Complaints are feedback, quit !@#$%ing

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07/24/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Xathsmash
07/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Ythisens
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I'm quoting this because it's a good reply and I couldn't have said it better.


No it's actually not.

Leveling does suck it's 3 times slower than it was pre 7.3.5

The GCD changes do suck they make classes feel glacially slow and we had multiple threads on the front of alpha begging you to revert it before you wiped forums. They were calm and reasoned and you went ahead and implemented it anyway.

The solution is to stop fixing things that aren't broken. Stop taking away choice. Stop stomping on the game designers who made us fall in love with this game and frankly in my opinion are far better than the current team. Stop crying about players wanting flight due to connivence of it. Stop crying that players don't want your 50 plus hours of leveling content that we have done before many of us see leveling as a gate to the content that used to be fun. You have even made that content not fun by completely borking rotations which will feel even worse with the low haste we are going to have in two weeks.

Stop selectively quoting white knight posts and actually address issues instead of sweeping them under the rug. Just stop.

Didn’t have any issues leveling to 80 since prepatch dropped. Don’t even notice GCD changes tbh. Sounds like a player issue to me
Unfortunately I didn't know leveling up allied races was going to start giving achievement points so when I noticed this after prepatch I started leveling those races. The timing felt like a gut punch watching videos of people leveling so fast just a week earlier and now I'm stuck with no real alternatives to questing. Vanilla dungeons are very very slow and I'm a top player doing loads of damage comparatively but bosses are still taking 5 minutes or so to die. I didn't do one Vanilla leveling dungeon that felt like a good use of time.

Battlegrounds are the hidden gem of leveling but unfortunately for whatever reason this week they just aren't popping. An average bg takes 10 to 15 min and if you win rewards almost a whole level. The part I strongly disagree with is if you lose you get like 5 to 10 percent of a level. Making it far too frustrating when you lose.
Has more value than you think. A beeping red light is an indicator regardless of what it truly represents. The forms act just in that same manner.
07/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Ythisens
07/24/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Kozz
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Complaining isnt feedback. Feedback is constructive and calm. For instance. instead of a post like this:

Leveling now sucks!! i'ts too !@#$ing slow if I don't see a change I'm NOT COMING BACK BLIZZZARD WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH RAAAAWWRRR" <---This is a useless tantrum

Try to do something like this:

"I don't like the current form of leveling. I think it's too slow and does not appropriately reward my time and effort. For instance, dungeon xp is too low currently and the daily bonus does not correlate with the effort put into the harder dungeon content, I think that a good solution to this would be to increase the dungeon bonus by 2x to make the content feel worthwhile" <----Feedback expresses a problem calmly, actually pinpoints the issue, and then offers a possible solution.

So I do understand your concern OP, but you're wrong. Feedback isnt just a complaint in the form of a tantrum, it's a calm complaint that is explicitly identified and then offered a solution.


I'm quoting this because it's a good reply and I couldn't have said it better.


Yes, please make your feedback different so we can continue to ignore it.
07/24/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Crunkmonk
07/24/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Invadiah
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You act like you have concrete numbers. Blizzard is the only ones that have concrete numbers for anything. They have reasoning for what they do. Also Vocal Minority < Silent Majority. Just because people are not running around praising something left and right, doesn't mean they don't like it.


Theres a reason they dont publish it anymore.


You are being obtuse. You know that I was not talking about subscriber numbers, but internal metrics and heatmaps. They can tell how long leveling takes on average, and they can tell how much combat has changed without a person pointing it out.

Honestly, it sounds like this isn't the game for you. Show me a game where the developers cater to every whiny thread on their forums? Developers are in their position for a reason. The armchair developers that feel like they know all and can do it much better...well none of them have published a game.
07/24/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Multke
07/24/2018 04:35 AMPosted by Psyløck
Like it or not every single one of those qq posts are from paying customers that have every bit as much right to expressing themselves on these boards as you do. They also have a right to give feedback in the form complaints as much as that $$/month allows them to.

Guess what, if the majority of the feedback is complaints about leveling being too slow well it means somethings wrong with it even if you the very obnoxious- er I mean vocal forum elitist minority don't like it.


And other paying customers have the right to dumpster your whining and call you out on your crap.


My question is: What do YOU seek to gain out of it? For it to remain the same? What other reasons can there be? Trolling?
07/24/2018 12:07 PMPosted by Illidonkey
Don’t even notice GCD changes tbh. Sounds like a player issue to me


Oh, just wait. You will notice it.
07/24/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Ythisens
07/24/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Blincc
I like the changes and think the game is moving in a great direction. Change is hard for people to handle; tears are usually the result.


I heard a quote once from a podcast that I religiously have listened to for years now where one of the hosts once said "Humans demand progress, but hate change". It's always stuck to me and its very true and can be applied to really anything.


Change is hard for everyone because you have to adapt. As a species we find it hard in general but we do our best and soldier on.

When blizzard asks us for feedback and how to make things work - we do, and its ignored.

So how should we go forward? Keep paying and keep adapting to our obviously discarded opinions?
07/24/2018 12:07 PMPosted by Illidonkey
07/24/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Xathsmash
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No it's actually not.

Leveling does suck it's 3 times slower than it was pre 7.3.5

The GCD changes do suck they make classes feel glacially slow and we had multiple threads on the front of alpha begging you to revert it before you wiped forums. They were calm and reasoned and you went ahead and implemented it anyway.

The solution is to stop fixing things that aren't broken. Stop taking away choice. Stop stomping on the game designers who made us fall in love with this game and frankly in my opinion are far better than the current team. Stop crying about players wanting flight due to connivence of it. Stop crying that players don't want your 50 plus hours of leveling content that we have done before many of us see leveling as a gate to the content that used to be fun. You have even made that content not fun by completely borking rotations which will feel even worse with the low haste we are going to have in two weeks.

Stop selectively quoting white knight posts and actually address issues instead of sweeping them under the rug. Just stop.

Didn’t have any issues leveling to 80 since prepatch dropped. Don’t even notice GCD changes tbh. Sounds like a player issue to me


I agree, didn't even know the GCD was changed and I enjoyed leveling this character and I'm leveling 3 more.
07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Jovix
Does it matter, though? There have literally been thousands of posts, many well constructed and thought out, about how the leveling changes make the process feel worse and not better. Yet not much has come of it. Lets not pretend that the way the complaint is presented has any real bearing on whether or not it will be listened to.


I’d be willing to bet there are just as many who feel the opposite. I liked leveling in 7.3.5. It may have been messed up a little with the stat squish but I believe that was stated to be unintentional and will be fixed.

Feedback will be listened to but not necessarily acted on. Could you imagine what would happen if they acted on every piece of feedback they received?

07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Crunkmonk
07/24/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Ythisens
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I heard a quote once from a podcast that I religiously have listened to for years now where one of the hosts once said "Humans demand progress, but hate change". It's always stuck to me and its very true and can be applied to really anything.

[/quote]

You cant make everyone happy but the numbers dont lie.


What numbers?
07/24/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Invadiah
07/24/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Crunkmonk
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Theres a reason they dont publish it anymore.


You are being obtuse. You know that I was not talking about subscriber numbers, but internal metrics and heatmaps. They can tell how long leveling takes on average, and they can tell how much combat has changed without a person pointing it out.

Honestly, it sounds like this isn't the game for you. Show me a game where the developers cater to every whiny thread on their forums? Developers are in their position for a reason. The armchair developers that feel like they know all and can do it much better...well none of them have published a game.


Is it the game for anyone? No one can tell another to stop saying they dont like something.
The fan boys like yourself will only get in the way in the end. What value do you bring? You rush to defend something that people dont like. Do you really enjoy the current state of the game? If so good for you continue on and enjoy your time. For people like myself im tired of the lack luster content of this game.
I pay for this steaming kodo turd and I intend to voice my displeasure.
07/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Ythisens
07/24/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Kozz
...

Complaining isnt feedback. Feedback is constructive and calm. For instance. instead of a post like this:

Leveling now sucks!! i'ts too !@#$ing slow if I don't see a change I'm NOT COMING BACK BLIZZZARD WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH RAAAAWWRRR" <---This is a useless tantrum

Try to do something like this:

"I don't like the current form of leveling. I think it's too slow and does not appropriately reward my time and effort. For instance, dungeon xp is too low currently and the daily bonus does not correlate with the effort put into the harder dungeon content, I think that a good solution to this would be to increase the dungeon bonus by 2x to make the content feel worthwhile" <----Feedback expresses a problem calmly, actually pinpoints the issue, and then offers a possible solution.

So I do understand your concern OP, but you're wrong. Feedback isnt just a complaint in the form of a tantrum, it's a calm complaint that is explicitly identified and then offered a solution.


I'm quoting this because it's a good reply and I couldn't have said it better.

That post offers a potential solution, but IIRC, Blizzard has specifically stated they don't want you to offer solutions. They just want specifics on what the problem is.

While it is nice, in that example, to point how how dungeon exp is too slow, it makes it appear that other exp is fine. Where, exp across the board is too slow. Even in his write up he says "for instance", which implies there are more things that he hasn't specified. So, I'm failing to see how it's better to say,

"Exp is too slow, here is 1 example of many, but I won't tell you the others. Also here is my personal solution that's based out of thin air without proper testing" vs

"Exp is too slow"
Feedback will be listened to but not necessarily acted on. Could you imagine what would happen if they acted on every piece of feedback they received?


The game would explode because if you asked 10 people a question, you'd somehow manage to get 15 different answers.
07/24/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Xathsmash
Leveling does suck it's 3 times slower than it was pre 7.3.5


It helps a ton not to over exaggerate. Its borderline lying that hurts credibility of the point you are trying to make.

Also to people, don't use figuratives and call it "literal"
07/24/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Crunkmonk
Its not our job to write long retorts as to why something sucks. We can just simply voice it sucks.
And you can also just be simply dismissed as a childish malcontent throwing a temper tantrum.

07/24/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Candlevoid
When you're flipping burgers and you screw up their order, if they throw that food in your face while complaining, it may not be constructive but it is still feedback.
No, that's not feedback. That's assault.

07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Alberric
Even if we brought up the data and statistics now that leveling became slower, certain greens and other sorts of shills would shift the goalposts and up the bar needed for evidence.
No, you don't have the data and statistics. You have an anecdote.

Blizzard actually DOES have access to all the data. How do you think they were able to make the infographic a while back and know exactly how many nuts had been cracked in the "Aww Nuts!" world quest? Or that, going into WoD, the Heavenly Onyx Cloud Serpent was the rarest mount. Or that on average every day 900,000 PvE instances and 670,000 PvP instances were run?

They know how fast it takes us to level. They record boat loads of data.

07/24/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Lavanana
When blizzard asks us for feedback and how to make things work - we do, and its ignored.
Just because they don't implement your feedback does not mean it is ignored. If enough people mention it, they may internally discuss it from which point they can a) implement it, b) table it for later, or c) decide to keep the current course.
07/24/2018 12:07 PMPosted by Happysmiles
Battlegrounds are the hidden gem of leveling but unfortunately for whatever reason this week they just aren't popping. An average bg takes 10 to 15 min and if you win rewards almost a whole level. The part I strongly disagree with is if you lose you get like 5 to 10 percent of a level. Making it far too frustrating when you lose.


There were some posts on the BG forums saying this is related to the new honor system. Your honor level somehow dictates matchmaking on alts (could be a bug)... I don't entirely understand it but that's what is affecting your que times I believe.
07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Jovix
Does it matter, though? There have literally been thousands of posts, many well constructed and thought out, about how the leveling changes make the process feel worse and not better. Yet not much has come of it. Lets not pretend that the way the complaint is presented has any real bearing on whether or not it will be listened to.


It's not slower at all, it's awesome being able to fully experience a zone without out-leveling the quests and rushing to the next area you'll never fully actualize. Come on man, this isn't a bad change at all. Sure, you can't omgosh own everything at once anymore, but if you REALLY want to blast through mobs, bring a few friends and you'll fly fast enough.
07/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Ythisens
07/24/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Kozz
...

Complaining isnt feedback. Feedback is constructive and calm. For instance. instead of a post like this:

Leveling now sucks!! i'ts too !@#$ing slow if I don't see a change I'm NOT COMING BACK BLIZZZARD WHY DO YOU SUCK SO MUCH RAAAAWWRRR" <---This is a useless tantrum

Try to do something like this:

"I don't like the current form of leveling. I think it's too slow and does not appropriately reward my time and effort. For instance, dungeon xp is too low currently and the daily bonus does not correlate with the effort put into the harder dungeon content, I think that a good solution to this would be to increase the dungeon bonus by 2x to make the content feel worthwhile" <----Feedback expresses a problem calmly, actually pinpoints the issue, and then offers a possible solution.

So I do understand your concern OP, but you're wrong. Feedback isnt just a complaint in the form of a tantrum, it's a calm complaint that is explicitly identified and then offered a solution.


I'm quoting this because it's a good reply and I couldn't have said it better.


With respect, I disagree.

Consider that there is a reason underlying a complaint. While I have no doubt there are trolls here that simply enjoy poking the hornets nest, I would say most of the "sky is falling" posts have both an emotion associated with it, and a measure of merit.

Change is of course inevitable, but people put a massive investment of time and money into their characters. They know, because there is historic precedent for this, that there is a non-zero chance their beloved class and spec will undergo changes that will make them unplayable to that player. It is the nature of a game like this - it is impossible to make everyone happy, particularly when you have to make hard decisions for "the long-term health of the game."

So please be aware that the emotion behind a lot of these posts is not only understandable, but has some credence.

People complain because many of them feel it's the only outlet for their frustration. Complaints show these people care about the state of the game and the character they've come to love playing - and ultimately, their real desire is to continue to love playing their character.
07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Jovix
Does it matter, though? There have literally been thousands of posts, many well constructed and thought out, about how the leveling changes make the process feel worse and not better. Yet not much has come of it. Lets not pretend that the way the complaint is presented has any real bearing on whether or not it will be listened to.


I’d be willing to bet there are just as many who feel the opposite. I liked leveling in 7.3.5. It may have been messed up a little with the stat squish but I believe that was stated to be unintentional and will be fixed.

Feedback will be listened to but not necessarily acted on. Could you imagine what would happen if they acted on every piece of feedback they received?

07/24/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Crunkmonk
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You cant make everyone happy but the numbers dont lie.


What numbers?[/quote]

Paying Subs/Subs

Its the lack there of which wordlessly points to failure. If a products good, like it used to be they would advertise with it and what not. Now they dont. They hide it for a reason and will continue to do so.
07/24/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Ythisens
07/24/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Blincc
I like the changes and think the game is moving in a great direction. Change is hard for people to handle; tears are usually the result.


I heard a quote once from a podcast that I religiously have listened to for years now where one of the hosts once said "Humans demand progress, but hate change". It's always stuck to me and its very true and can be applied to really anything.


But change for the sake of change isn't always progress. In many ways what is going on in WoW and what will go on further as we level is a clear sign of that. People have said Azerite gear and progression is boring. Yet it still happened.

We are being allowed to benefit from our Legendary items till 116 not out of any kindness but to lesson the blow of the transition from how much our characters actually lost from the end of Legion. As if Azerite traits by this point will cover that loss. For some classes and specs they might help soften the blow.

Still it is change without real progression. It is more like substitution for what we already had. That isn't cool or fun. Would have been better off with a 120 talent row or a 4th spec for some class. Something original and fun to look forward to.

Told you in the Beta it was boring....

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