Affliction requires too much micro now

Warlock
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07/25/2018 10:26 AMPosted by Kigs
think you're misunderstanding Dz's point Izuni, he is saying that based on the percentage of the parses that each spec makes up Aff grew from NH release all the way until ABT while Demo/Destro leveled out. Which he is 100% correct on.


But they didn't actually "level out" the majority of them switched spec which is proven by the distribution of when affliction was considered weak(and worst gameplay during the xpac) and the other two strong(7.0-7.1). This case is further proved in 7.1.5 when the metric between the 3 specs majorly shifted(and this was well before affliction was dominating). Now compare that to say a mage and you would see they didnt have the same shift into 1 spec but maintained more total numbers then warlocks(more mages then locks) which tells you there that the boon aff got there was from people shifting specs.

[/quote]

Yooo I literally made a post showing the % shifts between all 3 Warlock specs and every other spec. 7.1.5 showed Warlocks moving within the spec but every patch after showed overall Lock numbers AND Aff numbers rise, Demo/Destro combined stay around 3 to 3.5%, and the other specs drop more than they have all expansion

Y u keep ignoring me bb
07/24/2018 11:28 PMPosted by Morlina
just came to say.... 0.0 . If you look up like icey veins there is a easy mode spec so you dont have to do all the crazy dot juggling.. and it does almost the same damage as the mini max one ....


Except it's not... Not even close.
The premise of my argument is that obvious AoE talents like Phantom Singularity shouldn't be forced on us for no reason. Blizzard took away our artifact ability for AoE for aff and !@#$tily implemented new talents to try to make up for it.

Grim of Sac / Shadow Embrace don't compete with haunt.

Sac can sometimes outdamage haunt in high level Mythic+ with multiple targets.
Its a dot spec. If haunt, SL, and PS are all the go to for single target, I will be overjoyed with that rotation. What am I going to do instead, spam shadowbolt?
07/25/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Dzdz
Yooo I literally made a post showing the % shifts between all 3 Warlock specs and every other spec. 7.1.5 showed Warlocks moving within the spec but every patch after showed overall Lock numbers AND Aff numbers rise, Demo/Destro combined stay around 3 to 3.5%, and the other specs drop more than they have all expansion

Y u keep ignoring me bb


I didn't, i just made a post with every class distribution as well as how much influx of afflock increases from outside the class as well as where they came from and why. The summery was the influx was very small still and it was mostly shadow priests who were bottom tier dps moving from 1 dot spec to another.
07/27/2018 12:38 AMPosted by Izuni
07/25/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Dzdz
Yooo I literally made a post showing the % shifts between all 3 Warlock specs and every other spec. 7.1.5 showed Warlocks moving within the spec but every patch after showed overall Lock numbers AND Aff numbers rise, Demo/Destro combined stay around 3 to 3.5%, and the other specs drop more than they have all expansion

Y u keep ignoring me bb


I didn't, i just made a post with every class distribution as well as how much influx of afflock increases from outside the class as well as where they came from and why. The summery was the influx was very small still and it was mostly shadow priests who were bottom tier dps moving from 1 dot spec to another.


but you didn't actually calculate how much they increased or decreased, you just compared them to your projections.. which are just projections. i used the real numbers, turned them into %s, and painted the picture pretty clearly. you don't need to make projections to show what happened. the numbers are there.

Shadow only went from making up 7% of the total parses in EN down to 5.1% by the time we got to Antorus. Warlocks as a whole went from 9.5% in EN to 15.5% in Antorus - Affliction being 12% of that number. it wasn't "mostly shadow priests" and when we're talking about hundreds of thousands of submitted parses, going from 9.5% to 15.5% of the overall representation isn't a "very small influx"


Emerald Nightmare
MM – 11%
Fire – 11%
Shadow 7.1%

Destro – 4%
Demo – 3.5%
BM – 3.5%
Affliction – 2%
Frost – 1.5%
Arcane – 1%

Three clear outliers, all three regarded as the strongest at the time. Shadow being the best but on an unpopular DPS class.

Hunters made up 14.5% of the total
Mages made up 13.5% of the total
Warlocks made up 9.5% of the total, with Aff being 2%

The rest made up 62.5%

Trial of Valor
Fire – 11%
MM – 10.5%
Shadow – 8%

Destro – 5%
Demo – 3%
BM – 1.8%
Aff – 1.6%
Frost – 1.3%
Arcane - .6%

Again, three clear outliers, all three regarded as the strongest at the time. Shadow being the best but on an unpopular DPS class.

Hunters made up 12.5% of the total
Mages made up 12.9% of the total
Warlocks made up 9.6% of the total, with Aff being 1.6%
The rest made up 65.2%

Nighthold 7.1.5 - this was the MG rework
Shadow – 7%
Fire – 6.5%
Aff – 6%
MM – 6%
BM – 6%
Frost – 4.5%
Demo – 2%
Destro – 1.7%
Arcane - 1.6%

No clear outliers at this time, and that was reflected in rankings. Ranged DPS were quite even - arguably the most even they were all expansion. (see https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/11#region=1 quickly for reference)

Mages made up 12.5% of the total
Hunters made up 12% of the total
Warlocks made up 9.5% of the total, with Aff being 6%
The rest made up 65.7%

this ACCURATELY represents Warlocks moving around from Demo/Destro to Affliction, like I said makes sense, and likely due to interest for the new build. Warlocks were hovering around 9.5% of the spread at every point of reference until this point and still are here.

But this is the good one;

Antorus
Affliction – 12%
BM – 6.5%
Frost – 6.5%
MM – 5.5%
Fire – 5.5%
Shadow – 5.5%
Destro – 2.5%
Arcane - 1%
Demo - 1%

One clear outlier representing 12% of the total, being Affliction.

Warlocks make up 15.5% of the total, the highest of any total thus far, with Affliction being 12% of that while Demo/Destro holding the same value as the patch before.
Hunters make up 12% of the total
Mages make up 12% of the total
AfFlIcTiOn ReQuIrEs ToO MuCh MiCrO NoW
07/26/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Gubstep
07/24/2018 11:28 PMPosted by Morlina
just came to say.... 0.0 . If you look up like icey veins there is a easy mode spec so you dont have to do all the crazy dot juggling.. and it does almost the same damage as the mini max one ....


Except it's not... Not even close.
The premise of my argument is that obvious AoE talents like Phantom Singularity shouldn't be forced on us for no reason. Blizzard took away our artifact ability for AoE for aff and !@#$tily implemented new talents to try to make up for it.

Grim of Sac / Shadow Embrace don't compete with haunt.

Sac can sometimes outdamage haunt in high level Mythic+ with multiple targets.
except its very close, close enough that if you arent good/ dont want to deal with juggling 5-6 dots you can switch to agony/sac . End of the day you will lose more dps trying to mirco management those dots during a learning fight than you would picking a easier spec. Yes on a target dummy haunt/SL will do at least 5 percent more damage but in a raid scenario I would rather have something easy so i can focus on the fight.
It’s not that bad.

Provided we are talking about the Deathbolt, Siphon Life and Phantom Singularity build, most of it is just keeping your dots up. At least they are all mostly instant cast spells. They’re not that hard to manage.

Start off by becoming proficient at refreshing SL, corruption and agony. Next, learn to refresh your dots and dump UAs when your Watcher Demon thing or Deathbolt is close to coming off CD in order to get the most out of those two abilities. It’s pretty easy to manage in a single target scenario.

Multi target scenarios can appear to be a bit daunting and there will likely be times where you won’t even have enough time to refresh all of your dots. You keep agony active on all targets, maintain corruption via seed and then apply whatever dots you can, working down the priority list.
07/28/2018 10:53 PMPosted by Vonnetta
Yes on a target dummy haunt/SL will do at least 5 percent more damage but in a raid scenario I would rather have something easy so i can focus on the fight.

Indeed. While there are some exceptionally talented players (almost certainly not posting here) who can do a lot of tedious needless minmaxing to get a bit of an increase... keeping it simple and keeping your uptime high, while doing mechanics properly, will serve you better for almost all content.

It's really rare for those people who parse very high to even be doing mechanics themselves. So often it's just padding off adds and having Mages/Hunters do mechanics for them.
It's amazing how hung up people got on specific legendaries and talents during Legion when, even when optimally played, the performance difference between them and other options which were safer/easier was extremely minimal.
07/21/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Izuni
07/21/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Mugoku
blizz be weeding out fotm players one at a time


FoTM players play w/e is strong regardless of its playstyle. This statement makes no sense. IF affliction was strong in BFA FoTM players would still flock to it.


actually... false

FOTM players do LOVE playing the high end number specs. The fact warlock is still fine number wise, its teh learning curve that FOTM players do not like. Example, MOP hunters. FOTM players flocked to that class due to the high numbers and easy play-ability. Aff in legion when the buff happend, many FOTM players went to it due to the numbers AND how easy it was to play.

Now that aff has been changed into a high micro-managable type spec, alot of fotm players are complaining because their easy mode spec is now " difficult " for them to manage

fotm players dont have the skill nor capability to try and learn the class. they want something simple, low risk high return type specs just to stroke off their meter epen

see the chart above on the shift of players
07/27/2018 04:33 PMPosted by Dzdz
but you didn't actually calculate how much they increased or decreased, you just compared them to your projections.. which are just projections.


Yes i did

i calculated both projected and actual increase and decrease. Projected increase is accounting for the increased total parses across every class. Showing the current percentages is irelevant if you are purely looking for fotm rerollers. You need to compare all classes to before. I mean according to your own data that is incomplete it completely proves my point:

your percentages are not accurate:

07/24/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Dzdz
Antorus
Affliction – 12%
BM – 6.5%
Frost – 6.5%
MM – 5.5%
Fire – 5.5%
Shadow – 5.5%
Destro – 2.5%
Arcane - 1%
Demo - 1%


Real percentages:

Affliction: 11.3%(was 6.2%, 4.1% gain) Unholy DK = 1.5%
Destro = 2% Frost DK = 4.6%
Demo = 0.4%

Marksmen = 5.3% Fury = 4.9%
Beast = 6.5% Arms = 2.1%
Surv = 0.1%

Frost: 6.4% Assassination = 8%
Fire: 5% Outlaw = .7%
Arcane: 0.8% Sub: .5%

Shadow: 4.9%(7.2% in NH) Feral: 2.3%
Elemental: 3.3% Enhance: 2.5%
Balance: 6.3% Windwalker: 5.5%

You can see as clear as day where Affliction got their boon from it was Shadow Priest and fotm rerollers however you can also see that fotm rerollers made a very small amount of the gain which was my point. of the 4.1% gain, 1% was from Demo, (assuming only half but likely more of the shadow priest who left went affliction) 1% from shadow, and 2.1% are the actual fotm rereollers. If you think thats a high percentage i dunno what else to tell you honestly.
07/29/2018 01:21 PMPosted by Mugoku
actually... false

FOTM players do LOVE playing the high end number specs. The fact warlock is still fine number wise, its teh learning curve that FOTM players do not like. Example, MOP hunters. FOTM players flocked to that class due to the high numbers and easy play-ability. Aff in legion when the buff happend, many FOTM players went to it due to the numbers AND how easy it was to play.

Now that aff has been changed into a high micro-managable type spec, alot of fotm players are complaining because their easy mode spec is now " difficult " for them to manage

fotm players dont have the skill nor capability to try and learn the class. they want something simple, low risk high return type specs just to stroke off their meter epen

see the chart above on the shift of players


So we are clear,

What i said "FoTM players play w/e is strong regardless of its playstyle. This statement makes no sense. IF affliction was strong in BFA FoTM players would still flock to it."

What you then replied with in your first sentence:

07/29/2018 01:21 PMPosted by Mugoku
FOTM players do LOVE playing the high end number specs


The rest of the things you said i did not even form an argument or debate about so how exactly is me saying fotm players play w/e is strong regardless false when you agreed with it.
I don't give a !@#$ about how difficult/challenging easy/boring it is. I'm all about fun/rewarding vs unrewarding. There is a difference. Legion Affliction did it right. It felt like they finally understood what an affliction warlock is. A caster that steals and drains life and soul from the enemy while destroying them with agony and corruption. It had a great balance of powerful dots, and a powerful drain spell (until they made the drain spell OP, obvi). I would have been happy if they kept DS but nerfed it. Now, DS is a shell of its former self and literally only there for nostalgia players. It's a waste talent tree space for those who need the big numbers to stay relevant in your raid group.

I had zero problems with mobility in Legion with portals/burning rush. If you had issues, you weren't playing right. DS was an awesome filler fit for affliction. Not just spec wise, but lore wise. You can even see Gul'dan using it multiple times in the movie. That's Affliction. Now we're reduced to spamming tiny purple sparklers when we have time to, and have a tiny window while managing 5 dots. Meanwhile we aren't getting literally *anything* out of it. No soul shards with adds. No life stealing. "But SL!". If there's a nifty animation for it, I haven't noticed it. I certainly haven't noticed my health meter change much, or the target's health meter change much with it. It's simply not rewarding anymore. "But DL!". Yeah let's throw that into a boss fight rotation and watch your numbers plummet...
07/29/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Izuni

You can see as clear as day where Affliction got their boon from it was Shadow Priest and fotm rerollers however you can also see that fotm rerollers made a very small amount of the gain which was my point. of the 4.1% gain, 1% was from Demo, (assuming only half but likely more of the shadow priest who left went affliction) 1% from shadow, and 2.1% are the actual fotm rereollers. If you think thats a high percentage i dunno what else to tell you honestly.


Except Shadow went up in representation from Nighthold to ToS and - that didn't prevent Affliction having a massive influx after 7.2 (i.e before Antorus) Demo/Destro did not have the amount of players to result in that much of a change. Hell, you could even see it in the increase in activity in these forums.

It was some Shadow priests but also some of a lot of specs. Combined, yes it was a big number of people rerolling to play one spec. You don't go from the lead Demon Hunter had on everyone at the start of Nighthold to the lead Affliction had by the end of Antorus without a !@#$load of players moving around from other specs. Not when we're talking Warlocks, which were up until this point a pretty underplayed spec compared to most.

but believe what you want. the numbers are pretty obvious. at no time has FOTM specs resulted in 50% of the playerbase shifting to one spec, so i'm not sure what exactly you'd need to see to concede the point that affliction easily pulled away the most players from each spec in the game post 7.2.
Except Shadow went up in representation from Nighthold to ToS and - that didn't prevent Affliction having a massive influx after 7.2. Demo/Destro did not have the amount of players to result in that much of a change.


Problem with using only ranking as a metric is that it doesn't account for the other specs they were ahead of shadow losing representation in favor of other specs which didnt happen to a number of specs in between raids tiers(especially melee). a better metric is looking at the total parses, finding the percentages of each spec representation and comparing with the percentages from the raid tier you wanted to which we did already.

The amount of people who legitimately fotm reroll is around 2%. People who reroll because their class/spec is weak is actually higher.

Another problem with using ranking is that its not telling you the numbers of the other specs. For example it is entire possible(actually happened with Affliciton) that the number 1 spec becomes lower when you stack class totals against other class:

Example, In Tomb while Affliction was number 1 spec, there were more Mages and Hunters then there were warlocks.

07/29/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Dzdz
but believe what you want. the numbers are pretty obvious. at no time has FOTM specs resulted in 50% of the playerbase shifting to one spec


You do not even have the numbers to support a 50% shift in the playerbase yet i have the numbers to support a 2.1%
07/29/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Izuni
Except Shadow went up in representation from Nighthold to ToS and - that didn't prevent Affliction having a massive influx after 7.2. Demo/Destro did not have the amount of players to result in that much of a change.


Problem with using only ranking as a metric is that it doesn't account for the other specs they were ahead of shadow losing representation in favor of other specs which didnt happen to a number of specs in between raids tiers(especially melee). a better metric is looking at the total parses, finding the percentages of each spec representation and comparing with the percentages from the raid tier you wanted to which we did already.

The amount of people who legitimately fotm reroll is around 2%.


That's how I calculated the like 5 tiers worth of percentages I did - but you don't need to calculate it for NH to ToS to see that Shadow Priests were not the ones that caused Affliction to spike going into ToS.

You also don't have to FOTM reroll because "your class is weak," (and like, Shadow was fine in ToS) people just wanted to play Affliction because it was the most complete spec with a simple to pick up rotation.

And like.. who tf doesn't know at least 3 people that started playing Aff at some point after Nighthold?

Yolo420blazeiti'mouttathisconvo
07/29/2018 05:19 PMPosted by Dzdz
That's how I calculated the like 5 tiers worth of percentages I did - but you don't need to calculate it for NH to ToS to see that Shadow Priests were not the ones that caused Affliction to spike going into ToS.


Yes what caused them to spike in tomb were the other 2 specs, said that a long time ago.

07/29/2018 05:19 PMPosted by Dzdz
And like.. who tf doesn't know at least 3 people that started playing Aff at some point after Nighthold?


Me, every afflock i raided with has been one since MoP but i do not use personal data because its unreliable.
07/29/2018 05:19 PMPosted by Dzdz
You also don't have to FOTM reroll because "your class is weak," (and like, Shadow was fine in ToS) people just wanted to play Affliction because it was the most complete spec with a simple to pick up rotation.


Pretty sure you are taking my word completely out of context in fact my whole arguement was never that FOTM rerollers didn't exists. My argument was the size of them.

I said some(key word is some) reroll because their class/spec is weak if you are arguing against me on that point then THATs what you are arguing against

I said the amount of FoTM rerollers are small(which they are).

I never said "no only FOTM rerolled to Affliction" nor did i ever say "only people with weak specs rerolled to Affliction" either nor did i imply it.
have an upvote. u are right. there were tens of thousands of Destro/Demo players alongside me early on in the expansion that all went to Affliction that made up the big influx of Affliction players.

jfc.
07/29/2018 04:44 PMPosted by Psylocke
I don't give a !@#$ about how difficult/challenging easy/boring it is. I'm all about fun/rewarding vs unrewarding. There is a difference. Legion Affliction did it right. It felt like they finally understood what an affliction warlock is. A caster that steals and drains life and soul from the enemy while destroying them with agony and corruption. It had a great balance of powerful dots, and a powerful drain spell (until they made the drain spell OP, obvi). I would have been happy if they kept DS but nerfed it. Now, DS is a shell of its former self and literally only there for nostalgia players. It's a waste talent tree space for those who need the big numbers to stay relevant in your raid group.

I had zero problems with mobility in Legion with portals/burning rush. If you had issues, you weren't playing right. DS was an awesome filler fit for affliction. Not just spec wise, but lore wise. You can even see Gul'dan using it multiple times in the movie. That's Affliction. Now we're reduced to spamming tiny purple sparklers when we have time to, and have a tiny window while managing 5 dots. Meanwhile we aren't getting literally *anything* out of it. No soul shards with adds. No life stealing. "But SL!". If there's a nifty animation for it, I haven't noticed it. I certainly haven't noticed my health meter change much, or the target's health meter change much with it. It's simply not rewarding anymore. "But DL!". Yeah let's throw that into a boss fight rotation and watch your numbers plummet...
I agree 100 percent, I hate this new version of affliction

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