Mob Scaling

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^ agree with that post as well. I just dont want to quote it.

But to add to it, I understand people want to have the older content matter. But guess what? There's just too much of it. If we slowed down the game so each zone felt appropriate, the time to level to 110 (or 120) would just be too long, even longer than it is right now.
07/26/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Xiata
07/26/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Canebelle
...

I resubbed for the new expansion and started leveling this toon from level 91. The experience was excruciating. It wasn't so much the total time spent as much as the feeling of wasted time either doing graveyard runs or having to eat after every mob because they hit so hard. Once I hit 98 and went to the Broken Isles things felt normal. Doing quests is now enjoyable and if I die it is because I did something stupid.

The experience moving from Draenor to Legion was "unexpectedly pleasing" rather than "jarring". Please, please, please adjust the lower levels to be more like 98-110 rather than nerfing the Broken Isles.

Personally I think players should be able to level to 110 in 40 hours or so if they want. Tuning the heirloom leveling experience for players with a max-level character around that timeframe seems like it would be a decent compromise. Those that want to spend 100+ hours experiencing all the low-level content can then decide to do it without heirlooms.


^ This, right here. Totally this

heirlooms shouldn't require a max level anything to work properly. When I bought and paid for them, there were no level restrictions.

I expect stuff to work as it did when I bought it. Sick to death of this bait and switch #%$
It's been over a week. Blizzard said in the last Q&A that these problems happened because they tried to squish everything at once using a formula. So, I cant see why is it taking to so long to reduce these mobs HP and damage done by a certain percentage, at least as a temporary fix. You can properly tune it later on if you want, but we need a fix right now.

End game (raiding and mythic+) is pretty much pointless right now, and leveling is nearly unplayable after level 40. All we have left are BGs, xmog farm and rep grind for 3 weeks. Deploy a temporary fix or pull back the squish until you figure out your stuff, please.
07/25/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Gohtak
Anecdotal evidence as seen through these threads would indicate that the majority of your player base fall squarely on the other side of the issue.

I totally get what you're saying but, you only have your side of what you see which people who are usually complacent and happy don't have complaints about it. Also critical posts typically are the ones that people rally behind rather than positive, which is just how the internet works, but its fine just explaining the perspective. You also have to realize that WoW has millions of players, only a small percentage of them post on the forums. So while it seems anecdotal, for the development team they have data for these kinds of decisions.


I'm glad you guys aren't blankly listening to all the whining and are making decisions based on data and the full picture. Personally I like leveling. I wouldn't mind if minor adjustments were made to things like pacing, damage done/taken, talent/ability gain, etc. But I don't want to see any major changes happen and if nothing changed I'd be ok with that, too.
07/26/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
It's only being changed to what it was at 7.3.5, for many it's still borked and needs to go back to 7.2 levels.

But that's pretty off topic to this thread, and the crusade that it's derailed in to and drawn me in as well. 8.0 =/= 7.3.5, yet people are using 8.0 as evidence that 7.3.5 needs to be rolled back.

You and I have had many discussions about 7.3.5 with the final word ultimately being "we find different things fun"... the idea that 7.3.5's design philosophy being less fun for some somehow meaning it's broken is a little disingenuous. Clearly there are broken or weird elements of 8.0 that OP outlined, but those characterizing the identity of the game design is just not accurate... especially when Blizzard themselves said they're working on it and outlined how big of a job it is.
07/26/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Ava
07/26/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
It's only being changed to what it was at 7.3.5, for many it's still borked and needs to go back to 7.2 levels.

But that's pretty off topic to this thread, and the crusade that it's derailed in to and drawn me in as well. 8.0 =/= 7.3.5, yet people are using 8.0 as evidence that 7.3.5 needs to be rolled back.

You and I have had many discussions about 7.3.5 with the final word ultimately being "we find different things fun"... the idea that 7.3.5's design philosophy being less fun for some somehow meaning it's broken is a little disingenuous. Clearly there are broken or weird elements of 8.0 that OP outlined, but those characterizing the identity of the game design is just not accurate... especially when Blizzard themselves said they're working on it and outlined how big of a job it is.


You may view it as off topic, and I understand that.

My issue is that this is how this current Dev staff does things. They break something and people don't like it, then they try to do something else with it and make it worse, and their 'solution' is to go back to what it was.

It's infantile argumentation that they are practicing. If you like what 7.3.5 is, that's fine, but there are way too many people on here that will act like what ever they revert to is a fix, instead of what the issue was to begin with.

I admit fully that leveling needed work. But the fix isn't to make things hit harder and take longer. It needs to be a more robust experience, included by actually having some power progression relative to mobs, skills, spells, and abilities all being earned along the way, not just once in a while.

Just deciding to make it take longer isn't a solution and I'm amazed at the number of people that think that's a good solution.
Mob scaling in the pre-Legion leveling world is 100% not working properly. There is no way this can be intended by Blizzard.

For anyone who argues that leveling is totally normal, your perception is skewed and you are the minority. I promise. And Ion confirmed it (though vaguely) in the last Q&A.

I'm leveling a demo lock (level 54 currently), which is pretty OP at the moment after the 8.0 changes and hits like a truck, also has the felguard which holds aggro 90% of the time, full heirlooms, and it's taking me a very long time to kill normal world and quest mobs. I can literally kill Rare mobs faster than regular mobs. I don't die because my felguard is able to hold threat most of the time, but I can only imagine what it's like for classes with no tank pet.

I am going through my full rotation several times to kill every single regular mob. What purpose would this serve other than to needlessly lengthen old world leveling? And why would Blizzard want to do this?

Now how does this compare to leveling from 100 - 110?

I leveled the same class/spec (demo lock) from 100 - 110 and gained levels at lightning speed compared to leveling through pre-Legion content. Regular mobs died after 2 - 3 hits.

This doesn't make sense on any level. As I previously stated, this cannot be intentional. If Blizzard could please come out and specifically confirm this (not the vague answer Ion gave at the last Q&A, not bashing you Ion, I think you are lovely and doing a great job all things considered), confirm they are working on it, and give us an ETA on a fix, it would be amazing.
07/26/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Ava
Blizzard themselves said they're working on it and outlined how big of a job it is.


Maybe they shouldn't bite off more than they can chew. Ya know, like not implementing a feature if it's not ready? They did the same thing with Communities and look what happened with that.... /js
07/23/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Yasudra
theyve already admitted that low level tuning is messed up. they focused on legion and bfa content and are planning on going back to fix pre-legion content.

we will have to be patient.

Patient?

There are new races to level from 20. That is literally part of the new CONTENT.

If I find BfA not to my taste due to ridiculous storyline, I'd like to still participate in the content. But they've made the old world unplayable for both leveling and going back to solo old instances for mounts/pet/mogs, that we should out level at this point.

BfA is BROKEN. And there is ZERO PROGRESSION. They've broken the entire MMO design.

At least I'm still getting a new hot fix every single time I open the launcher....

But this should never have made it to live.
07/23/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
The people that are saying it's not an issue will literally say anything to protect their beloved Blizzard.

It's the most important relationship many of them have ever had.
I wonder what they pay these people to tow the Blizzard line and white knight for them (are some of them just Blizz employees posting during their breaks?)

It's like, the *majority* of players in a thread will be "against" issue X, then along comes one or two of these white knights/fan boy types saying the most obvious scripted-sounding corporate lines, they will re-use the same arguments in different threads as well - almost verbatim. They don't come across as genuine and it really makes you wonder if they are secretly "getting something" in return for their pro-Blizzard stance and anti-player commentary.

Are they bots? Employees posting under alts? Are they getting "paid" somehow to support unpopular changes to the game? It really makes you wonder...
Basic software development rule: if a feature doesnt work at all, you dont release it.

You add new races, demand (no one is forcing you to unlock it, i know) that people level them manually from 20 to 110 to unlock their unique transmog sets, no boost allowed, while at the same time you completely break the leveling experience.

Devs really hit an unprecedented level of amateurism, or a sadist is ahead of BfA game design.
07/25/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Ythisens
Hey guys! We've been discussing the continued concerns about the speed of leveling since the pre-patch and we have a couple of updates to share with you.

Since the pre-patch we've made a large number of hotfixes and changes to leveling content, and are continuing to find and fix bugs wherever possible. The intention was never to make leveling slower than it was in 7.3.5.

If you're still finding it slower that it was a couple of weeks ago after those hotfixes, specifics about where you are, what you're fighting, and what spec you're playing would be extremely helpful for identifying any remaining issues.

There is also a bit of weirdness at the moment with mob HP once you reach Legion content. Essentially due to de-powering the Artifact, we needed to make outdoor Legion mobs weaker than earlier content; otherwise, max level players would find themselves suddenly having a much harder time with outdoor world content such as World Quests. The development team realizes that this is resulting in a very jarring experience moving from Draenor to the Broken Isles, and plans to adjust Legion content to be more in-line with where it should be as leveling content in a future patch.

Thank you guys for your continued feedback on this!


C'mon you guys had all kinds of time to fix and adjust the gameplay before this release ...you guys are definitely getting lazier and lazier
07/26/2018 10:40 AMPosted by Hitomi
Basic software development rule: if a feature doesnt work at all, you dont release it.

You add new races, demand (no one is forcing you to unlock it, i know) that people level them manually from 20 to 110 to unlock their unique transmog sets, no boost allowed, while at the same time you completely break the leveling experience.

Devs really hit an unprecedented level of amateurism, or a sadist is ahead of BfA game design.
Bean counters are happy though. Players? Not so much.
07/26/2018 10:40 AMPosted by Hitomi
Basic software development rule: if a feature doesnt work at all, you dont release it.

You add new races, demand (no one is forcing you to unlock it, i know) that people level them manually from 20 to 110 to unlock their unique transmog sets, no boost allowed, while at the same time you completely break the leveling experience.

Devs really hit an unprecedented level of amateurism, or a sadist is ahead of BfA game design.


Totally agree ..I'm cancelling my membership after being here since early Wrath
07/26/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Vizantius
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Keep in mind a big part of the reason for this is due to how scaling works. Pre-8.0, we were doing almost 1000x as much DPS to an equally leveled enemy at 110 than at 80. It's now substantially less.


I am going to side with something that Asmongold said in one of his streams here not too long ago. We should never depreciate in power when we move to a new Expansion. Especially wen it is older content. content that is four expansions removed from what we are in now.

I was also soloing Cata level content in WoD, If i step foot in any Cata related content, i should have Zero issues with it as of today. Same goes for Mist content. Any content from WotLK should be with out questionable soloable and done iwth in seconds. the fact its taking any amount of time to push those bosses over is ridiculously sad on Blizzards part.

I don't disagree, but that means we can't have stat squishes, or we'll have people doing ridiculous DPS.

For example, we did 4 million DPS or whatever in current content and did ~400 DPS at level 20, and ~4000 DPS at leve 70 (IIRC). To keep things equally comparable and squish us to 2k DPS, we'd need to do 0.2 DPS at level 20, and 2 DPS at level 70.

IMO it would have made more sense to squish the appearance, rather than the damage itself. Make 4,000,000 into 4.0 m. Make 40,000 into 40.0 k. It'd be squished to a small and easily digestible number, but wouldn't hurt the comparative strength over time.
Still frustrated that leveling has been made so slow because of some concept that this is what the customer base asked for: slower leveling.

I thought the streamlining idea was great and bringing big chunks of zones together for the same levels was also great.

But making things take 3x longer? Not so great.

Pre 7.3.5 warlock alt 1-110 1 day /played time. Combo of questing while waiting for dungeon Qs.

Post 7.3.5 rogue alt 20-110 for void elf heirloom... 3 days /played. Combo of questing while waiting for dungeon Qs.

Both had max heirlooms.
07/24/2018 01:21 PMPosted by Amine
07/23/2018 09:55 AMPosted by Seraca
There are a lot of people complaining about leveling and how long it takes to kill mobs and that mobs have higher health than max level legion mobs.

But then you got a group of people that claim that's not true and it's all just a lie.

So I got bored and decided I'm gonna fly around and take a couple pictures to prove these people wrong.

I will post links to the pictures as proof but also show the health here for those to lazy to click a picture.

1.) Vanilla: Mob level 61 Health 3088
https://imgur.com/9urErjo
2.) Burning Crusade: Mob level 81 Health 5191
https://imgur.com/O0Lld9g
3.) Wrath: Mob level 81 Health 5059
https://imgur.com/vcVXCGU
4.) Pandaria: Mob level 91 Health 6519
https://imgur.com/d6gQ63O
5.) WoD: Mob level 101 Health 11228
https://imgur.com/gn7iMCB
6.) Legion: Mob level 111 Health 4332
https://imgur.com/qmN40Cv
7.) Legion (Broken Shore): Mob level 111 Health 5486
https://imgur.com/Bh7l5s0

Scaling is screwed up and needs fix there is no reason mobs in Wrath-WoD should have more health than legion mobs. Especially WoD mobs having more than twice as much.

Leveling is not okay it's broken anyone who says mob health is fine is way wrong.

THIS IS NOT OKAY. I just figured we needed some picture proof this time.


You do know mob health from mob to mob is not consistent in each expansion right ? There always have been difference in health between 110 mobs. I also don't understand your screens saying 111 mobs either tbh.

Anyway here is another mob from legion a 110 mob with 8023 health. I don't know about your other expansions but currently in legion content I am having to take 3 times as long to kill things as I had previous to last week.

https://imgur.com/a/AFOjEEv


Let's go slowly since you don't appear capable...

8k Legion mob is still less than an 11k WoD mob

This the reason the dislike button should not have been removed.
We should never depreciate in power when we move to a new Expansion.


This is what has happened for WoD, Legion, and BfA.

In each expansion we had either a squish, a revamp, or a reset in your character abilities.

It's like they are out of room in the game, and the only thing to do is make you re-earn what you had before. We haven't progressed forward in 5 years. All we did is change things to appear that we have.
07/26/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Purrs
Still frustrated that leveling has been made so slow because of some concept that this is what the customer base asked for: slower leveling.

I thought the streamlining idea was great and bringing big chunks of zones together for the same levels was also great.

But making things take 3x longer? Not so great.

Pre 7.3.5 warlock alt 1-110 1 day /played time. Combo of questing while waiting for dungeon Qs.

Post 7.3.5 rogue alt 20-110 for void elf heirloom... 3 days /played. Combo of questing while waiting for dungeon Qs.

Both had max heirlooms.


I had about the same results, never bothered to finish leveling on the post 7.3.5 toon though.

Took me 2 days played to get to level 91 after 7.3.5
and about 1.5 days played to get to 105 before 7.3.5

I only remember this because i do /played when im done playing a toon for the day :P
Leveling shouldn't take long. They pruned abilities and classes don't develop passed levels 60-70 except for a few talents. There's no need to drag out leveling when players don't get anything new except for 2 talents passed level 75. 20-30 Hours for veteran players to hit max level is enough for them to "learn their class." 40 Hours is enough for new players.

The idea behind the Allied Race heritage armor was to keep players subbed to game for the half year leading up to BfA launch. But now they are continuing this to the newer allied races and it's okay if it takes 20-24 hours to get the heritage armor like it took me in 7.3.5. But now it's taking days of /played time and it's getting ridiculous.

I think either:
-The WoW team is completely incompetent and they knew this would happen but let it go through anyway. In which case they should all be fired, including Ion for giving the okay to release this crap of a pre-patch.
Or, they Intentionally released this crap scaling to that when they "fix" it they can pretend that all the people who complained about the 7.3.5 leveling experience will be okay with the status quo since it's not as bad as 8.0. (I honestly didn't mind the 7.3.5 leveling experience, but that's because of the Kara farm).
Or, the were completely not ready for this level of brokenness, but they're too busy fixing other stuff and finishing the BfA content they are rushing to complete for the release.

When I pre-ordered BfA I expected to at least get a game that was functioning. Instead I get 3 weeks of live server testing and hotfixes and an expansion that is has terrible story and class design and is being rushed out without things being finished.

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