Feedback: Epic Battlegrounds

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07/27/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Digerati
I think I'm like 0-15 on Alliance epic BGs since the changes to kill the zerg strats (which Alliance were winning all the time beforehand). Would be cool if the Mercenary NPC was always up. Think the 50% Enlistment Bonus is gone too (should it come back?). Getting into AVs with 20 Alliance at the start, and they just lose the turtle.

Going to be transferring a toon to Horde soon, so its not a big deal since Honor is account wide now, but would be nice to have the option to queue whichever side

One of the IOCs last night was an hour long, and seeing the vehicles just hanging out in the middle was cool (except for the losing part), but I do wish there was more back and forth instead of people trying for 5 minutes and then slowly giving up or trying to feed them kills to end it more quickly. There's not enough back and forth right now, and it'd be cool if there were some sort of item drops and buffs. I'm not sure going full Mario Kart is the right option either (being behind = more buffs/better items). Overall it might just be that there's more serious PVPing horde right now in BGs, but yeah, haven't won yet. Will try it out next week from Horde side. I know you guys have the internal data on this sort of thing already, but I just wanted to a leave a note that they should be closely monitored.

Disclaimer: I'm not the biggest PVPer around. Mostly just grinding from 155 to 175 honor level for the Glorious Pennant, which looks really cool. I also appreciate the added focus on Epic BGs, because the large scale action does appeal to a lot of players, myself included. Less serious, more social. Splitting it off into its own queue was a great idea, as is the opt-in war mode system as a whole.


Update on this, still haven't won anything really. Horde friend said he won 21 of 22 this week. After giving it some more thought, I think it's because Horde resses/stays together more in the new turtle format. You completely ignore the captains now, so Iceblood is primed to take the SHB with it being closer. Horde also make a beeline on the right side of the map from Iceblood to SHB, staying together as a group, whereas Alliance spread all out in the Field of Strife.

Time will tell if this changes, but Horde have always stayed clustered on that one side of the map from Iceblood and Alliance done whatever for years, and it's much better for the turtle. Maybe they'll adapt. Alliance had the advantage with the layout of Dun Baldar beforehand, but now that isn't in play anymore. Just the middle of the map.

One thing you could maybe do would be making the captains much more killable by a 3-5 man group once the initial group has been wiped, so you can sneak back and get it done

Another would be tweaking graveyard timers to be shorter so theyre more ninjable, which might solve the Iceblood problem, but I still don't think they'd be going for end bosses even if pushed back. Could say the same about Towers but that'd be going too far. GYs seem like a subtle approach but I think it's the best way to make these battles more back and forth

So in order of what might help from most to least

1) Minor GY timer tweaks
2a) Making Snowfall GY more desirable by also granting a reinforcement like the mines do (really minor but snowfall is seen as a joke and bad diversion since its out of the way)
2b) Significant Captain Health/Dmg Tweaks (maybe just Dmg, keep him more of a beefy target dummy so a tank isn't needed)
3) Tower timers (only certain classes can do this so meh. Hurts the epic battles than helps)

IOC has been more even. Still losing most but Alliance just needs to see the importance of the Workshop. Maybe vehicles could respawn a little less fast. All they do is sit in the middle out of cannon range as people run into them and die.

I think game times are exactly where we want them
rewards from epic bg's need to be bigger imo, spending 1 hour in bg only to get what feels like a leftovers feels really unrewarding for me, winning team should get more sure, but currently it's just not worth it
Glaive Throwers die faster then you can find the rogue attacking them. Even then if you find the rogue, his bleeds will kill them anyway.
There needs to be a way to ignore quest shares in epic battlegrounds. People spam it.
Some random feedback before jumping back into some more battlegrounds...

ALTERAC VALLEY

ITEM #1 - The raid bosses need SERIOUS buffs (Ice Lord / Ivus)

These two NEED to be buffed significantly, both in terms of their damage output and health pool. My reasoning is as follows: these raid bosses take considerable team effort and team coordination in order to summon, so they need to be "worth it". They also encourage teamwork and communication between the players, and so the reward for all that work should be a PROPER raid boss.

In my opinion these bosses should be "a force to be reckoned with" with similar damage output to say, Galv or Balinda. In their current state they do like no damage and their health pool is not much more than an Argus rare elite... simply unacceptable versus a 40-player enemy team. It's almost a joke how low their damage output is, even the little graveyard flag "guards" hit harder than them. I guess what I'm saying is, these raid bosses should be able to "hold their own" without "needing" an escort of 10-15 players from your team constantly following them around.

ITEM #2 - Please REMOVE the archaic / out-dated 10-minute "idle timer"!!

The raid bosses still have an archaic, out-dated 10-minute "idle timer" mechanic that keeps them standing around in the Field of Strife doing absolutely nothing. This mechanic NEEDS to be removed in my opinion, to account for faster AV matches in modern times. I've summoned Ice Lord so many times and the players are all jubilant and excited in the chat... only for that excitement to turn to disappointment as the Ice Lord just stands around in the middle due to his "idle timer" invisible leash.

My fellow players in the chat will then start saying stuff like "is that it??", "what does it do?", "it's not doing anything...", "why is he just standing there?", "so much for the Ice Lord, LOL". etc etc. The "idle timer" is just a real killjoy and seems rather out of place in the year 2018, I wager that many more EPIC matches would ensue if these two raid bosses started "moving out" to the front lines right away.

ITEM #3 - The looting of enemy player corpses

This needs to be hot-fixed back to the way it was before prepatch. Before patch 8.0 when an enemy player died you would simply right click their dead body and you would auto-loot everything right then and there. After patch 8.0 you need to click twice (bug?); once to loot their insignia and then once again to actually loot the items off the body. Having to only click once is just a nice quality-of-life thing for the player, especially when there is a large group battle in progress all around you - seconds count in the heat of battle.

ISLE OF CONQUEST

ITEM #1 - Games dragging on for like 2 hours due to abuse of "base turtle" strategy

I don't know what the devs can do about this issue, but it is super annoying when a "turtle game" breaks out in Isle of Conquest and the match drags on in excess of 90+ minutes. The problem is that if one team decides to "turtle up" their base and keep 30+ players inside their courtyard in defensive positions, the other team can NEVER break the turtle (even with vehicles)... and the grueling stalemate that ensues frequently lasts 90+ minutes. It's not fun at all and incredibly boring.

I think part of the problem is the nature of the battleground itself: there are only two ways to win. The first way to win is to simply kill players from the enemy team until their reinforcements drop to 0. The second way is to kill the enemy team's boss (easier said than done if the enemy team is holed-up in their base "turtling"). So the ways to "win" in Isle of Conquest are very limited, and creative turtle-minded players exploit this flaw ruthlessly to wear down the attackers or frustrate them into quitting.

Maybe introduce a 3rd way to win or a time limit? Just an idea.

ITEM #2 - The vehicles are *still* too weak and too "squishy"

Apparently their damage was buffed, but they are still SUPER squishy healthpool-wise. The siege engine in particular seems to go down rather quick, sometimes it doesn't even make it to the enemy base before it is destroyed by simple cannon fire or nearby enemy players. It's the same thing for the glaive throwers, I've seen a single Rogue LITERALLY "solo" kill both glaives without any issues (he did it in like under 15 seconds lol). It shouldn't be like that, the vehicles *should* be able to "take a hit" and keep going. More health on the vehicles is a much needed buff.
Firstly, I've purchased the expansion on the back of these changes. Thanks!

Some more thoughts (following on from post #56):

Alterac Valley

    Looting is very frustrating at the moment. Need to click twice to loot a player, once to take an insignia and a second time to loot the items.

    Ivus and Lok'holar should be immune to roots, and steps to prevent kiting taken. Too many good ancients lost by one druid or hunter luring them away. Perhaps increase movement speed by 200%, in addition to a (significant) health and damage buff? They need to be more threatening.

    Ivus's roots are ticking for 400 damage, and Lok's Frost Nova is hitting for similar amounts.

    Can both ultimate units ignore pets?


Isle of Conquest

This has only popped 3 times since this thread, and two of those games were 14 minutes long. The other was 1 hour.

  • Siege vehicles did not feel particularly strong. Their damage feels fine, but their health did not. Siege Engine in particular was very squishy - died in 3 cannon fire hits and one rogue managed to take it down to 50% before it even moved into position.
  • I liked that the whole map saw action. Good changes to Refinery and Quarry.
  • Game play however was not overly engaging, particularly once gates were down. Bosses feel too easy, Overlord Agmar went down in 18 seconds.
  • Overlord Agmar and Halford should be immune to pets. Their damage might mean something if they weren't tanked by all the menagerie and summoned demons.
  • There is no point in the trash mobs that spawn when the gate breaks. They die in 2 hits. These should be challenging faction champions with smart AI, with a mix of classes to make them something 'more' - like the first line of defense for the commanders. They could grant bonus honor for slaying them, so there's bonus honor for the first group, then bonus honor for the group with the commander and finally killing the boss. Also would help with point 3 and gives raids something else to go after.
  • I'm 100% against the idea of penalizing players for defending, but I'm not sure what could be done to help an offensive team break into the keep if the entire raid piles up on the commander.
  • In AV, you utilize the turn ins which give you an offensive boost. In Isle, there isn't anything like that. Perhaps if you control all points (which if the entire raid is with their boss, you should be able to), you gain a buff called Territorial Dominance that increases your health and damage by X%?
    Also I'm probably one of the biggest advocates for long AV games but I don't think matches on retail should go beyond 2 hours, maybe 2.5 at a stretch. Definitely 1 hour- 1.5 hours. We'll have Warcraft: Classic soon enough for those that want the endless games. I'll be there too, but the player base on retail wouldn't be able to handle it (look at how many people leave even the current games).

    I think if they wanted to boost it further, another 100 reinforcements would mean that even after defeating all the objectives, there'd still be 300 left - which should be enough time to kill Vann or Drek - or for another 100 kills.

    The 100 additional reinforcements doesn't seem to have added too much time to games either, so another 100 shouldn't either.
    Can you fix the "pass on loot" option? Seems like it got removed in patch, get tons of prompts in AV to roll on stuff.
    07/29/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Bynir
    Ivus and Lok'holar should be immune to roots, and steps to prevent kiting taken. Too many good ancients lost by one druid or hunter luring them away. Perhaps increase movement speed by 200%, in addition to a (significant) health and damage buff? They need to be more threatening.

    Ivus and Lok are not supposed to win the battle for you; they are supposed to help you win the battle if you work with them. If you escort them and CC any kiters, they will help you kill them. If you let them fend for themselves, then they should be kitable by other side.

    I agree they need to do more damage. The tower archers need to do more damage, too; they used to take 20-30% off your health per shot, which pretty much prevented ride bys and races.

    I think what we're finding here is that Blizzard should have buffed/restored all of the NPCs equally, instead of just concentrating on the generals and captains.
    ALTERAC VALLEY

    ITEM #4 - Fix the random, intermittent "bugging out" of the summoning process

    I've been in matches where all the requirements for summoning Ice Lord were "met" (200 bloods handed in, summoner NPC's still alive, summoner NPC's made it to the summoning location, etc etc) but the summon never "goes off" for some strange reason. I look around and double-check that we have at least 10 players and that everyone is clicking/channeling the summoning rune - yep. Is everyone standing still? Yep. And yet... nothing happens. In my opinion the summoning process should "work" EVERY single time (assuming all the other pre-requisites were met).

    I am guessing it's some sort of old legacy bug that was never sorted out. I have heard Alliance players complain about sometimes having the same thing happen to them while attempting to summon Ivus. I imagine whatever this strange bug is, your tech monkeys and tech underlings should be able to figure it out if told to do so.
    Enjoying AV a ton now. really great job!

    Anything to make it last even longer would be better. Bring back wing commanders, bring back the mine field, bring back neutral trolls/korrak(the big troll, forget his name).

    There's not enough side objectives outside of towers imo, should bring back more stuff you took away.

    IOC is still a disaster. The game ends in 10 minutes with the alliance just rushing your base and horde rushing the alliance base. Doesn't feel epic at all, just a PVE/siege fest with no fun.

    Suggestion for IOC: It needs guards, lots of them. Everywhere inside bases. The main boss for alliance/horde needs to be massively stronger. It basically needs to be as hard to rush into the enemy base as it is in AV. It's far too easy to kill the bosses and be inside the bases. Add infinite re-spawning guards, anything. I don't know, it's really not a fun map because it's too easy to rush/zerg.
    Enjoying AV a ton now. really great job!

    Anything to make it last even longer would be better. Bring back wing commanders, bring back the mine field, bring back neutral trolls/korrak(the big troll, forget his name).

    There's not enough side objectives outside of towers imo, should bring back more stuff you took away.
    OMG... so much yes to this, would be awesome.

    "The more the merrier" xD
    07/29/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Yarrow

    Ivus and Lok are not supposed to win the battle for you; they are supposed to help you win the battle if you work with them. If you escort them and CC any kiters, they will help you kill them. If you let them fend for themselves, then they should be kitable by other side.


    I completely get that, but right now they're too easy to kite (Ivus more so than Lok, given he has stuns and a snare).

    You can't do much if you're hoping Ivus will help break the Iceblood choke, and notice him ignoring the entire Horde raid to chase a druid in travel form behind enemy lines. This would be less of an issue if they had more health and damage, but in any event the ultimate units should have basic immunities any decent rare or mini boss has.
    07/30/2018 12:11 AMPosted by Bynir
    You can't do much if you're hoping Ivus will help break the Iceblood choke, and notice him ignoring the entire Horde raid to chase a druid in travel form behind enemy lines. This would be less of an issue if they had more health and damage, but in any event the ultimate units should have basic immunities any decent rare or mini boss has.

    Okay, let me be specific.

    When Ivus was summoned in Vanilla, you had to have a group, and preferably the whole raid, accompanying Ivus and moving with him, both ahead of him and behind him, watching carefully for anyone that might attempt to kite. As a hunter, for example, it was very satisfying to concussive shot anyone who tried to kite Ivus, and watch Ivus one shot him. As noted, Ivus needs a buff so he can do that again.

    That said, the druid superspeed talent might be enough to escape even with concussive shot. The solution would not be to make Ivus not require an escort, but rather to nerf the overpowered talent.

    However, your use of the word "hoping" suggests that you're not using Ivus correctly. You should time an assault on the Iceblood chokepoint to hit a few seconds before Ivus gets there to help you.

    And on a tangent, the ram riders are better at breaking the Iceblood chokepoint, though it probably needs to be a druid accompanying them since aspect of the cheetah was nerfed. Ivus is really better for breaking into the Horde base.
    These are much welcome changes. It's making the grind for the conquer title much more enjoyable. Although I do wish ya'll would just merge achievements between all characters already... -.- I'd have had my title years ago between this toon and my old warlock.
    increased honor/rewards needed for playing. Really weird to win a long match with 500 honor and there's several on the losing team with 450. Rewards should be increased for both sides.
    07/30/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Dolsonn
    increased honor/rewards needed for playing. Really weird to win a long match with 500 honor and there's several on the losing team with 450. Rewards should be increased for both sides.
    Is this random or specific queuing? Seems too close if random queues but makes sense if you specific queue since you don’t get the random bonus.
    I love the new AV! I know its not for everybody, but it makes the game way more interesting than just zerging bases. I'm not a fan of the Isle of Conquest changes.
    Thanks for the lively discussion, everyone! Some updates:

    Alterac Valley

    We feel Alterac Valley is in a pretty decent spot. We've seen a dip in Alliance win rates, but want to give them time to re-adjust and strategize after the changes. We'll continue to monitor things and make changes where necessary.

    We realize players have a passion for some of Alterac Valley's classic mechanics (Ivus, Lokholar). While we have no immediate changes to announce yet, its something we may adjust in the future.

    Isle of Conquest

    We've identified an issue with the Keep Cannons dealing too much damage to vehicles. We believe this is causing defense to be stronger than intended. We are going to significantly reduce the damage the Keep Cannons deal to vehicles, but still retain their power against players.

    Some other additional changes:
    • When a gate is destroyed, that faction will lose 50 Reinforcements. This will give offense an option of destroying more gates if the opposing team is "turtling."
    • The Siege Engine will now be immune to roots and snares.
    • Health of the Glaive Towers and Demolishers moderately increased.
    • Damage and siege damage of the Airship Cannons significantly increased.

    We hope to have these changes live soon, and appreciate your continued feedback.

    Thank You!
    07/30/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Phalanx
    Thanks for the lively discussion, everyone! Some updates:

    Alterac Valley

    We feel Alterac Valley is in a pretty decent spot. We've seen a dip in Alliance win rates, but want to give them time to re-adjust and strategize after the changes. We'll continue to monitor things and make changes where necessary.

    We realize players have a passion for some of Alterac Valley's classic mechanics (Ivus, Lokholar). While we have no immediate changes to announce yet, its something we may adjust in the future.

    Isle of Conquest

    We've identified an issue with the Keep Cannons dealing too much damage to vehicles. We believe this is causing defense to be stronger than intended. We are going to significantly reduce the damage the Keep Cannons deal to vehicles, but still retain their power against players.

    Some other additional changes:
    • When a gate is destroyed, that faction will lose 50 Reinforcements. This will give offense an option of destroying more gates if the opposing team is "turtling."
    • The Siege Engine will now be immune to roots and snares.
    • Health of the Glaive Towers and Demolishers moderately increased.
    • Damage and siege damage of the Airship Cannons significantly increased.

    We hope to have these changes live soon, and appreciate your continued feedback.

    Thank You!


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