "retired" early due to my own investments, primarily in publicly-traded companies (and some land). Suffice to say, I understand how corporate governance functions, and if for some reason someone doubts the above---well, that person is wrong and clueless. Also, just for disclosure, I do own shares of Activision-Blizzard.


This is the absolute truth.


It's largely the truth, but not absolute. He made another good post later that really hit the nail on the head.

It's the timing and scheduling of items that are mandated by the board and shareholders, it's not what they are doing.

The 'What' is what we have problems with. I have no problems with an hurried expansion if it's done right. But you have to manage the scope to ensure that it's done right.

We've had a post on the front page for nearly 6 months talking about how horrible the new leveling is, and their solution is to double down on it?

In short...just because you have a deadline given to you by others, doesn't mean you get to mail it in and make it crappy.
07/24/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Tresska
07/24/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Seldorai
just to garner more support and exposure for his Side business.
Funny you are the only person that has mentioned it. I had no idea what he did on the side till you brought it up repeatedly. The only one directing traffic to his patreon is you


Yeah but OP is not appreciative to someone who is giving him free advertising though.

And even threaten to report me.

And look at the amount of support lol....

Well it pays to be a dishonest businessman.
07/24/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Seldorai
07/24/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Tresska
... Funny you are the only person that has mentioned it. I had no idea what he did on the side till you brought it up repeatedly. The only one directing traffic to his patreon is you


Yeah but OP is not appreciative to someone who is giving him free advertising though.

And even threaten to report me.

And look at the amount of support lol....

Well it pays to be a dishonest businessman.

How else to get a lot more attention than to pander to the wants of general discussion posters lul.
07/24/2018 09:23 AMPosted by Moäb
Ruby Sanctum was awful though.


It was better than what we have now. This pre-patch is horrible.
07/24/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Seldorai
07/24/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Tresska
... Funny you are the only person that has mentioned it. I had no idea what he did on the side till you brought it up repeatedly. The only one directing traffic to his patreon is you


Yeah but OP is not appreciative to someone who is giving him free advertising though.

And even threaten to report me.

And look at the amount of support lol....

Well it pays to be a dishonest businessman.
You literally called people wimps, that in itself is name calling. No matter how you want to put it. It seems you act and have been acting like a self entitled child. Its also the reason why I'll be putting you on ignore.
07/24/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Kaidrya
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Yeah but OP is not appreciative to someone who is giving him free advertising though.

And even threaten to report me.

And look at the amount of support lol....

Well it pays to be a dishonest businessman.
You literally called people wimps, that in itself is name calling. No matter how you want to put it. It seems you act and have been acting like a self entitled child. Its also the reason why I'll be putting you on ignore.


I meant to say whims - lol my bad spelling caught me - so sorry - it didn't auto correct.

Hmm if you enjoy having a hypocrite teaching you how to play WoW - sure - fine by me. Nothing wrong really.

Just the irony is amusing.

Also like to know what or how am I entitled?

It took me awhile to realize that I have to pay to support in order to get into his runs.

And seeing him label it as "Free Community run" and helping the "community" achieve more --

All sounds misleading to me.

I mean i know several Twitch Streamers who explicitly said they like to reward their supporters or said in advance that Subscribers get priority on Viewer Raids, M15, chosen etc. you don't see me barraging them.

I just like honesty. Be honest and let ppl know - that is all. We all understand that it is not easy to run several raid events and the host would like to have some pocket change to help cover the expenses and time redoing the same crap over and over again.

But what is so difficult to just put that "I will priortize my Patreons first" instead of promoting that "I am doing it for the community" and have a couple dozen of Plebs who never seem to be able to get in any runs until the Patreons are done utilizing the service? Like.... is it really that enjoyable to waste Plebs time?

Food for thought?
07/23/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Neall
Blizzard:

You rushed Battle for Azeroth. You’ve been rushing it since you announced it at BlizzCon in November.

The breadth and depth of the systems changes in this pre-patch were ambitious. As I consider the changes in the pre-patch, it seems this was the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game at one time. I understand that Cataclysm’s Launch re-worked the old world and re-worked all the quest lines in the old kingdoms. But this pre-patch was larger, I believe.

Systems changed in the pre-patch:
Class and Spec Changes for all Classes and Specs
Stat Squish for all Players, NPC’s, Items and Spells in the game
Loot changes for current and legacy encounters
Artifact Weapon removal
Rework of all quest lines requiring a number of Artifact Traits
Professions
Removal of First Aid as a Profession but not quests that require First Aid items
Removal of PvP Servers / Addition of War Mode
Conversion of Prestige System to the Honor System
Making Honor Gains Account Wide
New Guild Interface
Introduction of Communities in game
Introduction of New Achievements and Rewards
Removal of Full Screen (For . . . Reasons)
New User Interface
Pet Charm Currency Changes
I’m sure I missed some of the changes

Most of these changes had serious issues at pre-patch. Many of these changes still have issues, a week later.

Legion’s content rollout was amazing – one of your biggest successes. To have content rolling out on a consistent basis was probably a big boost to your confidence regarding how quickly, efficiently and effectively you can roll out new content. I think you have that down pat and look forward to the content roll out of Battle for Azeroth. Unfortunately, pre-patch is not a content update, it’s a systems update.

I imagine there should be a NASA like “Go / No Go” meeting before every major step in the launch process. And every group touching the launch should give a “Go” or “No Go” to move forward with the current launch time line. If you are having those types of meetings, then they failed you this time around. I feel like Ragnaros should have been somewhere saying, “Too Soon!” All the random Pandaren you interact with should be saying, “Slow Down!”

I thought that the Battle for Azeroth announcement at BlizzCon was very light compared to the Legion announcement at GamesCon and especially the presentation at the subsequent Blizzcon. I thought at the time, the earliest launch could happen were the Fall, if Beta started right after Blizzcon. Alpha did not start until January and Beta did not start until April. I believe all of your other Betas started at least 6 months before launch. Legion was announced at GamesCon, presented at Blizzcon, had Alpha released right after Blizzcon, Beta by the first of the year and released in September. Battle for Azeroth’s launch timeline was super compressed. And yeah, you have more people working on the game than ever before but this is also the largest set of systems changes ever made to the game.

With the number of systems changed, some bugs were to be expected, but the large number of prominent bugs in the major systems should have kept this pre-patch from being delivered. It seems many of the major systems were not even fully tested or evaluated. Specifically, the tuning of Legion Dungeons and Raids, the tuning of Mount Dropping Legacy Raids, the Profession Levelling changes, and the new Guild Interface stand out as major failings. There are probably others. I’m sure you’re working on fixing them and I’m sure you’ll eventually get them all fixed. This too, shall pass. And you’ll get back to developing the next content to be rolled out and the next expansions. We may not see this amount of systems changes to the game ever again. We will likely see a stat squish in the expansion after the next expansion (2022) along with other systems changes and class and spec redesigns. Please learn from this and use these lessons for all subsequent pre-patches.

Give yourself enough time. Plan for a long tail to the expansion. Embrace a long tail to the expansion. Give players something new to do in the tail of the expansion. Create crossover content in other games with in game WoW rewards (Primal Flamesaber, Graves, etc.). Introduce a new dungeon or raid (Ruby Sanctum). (Could the Silithis quest line have been a dungeon with replayability and sweet loot rather than a quest line?) Introduce a new brawl. (Could Seething Shore have a new Brawl associated with it?) Introduce a “Loremaster Buff” that gives you four times (or ten times) the experience in specific regions of the world (Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor, Outlands or Northrend, Cataclysm or Pandaria, Draenor or Broken Shore – not the whole world so people can choose to take advantage of or to not take advantage of the buff). These are just a few ideas. Don’t rush the pre-patch, again. Don’t rush the launch again. Don't make these mistakes again.

I’m counting on you and believe in you.

Neall on Medivh


I feel this perfectly describes everyone's issues without the whining, crying and ranting.

I'm also very happy a MVP took the time to make a detailed post anywhere on these forums as of late. I'm hoping this thread stays visible and on the front page so Blizzard and other MVPs can take note of this.
07/23/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Vercalis
I expect more than doom and gloom and pessimism from an MVP.

Prepatches always have bugs. Most things have already been smoothed and worked out.

Yes, there are problems, but to decry and entire expansion and prepatch as a mistake is below your station. Be better.


It's below his station? It's below a consumer's station to have an opinion about the product they are consuming? WOW, that's low-IQ !@#$ right there. "DUDE, YOU PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT - YOU CANNOT HAVE A NEGATIVE OPINION OF IT, MUCH LESS A LARGELY WELL-WRITTEN CONSTRUCTIVE OPINION ON WHY THINGS ARE BAD."

MVP's aren't consumers now? MVP's aren't players that can have an opinion now, dude? I'm not sure you even know what an MVP is, they're encouraged to disagree as long as it's constructive....and this is constructive.

You're just decrying someone's opinion because you want to, that's it, no real grounds of logic except whining about someone else's whining.
07/24/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Flozur
I feel this perfectly describes everyone's issues without the whining, crying and ranting.

I'm also very happy a MVP took the time to make a detailed post anywhere on these forums as of late. I'm hoping this thread stays visible and on the front page so Blizzard and other MVPs can take note of this.


What do you want Blizzard to do exactly?

Everything the OP highlighted - it is addressed in the latest Q&A along with an apology, an acknowledgement that they F up the patch and they are scrambling to fix the scaling bugs as they identified it.

They say no to reverting Master Loot.

They say no to reverting GCD change - but they will hear feedback to see what spell they might remove off GCD. But Offensive CD are a no go 100% (apart from Heroism/Bloodlust)

They say no to allowing power leveling - and they don't like that a max level toon can power level anyone through dungeon grind and certainly detest the KARA leveling trick - Completion EXP will be added to the Random Dungeon Finder Bonus - acknowledge that there might be a bug regarding that and is working To fix it. The whole idea is to gate your leveling experience or force you to buy boost if you want to skip the Grind - but who in the right mind is going to outright said that. You know I know they know - its just business.

(And to have someone who claims to be working in a listed company and a shareholder - to suggest that they add a Exp buff on Zones to encourage power leveling - lol - it does not make any sense for them to help a Player get to max level ASAP - the longer you take, the longer you stay subscribed - Business 101)

So tell me, what you want Blizzard to do? Please keep in mind that they also have to make their shareholders and investors happy too.
Just look at what happened with the ap tokens when weapon was dismantled or whatever that was, that was definitly an oversight that they scrambled to fix, and Neall is right, someone at the round table could have brought that up. Won't stop me from playing though, I'll be here till the horde invent bulldozers and mow stormwind into the ground . :) P.S. Neall rocks!

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