Zero Alliance in Darkshore?

War Mode and World PvP
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It took ~20 minutes last night to do a single Darkshore World Quest as a solo Alliance mage. I was doing the one where you have to get 10x haunch of meat, and kill 8x horde invaders on the beach.

The entire beach was swimming in horde. As I was flying in, I saw a friendly paladin on the ground, bubbled with about 10 people on him. A rogue who was in the air dropped down to use the Net-o-matic on me, which was death #1.

Over the course of the next 20 minutes or so, I would rez, blow all my damage on a mob to ensure I get credit for at least one thing prior to dying to horde rogues, then rinse and repeat that process. Why can't I fly while dead in Darkshore?

The WQ weapon reward did not titanforge. It was a waste of time, and I turned off WoW for the night.

I have played on a PvP server since release, I was a strong advocate of Warmode being a thing, but my experience so far over the past few days on live has been an exercise in seeing how high my blood pressure can go. I'll still level in BfA with it on because there's almost no risk during the first few days, but if they can't fix the imbalance somehow, then I'll probably have to turn it off after 120 just for the sake of sanity. I won't be playing a rogue, so I can't invis to win.

I genuinely enjoy PvP. I enabled Warmode while on the beta and the skirmishes were great, but the population was so much smaller on beta. As Phalanx said, if the overwhelming majority of people who enable it are on one faction, it's just not going to work. I have no idea how they'd even begin to fix something like that short of what someone else suggested, which is to really jack up the rewards for people who are in an unfair shard, or give them Wintergrasp-style "I'm a raid boss!" buffs to help them fight off small armies.
I think they need to scale/increase the warmode benefits if you're on the faction with less players doing warmode, a way to encourage more people to sign up.
07/26/2018 08:48 AMPosted by Dabeard
It took ~20 minutes last night to do a single Darkshore World Quest as a solo Alliance mage. I was doing the one where you have to get 10x haunch of meat, and kill 8x horde invaders on the beach.

The entire beach was swimming in horde. As I was flying in, I saw a friendly paladin on the ground, bubbled with about 10 people on him. A rogue who was in the air dropped down to use the Net-o-matic on me, which was death #1.

Over the course of the next 20 minutes or so, I would rez, blow all my damage on a mob to ensure I get credit for at least one thing prior to dying to horde rogues, then rinse and repeat that process. Why can't I fly while dead in Darkshore?

The WQ weapon reward did not titanforge. It was a waste of time, and I turned off WoW for the night.

I have played on a PvP server since release, I was a strong advocate of Warmode being a thing, but my experience so far over the past few days on live has been an exercise in seeing how high my blood pressure can go. I'll still level in BfA with it on because there's almost no risk during the first few days, but if they can't fix the imbalance somehow, then I'll probably have to turn it off after 120 just for the sake of sanity. I won't be playing a rogue, so I can't invis to win.

I genuinely enjoy PvP. I enabled Warmode while on the beta and the skirmishes were great, but the population was so much smaller on beta. As Phalanx said, if the overwhelming majority of people who enable it are on one faction, it's just not going to work. I have no idea how they'd even begin to fix something like that short of what someone else suggested, which is to really jack up the rewards for people who are in an unfair shard, or give them Wintergrasp-style "I'm a raid boss!" buffs to help them fight off small armies.


they could just buff the rewards to xp/world quest rewards for one faction, encouraging them to turn warmode on. Some kind of knob they can turn.

a shorter term solution would just be to form groups.

Ive always hated the idea of buffing player power ala wintergrasp. It never feels fair to get into a 1v1 and lose just because somewhere in the zone there are more horde than alliance.
07/26/2018 09:08 AMPosted by Meingott
a shorter term solution would just be to form groups.

Ive always hated the idea of buffing player power ala wintergrasp. It never feels fair to get into a 1v1 and lose just because somewhere in the zone there are more horde than alliance.


Yes, the correct option is obviously to play with friends and roam around in groups, but it's also a ton of fun to take up arms with the other random dudes nearby to defend yourselves. I had this experience quite a bit on beta in warmode. Once there was a trio of level 120 MM hunter assassins and a Disc Priest terrorizing a quest hub, sitting on rooftops just gibbing people with broken abilities, and I fell back to the hills where I found a friendly Guardian druid and Disc priest. We went in, and with the help of the remaining stragglers at the hub, were able to kill the hunters and their pocket healer.

I think the above is what the fantasy of Warmode was all about, and in an environment like beta with a low and disorganized population, it works extremely well.

On live, it will be "figured out" rather quickly, and coupled with things like an extreme faction imbalance, will probably necessitate extreme measures to make sure Warmode doesn't simply become a horde-only reward mechanic.

Also, I probably just need to make more in-game friends.
Although scaling rewards, health, damage, xp %, etc. in some manner may be a potential solution, I don't think it's that straightforward or tangible.

With the "Wintergrasp" buff, everyone was in that zone for the same sole objective -- to win Wintergrasp, so for the most part this meant people were banding together in a singular fashion. With world questing and leveling up, everyone is going to be at different parts of the zone quests, and spread out at different areas of the zone.

So say, for example, if there is a 4:1 horde:alliance ratio, that Alliance gets a 15% buff. And if more alliance join and reduces the spread to a 2:1 ratio, the buff is only 5%. This still doesn't consider many factors. How many people are just AFK in town and artificially increasing the participation rate? How many people are enabling Warmode just hoping to sneak by with some extra rewards, and aren't really participating in PvP?

Someone mentioned disabling conquest or gains when in a raid group. I don't think that is a solution either, as some of the most fun happens when both factions get their own competing raid groups together to push back.

I know I'm really just stating what I don't think will work. I don't know what the solution is here. All I agree with is that there is a real issue with faction population imbalance. At this point, what is the difference between a max level character swooping in and 1-shotting a level 65 character, or 4-5 max level horde jumping on the only alliance character in the area?
What we are seeing are problems related to warmode being a toggle you can choose to engage or disable at will. As a result, people are starting to figure out that toggling only really makes sense if you are going to immediately jump into a massive Zerg through the groupfinder. It has created a really artificial sort of world pvp that lacks the spontaneity that those of us who came up on pvp servers miss from the game. Most world pvp back in the day consisted of random 1v1 or 1v2 encounters while you were out exploring or gathering mats. With warmode, you can opt out of that possibility at will and only ever expose yourself to world pvp when it is optimal. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly what is happening. Horde players are jumping into world pvp groups through groupfinder and stomping the handful of allies that have the sack for combat, which crushes the Alliance’s puny spirit and sends them back to stormwind to toggle off, tails between their legs (metaphorically, but also literally for the dogmen).

The system is bad and dumb. The easiest fix is probably a 24 hour cd on being able to toggle warmode. The best solution is probably to force you to choose whether to enable warmode for the week on your first login per reset. Either way, you shouldn’t be able to only engage in world pvp when it is advantageous for you to do so.
It's also possible that myself and any other alliance are imagining imbalance where none exists. If the system does truly maintain a 50/50 split in shards whenever possible and simply dumps the remaining horde in their own shard, then we're just spouting off anecdotal examples of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with Warmode largely working as intended.

Blizzard may be laughing at us right now, but are unwilling to actually explain how the system works. I get that transparency isn't always the best course of action.
There is no reason for Alliance to turn on War Mode. The Horde have always and will always win in PVP. So enjoy your free 10% XP or whatever and zero actual World PVP.
07/26/2018 10:11 AMPosted by Dabeard
It's also possible that myself and any other alliance are imagining imbalance where none exists. If the system does truly maintain a 50/50 split in shards whenever possible and simply dumps the remaining horde in their own shard, then we're just spouting off anecdotal examples of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with Warmode largely working as intended.

Blizzard may be laughing at us right now, but are unwilling to actually explain how the system works. I get that transparency isn't always the best course of action.


The problem is that the Horde do not want to be on the Horde only shards. So they use the group finder to jump onto the shards that actually have alliance. As a result, when those alliance players (who probably aren’t using group finder because they can find world pvp without it) run into the Horde, they are running into a 40 man raid group. The alliance players get destroyed, spirit rez, hearth back to stormwind, turn off warmode, and then complain about how their racials are so weak that they can’t possibly compete in pvp. The system blizz has given us is TERRIBLE.
07/26/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Terôn
The alliance players get destroyed, spirit rez, hearth back to stormwind, turn off warmode, and then complain about how their racials are so weak that they can’t possibly compete in pvp.

Last I checked, people were complaining about there being a huge population imbalance every time they've gone to darkshore, because the horde just bury anyone who tries to pvp in bodies.
07/26/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Arctos
07/26/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Terôn
The alliance players get destroyed, spirit rez, hearth back to stormwind, turn off warmode, and then complain about how their racials are so weak that they can’t possibly compete in pvp.

Last I checked, people were complaining about there being a huge population imbalance every time they've gone to darkshore, because the horde just bury anyone who tries to pvp in bodies.


Scroll up to the tired old “our racials are so weak, that’s why we don’t pvp” talk.
07/26/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Terôn
Scroll up to the tired old “our racials are so weak, that’s why we don’t pvp” talk.


Well, this absolutely has a part to play in the underlying issue of more horde enabling Warmode.

The type of person who is still into WoW PvP is probably someone who has been playing for a long time, and most of those switched to horde several expansions ago.

I swapped to Horde back in Cata for purposes of PvP, but I just happen to reroll to Sargeras Alliance to play with friends at the very end of MoP, then I built up a massive fortune and army of Alliance alts during WoD. I'm committed to Alliance at this point if for no other reason than I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars or many many millions of gold moving everything over to Horde.
Last night I was doing The WQ in Darkshore on both Alliance and Horde. The Horde char is a new boosted char, so I don't feel as comfortable in PvP with him, so I had War Mode off, and you know what I saw? Tons of Alliance, way more Alliance than Horde. Don't blame Blizzard, blame yourselves. Then playing on Alliance, I saw there was a Horde raid group on the beach, so I joined another raid group and had a real good time for a few hours just mobbing and destroying Horde. Even got assassin a few times. I'm not super great at PvP, but I was having a lot of fun, until it got too crowded and the lag got nuts.
Maybe it's been mentioned, but it would be cool if Blizz could prioritize putting large raids of people into these overflow zones, and leave the small groups and solo players in the more populous ones.

A big complaint from people is getting zerged by groups of 10-20, and I have no doubt it will only get worse as people don't need the quests anymore.

Or like, even cap how many people can BE in a group in these zones.
07/26/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Dabeard
07/26/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Terôn
Scroll up to the tired old “our racials are so weak, that’s why we don’t pvp” talk.


Well, this absolutely has a part to play in the underlying issue of more horde enabling Warmode.

The type of person who is still into WoW PvP is probably someone who has been playing for a long time, and most of those switched to horde several expansions ago.


For people that are 2200+ and are talking about high level arena/rbg play, this holds some water. Everyone else needs to L2P/git gud. The relative difference in power between any two races’ 2 min cd has virtually no impact on the average pvp interaction when compared with the average differences in gear or skill in any given world pvp interaction. Racial imbalances are the constant scapegoat of the Alliance and they are absolutely nonsense. Even if I agree that racials are imbalanced (tbh I don’t know or care what the current alliance racials even are), that is not the reason current alliance players are not toggling warmode on. Alliance players are running around in carebear mode because they are a faction full of carebears. The few alliance players who actually possess the stones needed to engage in world pvp are getting overwhelmed and want to point to anything but the obvious lack of a masculine fighting spirit in their compatriots to explain why the alliance playerbase shuns confrontation.

The above is especially true in world pvp, where fairness and balance mean virtually nothing. There is no fair way to take on 3 enemy players at once, and no matter what racial CD you have, you are going to get pasted in a 3v1. World pvp is not the same as pvp in areana or battlegrounds. World pvp is not about fair fights. It is about salt. Sometimes you are mining the salt and sometimes you’re the salt getting mined. Getting shat on makes it all the sweeter when you get to be the one doing the griefing somewhere down the line. The constant threat of getting ganked and corpse camped creates a tension and adrenaline rush. It makes a relatively toothless pve world suddenly interesting. The on-demand warmode toggle and the accompanying behavioral challenges it has created in the playerbase is completely counter to what makes world pvp great.
I don't think anyone is blaming their individual fight results on Racials. They're blaming racials for the fact that most of the PvP-centric community plays Horde, and they're probably not wrong.

I'm not good with dates, but I remember a time where you could find maybe 10 Alliance in the top 500 characters on the 3v3 leaderboard in NA. Interestingly, EU was almost the opposite, but that didn't matter. The perception was that if you wanted to be a PvP hero on NA, you went Horde. Many/most did. Alliance never recovered.
07/26/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Rasks
Maybe it's been mentioned, but it would be cool if Blizz could prioritize putting large raids of people into these overflow zones, and leave the small groups and solo players in the more populous ones.

A big complaint from people is getting zerged by groups of 10-20, and I have no doubt it will only get worse as people don't need the quests anymore.

Or like, even cap how many people can BE in a group in these zones.


Or limit the groupfinder to players in carebear mode so that we don’t have the current problem of using grouping to shard hop to manipulate pvp encounters.
07/25/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Azcension
It would be easy to balance, just give the side with less players a % heal/damage buff. So say there's 100 horde players and 50 alliance players, each alliance player gets a 50% buff. 25 more alliance show up, buff drops to 25% buff, etc etc.


I remember when Wintergrasp had that buff. Simply put, it doesn't work. In your example, 50% more life means nothing against +100% incoming damage and CC lockdowns.
07/26/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Dabeard
I don't think anyone is blaming their individual fight results on Racials. They're blaming racials for the fact that most of the PvP-centric community plays Horde, and they're probably not wrong.

I'm not good with dates, but I remember a time where you could find maybe 10 Alliance in the top 500 characters on the 3v3 leaderboard in NA. Interestingly, EU was almost the opposite, but that didn't matter. The perception was that if you wanted to be a PvP hero on NA, you went Horde. Many/most did. Alliance never recovered.


This may explain why arena ladders are dominated by the Horde (are they? I have no idea). It does not explain why alliance players are refusing to engage with world pvp. World pvp is not a structured environment where min-maxing matters. World pvp is inherently unbalanced. You don’t have to have optimum racials to be a monster in world pvp.

The balance between alliance and horde players generally is 50/50. You say that the majority of pvpers are horde. The other side of that coin is that the majority of alliance players are carebears. Those carebears complain about their racials in an attempt to explain why their faction refuses to toggle warmode on. It’s nonsense. The alliance is the carebear coward faction. Not all alliance players are carebear cowards, but the bulk of them are.

Being a “pvper” is no longer set in stone. You can toggle whether you want to be a pvper on or off. You just accept that the majority of the playerbase in your faction are non-pvpers as if that is some sort of immutable characteristic. It isn’t. They’re just cowards. They can stop being cowards and flag, but they won’t.
07/26/2018 11:41 AMPosted by Terôn
07/26/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Dabeard
I don't think anyone is blaming their individual fight results on Racials. They're blaming racials for the fact that most of the PvP-centric community plays Horde, and they're probably not wrong.

I'm not good with dates, but I remember a time where you could find maybe 10 Alliance in the top 500 characters on the 3v3 leaderboard in NA. Interestingly, EU was almost the opposite, but that didn't matter. The perception was that if you wanted to be a PvP hero on NA, you went Horde. Many/most did. Alliance never recovered.


This may explain why arena ladders are dominated by the Horde (are they? I have no idea). It does not explain why alliance players are refusing to engage with world pvp. World pvp is not a structured environment where min-maxing matters. World pvp is inherently unbalanced. You don’t have to have optimum racials to be a monster in world pvp.

The balance between alliance and horde players generally is 50/50. You say that the majority of pvpers are horde. The other side of that coin is that the majority of alliance players are carebears. Those carebears complain about their racials in an attempt to explain why their faction refuses to toggle warmode on. It’s nonsense. The alliance is the carebear coward faction. Not all alliance players are carebear cowards, but the bulk of them are.

Being a “pvper” is no longer set in stone. You can toggle whether you want to be a pvper on or off. You just accept that the majority of the playerbase in your faction are non-pvpers as if that is some sort of immutable characteristic. It isn’t. They’re just cowards. They can stop being cowards and flag, but they won’t.


Cowards? Really? LOL

Just for !@#$s and giggles, I turned War Mode on and went to darkshore. As I expected it was flooded with horde. I managed to get two kills through sheer luck, but each time I died I had at least 8 horde on me. I split and turned War Mode back off and I'll keep it off.

What you call cowardice, I call common sense. There's no point in trying to fight when you have a mob of horde jump you, CC you and kill you in seconds. Shifting to bear did nothing but let me survive for another half second or so.

So enjoy War Mode, hordies. You can have it all to yourselves.

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