Mob Scaling

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Can't they just do a flat HP reduction to make it an easy fix? Whatever they've got coded it should be easy to fix if they just do a flat HP reduction pre-100. Take off 50 percent of the mob's HP, and in draenor 75 percent since it is ridiculously high.
The above poster just made another good point. From roughly level 65 to max level, you get essentially NOTHING new as far as new abilities go. Maybe every 5 to 10 levels do you even have the hope of getting a new spell added to your arsenal. So for vast swaths of time (a dozen hours or more most likely) you will gain NOTHING. You are likely in heirlooms, so you may not even replace a single piece of gear in that time-frame. All you are doing is watching and excruciatingly long EXP bar slowly fill up inch by inch.
It really feels like Blizz is trying to ignore the player base...

Us knuckle dragging fools who think leveling should be faster/more fun than watching paint dry are just wrong apparently.
07/26/2018 11:33 AMPosted by Markness
Can't they just do a flat HP reduction to make it an easy fix? Whatever they've got coded it should be easy to fix if they just do a flat HP reduction pre-100. Take off 50 percent of the mob's HP, and in draenor 75 percent since it is ridiculously high.

That's exactly what I think they should do, except that a 50%/75% reduction is too much. Also, I don't feel that mob health is all that excessive except in draenor where mob health is insane. If they did reduce the health of all pre-Legion mobs, I'd suggest around a 25% reduction with a 50% reduction in Draenor.
07/26/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Trixiekoopa
I am going through my full rotation several times to kill every single regular mob.


I don't see this on this affliction lock. One cast of unstable, corruption, agony, drain soul is killing each quest mob for me in Icecrown.

07/26/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Beps
^ agree with that post as well. I just dont want to quote it.

But to add to it, I understand people want to have the older content matter. But guess what? There's just too much of it. If we slowed down the game so each zone felt appropriate, the time to level to 110 (or 120) would just be too long, even longer than it is right now.


I for one like the quest combat pacing. If you want to increase XP fine with me. If you want to buff xp% on Heirlooms, fine with me.

I agree that dungeons shouldn't feel akin to mythics. I agree that time spent in Wotlk/BC quest feels inconsistent with the other expansions.

If Legion questing is the standard, then time spent in other expansions should be half or less.

However one-two shotting mobs is NOT the answer!

Furthermore I don't experience what people are saying about Draenor named mobs taking 3-5 minutes, or people getting wrecked by named mobs.

It takes me 40sec or less on my 92 ret paladin with only my weapon being BoA, using no cooldowns other than using wake of ashes once. My health was never in danger even standing in fire. See below:

https://imgur.com/a/6XdAI9C if you want to view, apologies for the bad resolution. The free video converter doesn't care that I've got a wide screen.

So if someone is taking 3-5 min, what mob?
I'm going to toss my 2c in here.

TL;DR
Pre-8 felt pretty good for the most part but Wrath was a slog. I also cheated in early levels with the monk xp buff - so that's probably why it felt right.

Post-8 feels rough in certain zones. Mob xp is too low across the board. Mob time to kill is all over the place too.

The long-winded story...
I'm currently working on a LFD Warrior, Fury spec, that I started when 8.0.1 dropped... since there was no war of thorns at the time :|

I also just leveled to 110 a Void Elf WW Monk that I went slowly off and on pre-8.0.1, but powered through once I hit 80 and escaped Wrath.

Note: I'm using heirlooms and enchants

So, some details on pre-8.0.1

  • The monk buff to xp gain REALLY helped me get through Wrath. Wrath feels excessively slow, and not just because it's 20 levels.
  • Additionally, the summer event, queuing up for the Frost Lord, and DMF helped considerably.
  • I had no interest in going through BC content... it's dead to me now :(
  • I also skipped Cataclysm content
  • Prior to 8.0.1, Warlords is a joke. If you're having a hard time with it then you're not doing it right. Same goes for Pandaria.
  • Once I got to Legion, I did mostly the normal run of things by questing in zones... but I did do a Legion invasion or two to help toward the end.


Pre-8.0.1 felt ok to me. Not great, it's still too slow for someone in full heirlooms and a monk xp buff for lower levels, but ok.

Post-8.0.1 I'm struggling. My LFD warrior with heirlooms and enchants has started to slow down on killing mobs considerably. I've noticed that leveling in Darkshore and Stonetalon mountains is very slow and tedious so I went back to Loch Modan. I <3 the Loch. I've moved quickly through those quests, they're well-clustered and I can do 3 at a time usually. I probably went 32-40 in Loch Modan. My only problem (and I opened a bug/suggestion for it) is the damn bug wings for one of the quests - the drop rate was horrible but if mob xp was better it wouldn't be so bad.

For a change of pace I've gone down to STV. Mobs in STV at 40 are slow and the XP from mobs and quests is lacking. Quests in Loch Modan were giving 12-14k, for example, and the kill X animals in STV is only 10k.

Across the board though... mob xp is too low.
If they fixed hierlooms and scaled back draenor I don't think anyone would complain anymore.
07/26/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Keelieanne
If they fixed hierlooms and scaled back draenor I don't think anyone would complain anymore.


60-80 is a PITA
07/26/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Nasix
07/26/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Keelieanne
If they fixed hierlooms and scaled back draenor I don't think anyone would complain anymore.


60-80 is a PITA


Buffing the hierlooms would help speed it up for those of us that want speed back. When I say fix hierlooms I mean stats and exp bonus
07/26/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
I admit fully that leveling needed work. But the fix isn't to make things hit harder and take longer. It needs to be a more robust experience, included by actually having some power progression relative to mobs, skills, spells, and abilities all being earned along the way, not just once in a while.

And that's the common ground we all had before Blizzcon 2017. I genuinely had a sense that no one really liked leveling for the function itself of leveling... they liked that it was trivial and over quickly, because in essence they didn't really want to do that activity itself... they wanted to try the latest content with a different class, faction, race, etc. For nearly everyone I conversed with on the forums, there was a consensus that leveling was largely a non-game chore, really only suitable as a Netflix companion.

The problem is that no one could agree on how it could be fixed. I honestly love 7.3.5's changes for what they are and how they dialed gameplay back into the game, but if someone asked me how I would've programmed it, the answer would've been "take it back to WotLK or further"... which I guarantee in the modern WoW space would've incited riots. I liked the feeling of danger leveling, the quests that required grouping or high levels of skill with your class, and a talent point system that put the ability to either succeed, or mess up your character royally in your own hands.

Furthermore, I'm honestly a bad judge of how long it should take to level, because I genuinely enjoy playing the game at any level if there is a game there to play... 2 shotting mobs that hit with wet noodles, and joining dungeons that require zero healing and tanking was an experience stripped of the feeling of "game", and felt like I was playing a mobile game's "press x to win" formula. I heirloom (edit: heritage*) leveled a void elf, and a draenei fully to 110 since 7.3.5, among others in various stages of the journey without heirlooms, just focusing on actually finishing zones and doing dungeons. It was nice to have gameplay available at every stage of the experience, instead of "you've spent more than an hour here... now everything is going to melt in your presence". I get that that's just my style, but I've always enjoyed WoW's core experience... not wondered how I could get by with playing it less and less.
07/26/2018 11:33 AMPosted by Markness
Can't they just do a flat HP reduction to make it an easy fix? Whatever they've got coded it should be easy to fix if they just do a flat HP reduction pre-100. Take off 50 percent of the mob's HP, and in draenor 75 percent since it is ridiculously high.
I believe this is something Ion was referring to when he stated they are basically rebuilding the old systems to allow for easier automation moving forward where they can literally turn a dial to tweak everything relative instead of having to manually adjust like they do now. He went on to say it's basically 8 games they have to now work on adjusting -- the goal is to make it all the same system.
07/26/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Keelieanne
Buffing the hierlooms would help speed it up for those of us that want speed back. When I say fix hierlooms I mean stats and exp bonus

I'm all for giving more exp on heirlooms, take the set to a full 100%. Normalizing the stats in relation to other gear was good though - besides a few fringe cases, I'm still seeing them as having slightly better stats than what's dropping.

The problem with having them be powerful again is that it creates a scenario of have / have-nots... dungeons require effort again, great! But when a wipe happens "kick the healer not in heirlooms" Pre-7.3.5 a character in full heirlooms could show up and solo dungeons / make healing and tanking pointless. Having everyone on a somewhat equal playing field irons out those issues. They still give a great exp boost, and fill in gear gaps for unlucky dungeon spammers.
07/25/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Ythisens

You're right the curve was adjusted to be smoother and a little bit slower in 7.3.5, so in comparison that would feel amazing, however that change was one that some players actually do enjoy.


Just how disconnected are you from the community to think the players actually enjoy this horribly slow leveling experience you have force down our throats?

Leveling now, with full heirlooms on, is even slower than it was in classic. It's completely ridiculous.

You have people out there going around stocking up on flasks just to level characters. You have people begging or paying for 110s to run them through dungeons. It's completely borked and you know it.

We aren't stupid. We know you're making it unbearable to force people to buy level boosts, and sad fact is that it is likely working.

Leveling speed was never an issue. People who have played through the game on multiple toons SHOULD be able to level to max level in the matter of a few hours. But new players, without heirlooms, and without help, could NEVER manage that, and those are the people you should want to force to experience the entire game. Not the people who have already experienced the entire game a bunch of times.

I have a lock sitting at 49 simply because I cannot stomach leveling anymore than I have. It's slow, tedious, and downright painful. And that is will full heirlooms.

Setting up zone scaling and dungeon scaling was an amazing idea. The disgusting reduction in leveling time was the exact opposite.

For those people out there that are actually enjoying this farce, they always had the option to remove their heirlooms and play through slowly. Just like those people who don't like flying, they always have the option not to fly. But no, to appease a minute percentage of the community at large you're going to jam crap most of us don't want down our throats, yet again.

You should set up an in game survey that pops up for everyone for a month. Give people a few thousand gold for completing it, and fill it with pertinent questions.

Do you like flying? Do you think flying should be gated at the beginning of an expansion?

Do you like the leveling speed for new characters? Do you think veteran players should level faster? Do you think veteran players should get free level boosts to the previous expac?

Do you like the time gating on new content? Do you like time gating on LFR?

yada yada yada

You will get COMPLETELY different results than going off what the vocal minority on the forums says. And don't pretend you don't have the tech to make that happen.
The solution to all this is simple: just revert everything to how it was pre-7.3.5

A few vocal minority "immersion crowd" weirdo players want to level slower? That's fine, THEY can just take off their heirlooms and level up using only questing/dungeon gear. No need to ruin the leveling process for everybody else.
07/26/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Shawcker
07/25/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Ythisens

You're right the curve was adjusted to be smoother and a little bit slower in 7.3.5, so in comparison that would feel amazing, however that change was one that some players actually do enjoy.


Just how disconnected are you from the community to think the players actually enjoy this horribly slow leveling experience you have force down our throats?

Leveling now, with full heirlooms on, is even slower than it was in classic. It's completely ridiculous.

You have people out there going around stocking up on flasks just to level characters. You have people begging or paying for 110s to run them through dungeons. It's completely borked and you know it.

We aren't stupid. We know you're making it unbearable to force people to buy level boosts, and sad fact is that it is likely working.

Leveling speed was never an issue. People who have played through the game on multiple toons SHOULD be able to level to max level in the matter of a few hours. But new players, without heirlooms, and without help, could NEVER manage that, and those are the people you should want to force to experience the entire game. Not the people who have already experienced the entire game a bunch of times.

I have a lock sitting at 49 simply because I cannot stomach leveling anymore than I have. It's slow, tedious, and downright painful. And that is will full heirlooms.

Setting up zone scaling and dungeon scaling was an amazing idea. The disgusting reduction in leveling time was the exact opposite.

For those people out there that are actually enjoying this farce, they always had the option to remove their heirlooms and play through slowly. Just like those people who don't like flying, they always have the option not to fly. But no, to appease a minute percentage of the community at large you're going to jam crap most of us don't want down our throats, yet again.

You should set up an in game survey that pops up for everyone for a month. Give people a few thousand gold for completing it, and fill it with pertinent questions.

Do you like flying? Do you think flying should be gated at the beginning of an expansion?

Do you like the leveling speed for new characters? Do you think veteran players should level faster? Do you think veteran players should get free level boosts to the previous expac?

Do you like the time gating on new content? Do you like time gating on LFR?

yada yada yada

You will get COMPLETELY different results than going off what the vocal minority on the forums says. And don't pretend you don't have the tech to make that happen.


Make this happen imo. Many games have in-game surveys.
07/26/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Ava
07/26/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Sweetpeaz
I admit fully that leveling needed work. But the fix isn't to make things hit harder and take longer. It needs to be a more robust experience, included by actually having some power progression relative to mobs, skills, spells, and abilities all being earned along the way, not just once in a while.

And that's the common ground we all had before Blizzcon 2017. I genuinely had a sense that no one really liked leveling for the function itself of leveling... they liked that it was trivial and over quickly, because in essence they didn't really want to do that activity itself... they wanted to try the latest content with a different class, faction, race, etc. For nearly everyone I conversed with on the forums, there was a consensus that leveling was largely a non-game chore, really only suitable as a Netflix companion.

The problem is that no one could agree on how it could be fixed. I honestly love 7.3.5's changes for what they are and how they dialed gameplay back into the game, but if someone asked me how I would've programmed it, the answer would've been "take it back to WotLK or further"... which I guarantee in the modern WoW space would've incited riots. I liked the feeling of danger leveling, the quests that required grouping or high levels of skill with your class, and a talent point system that put the ability to either succeed, or mess up your character royally in your own hands.

Furthermore, I'm honestly a bad judge of how long it should take to level, because I genuinely enjoy playing the game at any level if there is a game there to play... 2 shotting mobs that hit with wet noodles, and joining dungeons that require zero healing and tanking was an experience stripped of the feeling of "game", and felt like I was playing a mobile game's "press x to win" formula. I heirloom (edit: heritage*) leveled a void elf, and a draenei fully to 110 since 7.3.5, among others in various stages of the journey without heirlooms, just focusing on actually finishing zones and doing dungeons. It was nice to have gameplay available at every stage of the experience, instead of "you've spent more than an hour here... now everything is going to melt in your presence". I get that that's just my style, but I've always enjoyed WoW's core experience... not wondered how I could get by with playing it less and less.


Thanks for that reply, I appreciate it.

In my case, I also liked the Wotlk time for leveling. For me it's not about the danger, it's about the power progression. I knew as I leveled I got stronger and had a choice at tougher mobs. Now, everything just levels. The only power progression points are like 60, 90, and 100,and 110 now.
I don't post much but here is an idea for the leveling process keep the leveling the same for the first toon that you go through content with. then once that toon is max level they have the opportunity to buy the heirloom gear but not before. Once you have 2 or more chars at max level then have a guy like the exp nerf guy in either sw or org and pay gold to increase the amount of experience you get from leveling multiple toons to max level. ex having 2 toons give 110% exp gained or if you have 15 toons a 210% experience gain for those who want that type of leveling so that is not really too much of a headache when people like to level alts fast but you know how to play the game.
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.
Leveling now is a pure joke.

it feels like blizzard nerfed everything as a ploy to sell boosts

No options for people to boost friends to help them out or power level.

I want options, We should be able to level in BG's like before and dungeons, I loved being able to do battlegrounds on the weekends in Wotlk and being able to grind out levels with all the experience we got.

now I dont even want to step inside a BG or level an alt. The end-game is what matters so getting to max level is almost required now a days, theirs no reason to have a twink either
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


It was a monster mistake to revamp leveling in 7.3.5 knowing that a massive game wide stat squish was coming 8 months later.

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