ban me if you want

Battlegrounds
but melee on ranged is !@#$ed up. i am going to start a protest on the forums.
What are you exactly trying to start here? Melee's have had the run of the expansion. This is the least wizard cleave dominated meta we have seen in awhile.
Melee is way OP. Always highest in the damage meters there's no way for ranged to kite them because Melee abilities are WAY op
most range can outplay(kite) melee if they do things the right way. its all a game of complex chess- trading cooldowns based on awareness. unfortunately the current scaling makes it harder . be more specific in your explanation too :P
07/21/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Zapolo
Melee is way OP. Always highest in the damage meters there's no way for ranged to kite them because Melee abilities are WAY op


Wrong:

https://imgur.com/a/KL8Hksl

Just a bunch of randoms I did yesterday and many of them had spriest/boomkin/warlocks/even a mage as highest damage. It's not that bad tbh. Don't mind my damage though, I'm just average... but a good caster can bring the pain!
Numbers are out of line at the moment, it's prepatch, we've got 23 days until we can get out of this twink bracket.

Also this is how it is at the start of every xpac. A few melee secs are out of line, ranged specs tend to fall behind (some outliers exist obv e.g. balance and marks) second season of the xpac will be the most balanced, and by the end of the expac wizards will be running rampant and melee will be in the dustbin. This is literally every expansion pack since wrath of the lich king.
Position might help out some. Max range being key. Look for other players on team to stay near so you compliment cc such as a mage or ele. Hunters with one of those classes working together is tough.
Assist the guy up front chopping dudes down.
Peel the heal.
You complain about melee on ranged. Yet I'm in perma-roots 85% of the game. I see more Boomkins, Discs, and Hunters than anything else now.
The above posts hurt my brain, anecdotal evidence is very well, anecdotal. Just because you get blown up by range doesn't mean they're overpowered. Melee has strong representation this expansion, Cleave comps (two melee, one healer) are far more prominent this xpac than wizard comps (two caster, one healer) unlike previous xpacs.
07/21/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Tablex
The above posts hurt my brain, anecdotal evidence is very well, anecdotal. Just because you get blown up by range doesn't mean they're overpowered. Melee has strong representation this expansion, Cleave comps (two melee, one healer) are far more prominent this xpac than wizard comps (two caster, one healer) unlike previous xpacs.

Nobody, in any of the above posts, said anything about ranged being OP.
They're mostly pointing out that ranged are not sitting ducks like the common scrubs of the forum like to believe. They may take more awareness and effort than a melee might, but they can perform very well when played right and with a decent team.
07/21/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Herc
They may take more awareness and effort than a melee might

07/21/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Herc
when played right and with a decent team.


Yes. That is what I am protesting against. Your "ranged can do well" is subject to so many conditions, have you noticed?

1. more awareness
2. more effort
3. when played right
4. decent team required

Not so many conditions required for a melee player, yes?

so! I am confused. do you disagree on the point that melee have advantage over ranged? i think not. your post confirms that to get good results as ranged, you need at least these 4 conditions. so...you agree...but want to sound like you disagree for the sake of it. this part i dont get, WHY?

07/21/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Wasupdude
if they do things the right way.


are we seeing a pattern here?
seeemon demons took our jerbs
Yes. That is what I am protesting against. Your "ranged can do well" is subject to so many conditions, have you noticed?

1. more awareness
2. more effort
3. when played right
4. decent team required

You're protesting that ranged classes have to play at range in order to be decent..?
Those are not 4 individual or exclusive conditions, and conditions are not exclusive to ranged players.
1. Awareness - Ranged need to know their positioning and LoS. However, so does melee. If melee gets LoS'd from his own healers then he can get rekt pretty hard.
2. Effort - Knowing how to cc/slow and kite the melee players. But melee still requires effort as well. Have you tried gap closing on frost mages right now? They'll emote spam /rofl at you while blinking/rooting/sheeping you all day.
3. When played right - Yes, when you properly play as the role/class/spec that you chose. You think boomies running into melee range is being played right?
4. Decent team required - nobody wins BGs alone. If your team cannot support each other and synergize then you will lose regardless of whether you play range or melee. In the context of ranged players your team should understand that you need range or you'll get melee trained. In the context of melee players your team should understand that you may need more focused heals, defensive support (such as ironbark from resto druids), and cleanses from DoTs.
The above are just arbitrary examples to demonstrate that both ranged and melee each have their own set of concerns in a given "condition".

You're a ranged player. Stay at range. Stop getting close enough for melee to gap close you (no melee has 40 yard gap closers). If you're at a proper range and LoS then melee are not going to be able to get to you easily because they'll have to pass through the rest of your team and this will get them killed. This is Range 101.
07/21/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Branol
but melee on ranged is !@#$ed up. i am going to start a protest on the forums.


Boo-hoo.

signed

happy warrior who can chase the mage who roots me 500 times and blinks 50 times and has a 5 second iceblock cd.
07/21/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Wasupdude
most range can outplay(kite) melee if they do things the right way. its all a game of complex chess- trading cooldowns based on awareness. unfortunately the current scaling makes it harder . be more specific in your explanation too :P


This is not even true. You have no idea how the client/server interaction works between melee and classes that have to stand still to cast. It is literally impossible to kite melee on any casted class right now due to server/client lag.

When a caster is standing still and a melee is 40 yards away on the casters screen, they are 25 yards away or closer on the meleee screen. EVery single gap closer works at this range. This is why you can be a ranged class and see a warrior charge you at 40 yards at times. Its due to latency and this has been an issue since vanilla and sadly, no one talks about it.

The fact that the game is balanced around a LAN and not the internet is part of the reason ranged players have had an almost impossible time kiting melee since...forever.

Get two accounts, run them on the same computer. Take note the positions of the melee player moving and the casted player standing still. Compare play field placement with time markers and you get two completely different things.

There is no such thing as kiting anymore. Its not even cat and mouse anymore. Its charge, stun, dead.
07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc
Yes. That is what I am protesting against. Your "ranged can do well" is subject to so many conditions, have you noticed?

1. more awareness
2. more effort
3. when played right
4. decent team required

You're protesting that ranged classes have to play at range in order to be decent..?
Those are not 4 individual or exclusive conditions, and conditions are not exclusive to ranged players.
1. Awareness - Ranged need to know their positioning and LoS. However, so does melee. If melee gets LoS'd from his own healers then he can get rekt pretty hard.
2. Effort - Knowing how to cc/slow and kite the melee players. But melee still requires effort as well. Have you tried gap closing on frost mages right now? They'll emote spam /rofl at you while blinking/rooting/sheeping you all day.
3. When played right - Yes, when you properly play as the role/class/spec that you chose. You think boomies running into melee range is being played right?
4. Decent team required - nobody wins BGs alone. If your team cannot support each other and synergize then you will lose regardless of whether you play range or melee. In the context of ranged players your team should understand that you need range or you'll get melee trained. In the context of melee players your team should understand that you may need more focused heals, defensive support (such as ironbark from resto druids), and cleanses from DoTs.
The above are just arbitrary examples to demonstrate that both ranged and melee each have their own set of concerns in a given "condition".

You're a ranged player. Stay at range. Stop getting close enough for melee to gap close you (no melee has 40 yard gap closers). If you're at a proper range and LoS then melee are not going to be able to get to you easily because they'll have to pass through the rest of your team and this will get them killed. This is Range 101.


REad my post above. The melee/ranged synergy does not work quite like you people think it does.
07/21/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Kik
This is not even true. You have no idea how the client/server interaction works between melee and classes that have to stand still to cast. It is literally impossible to kite melee on any casted class right now due to server/client lag.

When a caster is standing still and a melee is 40 yards away on the casters screen, they are 25 yards away or closer on the meleee screen. EVery single gap closer works at this range. This is why you can be a ranged class and see a warrior charge you at 40 yards at times. Its due to latency and this has been an issue since vanilla and sadly, no one talks about it.

I could see this being the case if someone from China is trying to play on a US server. But otherwise I've never seen this being the case. I've played numerous caster specs over the years and ranging people was nothing like you're claiming. I did not have warriors charging me from 40 yards. Alternatively, I've also mained a warrior and could not charge casters who are ~40 yards from me.
Do you have a source for this stuff you're saying?

07/21/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Kik
There is no such thing as kiting anymore. Its not even cat and mouse anymore. Its charge, stun, dead.

Even putting aside your statements about lag/latency, this sounds like something only scrubs would say when they're mad about getting killed by melee.
07/21/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Herc
07/21/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Kik
This is not even true. You have no idea how the client/server interaction works between melee and classes that have to stand still to cast. It is literally impossible to kite melee on any casted class right now due to server/client lag.

When a caster is standing still and a melee is 40 yards away on the casters screen, they are 25 yards away or closer on the meleee screen. EVery single gap closer works at this range. This is why you can be a ranged class and see a warrior charge you at 40 yards at times. Its due to latency and this has been an issue since vanilla and sadly, no one talks about it.

I could see this being the case if someone from China is trying to play on a US server. But otherwise I've never seen this being the case. I've played numerous caster specs over the years and ranging people was nothing like you're claiming. I did not have warriors charging me from 40 yards. Alternatively, I've also mained a warrior and could not charge casters who are ~40 yards from me.
Do you have a source for this stuff you're saying?

07/21/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Kik
There is no such thing as kiting anymore. Its not even cat and mouse anymore. Its charge, stun, dead.

Even putting aside your statements about lag/latency, this sounds like something only scrubs would say when they're mad about getting killed by melee.


Dude...you are not going to notice it unless you can see both accounts at the same time. I already said on the melees mobility screen you will SEE 25 yards, but on the casters screen you are 40 yards.

You need to run two games side by side, both of which are obviously connecting to the blizzard servers and then back to your PC. You will see a discrepancy in distance on the melee toon and casters. When I say caster, I mean someone who is casting. I dont see this too often on my hunter because he is mobile (as BM) but the second I go to MM, I see it all the time. I am in dallas connected to teh chicago server. When I first noticed this issue I was in dallas connected to the dallas server which was moved to chicago.

Again, the key is one class being mobile, and the other casting (while standing in the same spot, not mobile casting). When you are standing still, your coords become fixed and where the other people see you in game is where you are. But you DO NOT see people moving in game in the same space.

Hell, you want to test this another way. Get in game with a buddy and "race". See who says they are in first, I bet both of you think you are ahead of the other person. I see this DAILY when I play with my GF. She claims to be in front of me on her mount where on my screen I am in front of her. Anyone can test this.

The same thing applies to mobile classses vs standing still classes. The standing still class will always see you at a greater distance than you are from them.

The issue is that this favors melee and does nothing for casters. The reason frost mages have usually done well was cause they could root the melee in place, or perma slow them, which widens the range gap.

Go test it.

EDIT: The last part of your comment was completely unnecessary. Attack the topic nto the player. It makes you look pathetic.
07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc

You're protesting that ranged classes have to play at range in order to be decent..?

Please quote me where I said that. If you can't you are straight up lying.

07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc

1. Awareness - Ranged need to know their positioning and LoS. However, so does melee. If melee gets LoS'd from his own healers then he can get rekt pretty hard.

Please don't mix up arenas and bgs. In random bgs most of the fights happen in the open in the mid where there are not many chances to pillar hump.

Separately, dont bring healers into the mix. Just think about a ranged dps vs melee dps.

07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc

2. Effort - Knowing how to cc/slow and kite the melee players. But melee still requires effort as well. Have you tried gap closing on frost mages right now? They'll emote spam /rofl at you while blinking/rooting/sheeping you all day.

So you are just listing abilities to make them sound powerful. You are a rogue. Let me list your counters to each one of those:
Blink: Sprint/shadowstrike
rooting: cloak of shadows, evasion
sheeping: cloak of shadows, evasion, interupts

Do you want to say that while these defensives are active, you would have no problem killing off a mage? Its a catch 22 for you. If you say yes: you prove my point. If you say no: you prove you are not a good rogue.

Besides, lets not forget that you have stealth and stuns which lets you choose when to open. And experience tells me that rogues choose to open on targets already engaged in 1v1 combat and at half health.

07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc

3. When played right - Yes, when you properly play as the role/class/spec that you chose. You think boomies running into melee range is being played right?
4. Decent team required - nobody wins BGs alone. If your team cannot support each other and synergize then you will lose regardless of whether you play range or melee. In the context of ranged players your team should understand that you need range or you'll get melee trained. In the context of melee players your team should understand that you may need more focused heals, defensive support (such as ironbark from resto druids), and cleanses from DoTs.
The above are just arbitrary examples to demonstrate that both ranged and melee each have their own set of concerns in a given "condition".

no, a melee CAN and often do win bgs alone. A DH or warrior can utilize their insane mobility with plate armor to capture a flag. I have seen warriors pop all their cds and whirlwind and wipe the opposing team. What range can do that?

Tell me, if 3 warriors/dhs/rogues/pallis fight against 3locks/mages/priests with no healers or whatever out in the open, which group will win? assume equal skill and none of that "if played right" bull!@#$. What synergy helps out here?

07/21/2018 03:10 PMPosted by Herc

You're a ranged player. Stay at range. Stop getting close enough for melee to gap close you (no melee has 40 yard gap closers). If you're at a proper range and LoS then melee are not going to be able to get to you easily because they'll have to pass through the rest of your team and this will get them killed. This is Range 101.

Are you saying, I RUN next to that warrior, or an invisible rogue and then try to cast my spells?? Like what? Of course I stay at fuching range! " (no melee has 40 yard gap closers)." %^-*ing what?

Heroic leap: 40 yard range.
Metamorphosis: 40 yard range
2xchi torpedo: 50 yard

These are just rebuttal to the "no 40 yard ability" statement. Apart from these, there are the regular, charges, sprints, and slows. With these things, they DONT have to pass through the rest of the team. If a melee wants to get to a lock at 40 yard range, they can and they will.

I feel like you are making arguments in bad faith. Like you know that melee are OP but you want to keep it that way and so are coming up with misinformation and bull!@#$ arguments.
Yea OP! On my hunter I always get pwned by melee. I mean, I just stand there and don't use my kit. But c'mon blizz. I don't wanna lose!

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