Mob Scaling

General Discussion
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07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


I see that you are still standing by 7.3.5 but also acknowledge that the 60-80 bracket is wrong.

Is it fair to assume then, that you're going to fix what was wrong with 7.3.5? The 60-80 area wasn't the only issue WoD was way over-tuned as well. While it may not feel that way for certain classes it does for others. Why not error on the side of fun for the player?

Edit: The problem with 7.3.5 is that it effectively killed power progression in the game while leveling. If mobs get stronger as you do, you never really progress in anything other than level. Will somebody address this issue please?
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


Thank you for responding. We need more responses on these forums from you and the development team. It would go a long way to fixing a lot of resentment or the perception that no one is listening. We might not always agree with what you’re saying, but at least we know we’re heard.
07/26/2018 05:32 AMPosted by Markness
Blizzard releases a car that can now only drive 10 mph because they want you to enjoy your experience more on your way to work.

“Better than riding on a horse!” - WW1 vet


OMG hilarious-- and extremely fitting for this whole situation. :) I especially love the vet quote, ROFL.
snip


Great response, and thank you!

I, and many players, probably didn't think too much about killing mobs so fast, and now that I think about it, combat does feel a lot more rewarding when it take longer to kill things.

That being said, during your process of "smoothing" the leveling, please consider the xp given by quests in general and how long it takes to go from 1 to max. Increasing combat time is essentially increasing quest time which increases leveling time.

Furthermore, please consider a little more strength in heirlooms or players that have spent lots of time in the game in general. Reward your players that have put countless hours into this game!!! We have been through the leveling experience time and time again and, although I appreciate and respect it, I'm just flat out sick of it! Please consider adding more heirloom slots, increasing their xp bonus, or even giving some sort of bonus xp for each character that you have LEVELED to max.
SNIP


Good to see you guys are acknowledging that the 60-80 game is totally out of whack. I've leveled my hunter from 60-76 since 8.0 and honestly its almost made me want to quit this game and cancel my BFA CE Pre-Order at Gamestop.

Sorry Ion, but you guys really missed the boat on this leveling thing.

Just a question, have you guys ever considered doing a bonus for people who have multiple characters at max level. A good example is Everquest 2 where for each max level character you have you get an additive 20% EXP bonus to all future characters under the cap. So if you have 1 max level you get a 20% bonus. 2 you get 40. 3 60 and so on and so forth. It seems like this system is very well liked and enjoyed and would be a good compromise in the leveling situation.
07/26/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Sweetpeaz
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


I see that you are still standing by 7.3.5 but also acknowledge that the 60-80 bracket is wrong.

Is it fair to assume then, that you're going to fix what was wrong with 7.3.5? The 60-80 area wasn't the only issue WoD was way over-tuned as well. While it may not feel that way for certain classes it does for others. Why not error on the side of fun for the player?


Because whats fun for one player is not fun for everyone? I personally really enjoy what they did in 7.3.5 because it made leveling more interesting, it's not a mindless grind now. Heck it has even made doing hardcore runs a ton of fun because the difficulty is way up.
07/25/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Ythisens

You're right the curve was adjusted to be smoother and a little bit slower in 7.3.5, so in comparison that would feel amazing, however that change was one that some players actually do enjoy. While its not what you want, some players did like that. I personally think it's slower and preferred it before the 7.3.5 patch(cause I'm the kind of player that wants to level really fast and just have more alts) but I understand why it was changed and recognize there are players that do like that change. I thought it felt equally jarring that someone could go from 1-100 in a matter of a few hours. The 7.3.5 patch felt like a solid middle ground between how it was in Classic/The Burning Crusade and to how it was pre 7.3.5 at least to me.


The fact the team lowered experience per level many times over the years only to quickly revert it seems to be conflicting design.

The scaling alone should have been done independent of making more experience per level to see how that shook out first. Dungeon spamming to level has been taken down to where it feels far inferior to questing which it actually should be the opposite in principle since you're doing "harder" content with others.

The heirloom stat nerf can be somewhat understandable, the world scaling was absolutely a welcome change, but the experience nerf (in 7.3.5) to dungeons and more experience per level is reinjecting leveling as content and frankly it isn't that engaging when the process feels like a slog, nor can you actually get anything out of it other than story (which is only enjoyable once).

What has happened is that leveling has become a chore, so much so that I don't even think I want to level anything ever again from 1, 20, 55, even 98 ever again. I feel even more stuck on my server that either boosting or character transfers are my only reprieve and that is a bad look. It can lead to MANY people think it's to push sales of character services, not to make leveling an adventure again.
Maybe your internal data is also off that the gcd change is a good one. xD
07/26/2018 01:10 PMPosted by Mairey
Because whats fun for one player is not fun for everyone? I personally really enjoy what they did in 7.3.5 because it made leveling more interesting, it's not a mindless grind now. Heck it has even made doing hardcore runs a ton of fun because the difficulty is way up.


Well what 7.3.5 did was kill power progression in the leveling process.

So you can like it all you want, for me it feels like I'm on a treadmill of leveling where I never get any stronger relative to mobs.
I've ran into recent issues in healing MoP versus Cata dungeons on a healing alt I'm leveling, it feels that the scaling for the Cata dungeons isn't right in a sense, a guildmate of mine took significantly more damage in Ramhken from non boss adds, than he did in Jade Temple in MoP. The adds felt like they were hitting him for significantly more damage than what should be normal. Other issues have arisen such as in throne of tides as well as in some other Cata content where mobs heal for significantly more health, being full hp. This wouldn't be an issue if numerous interrupts weren't removed or changed to later levels, thus slowing the pace of leveling. Mobility issues on a blood dk while leveling at 60 are more noticeable prior to the prepatch. The removal of key wraith walk slows the pace and makes the 60-80 experience seem slower as well as a result.

The lack of interrupt on guardian druids until level 70 seems arbitrary, and as mentioned in earlier examples with some Cata dungeons, slows the pace of combat when there may be only one silence available at a time in rare occurrences, or due to lack of knowledge by newer players.
so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.


please don't go back to:
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off.
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

Thank you.

60 to 80 felt awful when I leveled for this heritage armor.
When we say slow leveling, we mean the experience gain and some mobs
07/26/2018 01:15 PMPosted by Preka
[quote]so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.


please don't go back to:
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off.


Why not?

Because you learn so much more by hitting the mob 8 times instead of 4?
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


Thank you. It's nice to see a blue post with actual information instead of simple platitudes. Perhaps after the leveling issue is fixed you can give some attention to all the specs that feel clunky and underpowered with skill changes post artifact repot? Windwalker monks feel vastly underpowered compared to where they were at before.
Leveling is too slow, it was already too slow in 7.3.5, baring the "unbearable" but I still managed to, painfully, level 2 allied races simply because I had the objective of getting their heritages, but as it stands it is something that I will never ever do ever again if it remains like it is right now.
Watcher just stated that this isn't intended, and its a breath of fresh air.
Since there is a small but noticeable part of the community that do want leveling to be like it is (see strawpoll I posted on another thread: https://www.strawpoll.me/16149368/r ) I would suggest buffing heirlooms to give double the bonus experience they currently do, make another ring-loom option available somewhere (nobody wants to go look for those in WOD since they take a very long grind to be found) - Since looms aren't a power-increase anymore, having them give more experience is ok because equipping them is optional.
Edit: Just to say, all of the mentioned ^ is in ADDITION to a big buff in the exp 60-80, the most painful zone.
I'd also suggest making the classic-world leveling scale 1-70 instead of 1-60.
07/26/2018 01:15 PMPosted by Preka
[quote]so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.


please don't go back to:
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off.


Why not? If you wanted a challenge leveling you had to option to not wear heirlooms. 7.3.5 making Heirlooms trash was just dumb, not EVERYONE want's a long grind to level up, some people want it over ASAP. Both going slow (no heirlooms) and going fast (heirlooms) was an option before 7.3.5, the only reason to crush heirlooms is to increase sales of boosts. That's it.
Hehe seems like Blizzard is following the example set by oil companies.

Ex

Oil companies raise the fuel prices by $0.10/L . Consumers complain. Oil companies then lower the price back to $0.04/L above the origional price. Consumers are happy because the price dropped.
In the end the company makes more money. The consumer is also less mad then if the price simply rose $0.04/L.

Switch out "fuel prices" with "time it takes to level" and you get the idea.
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.


This is part of the disconnect to let me ask this straight away, and I'm hoping you can give a straight answer.

The problem for me is the lack of power progression while leveling. As I level mobs don't get easier to kill, they get tougher.

You had said before that power progression is core to the game and that you didn't want to mess with it, but it's clear that isn't true.

So are you looking at ways to fix the lack of power progression or just looking for ways to fix the bad scaling? Because even in the other areas of the world you didn't mention, power progression is far too weak and at times it's a power regression.
07/26/2018 01:15 PMPosted by Preka
[quote]so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.


please don't go back to:
07/26/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Watcher
where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off.


agreed, and it wasn't killing speed in 7.3.5 that was the main issue - it was the changes to XP sources/amount needed/buffs (like RAF) that made leveling a pain for veterans who have seen the content a million and one times already and just want to play around with a new class/race combo to help keep the game new and interesting.

110 levels (120 soon) is too many to have a "smooth xp curve" on every alt you make - this is why an account wide XP buff (toggle-able) that grows for every max level character you have on your account is a must (probably set to something static, like number of level 100's, as an example, with classes that get a head start or extra buff (dk/monk/dh) only counting once.)

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