I feel lied to.

Story Forum
08/21/2018 08:35 PMPosted by Andolfson
Grill tauren children as hamburgers?

but that would be to feed the poor people of kultiras, have you taken a look in the lower districts? kultiras is a mess with a lot of crime,pirates,and homeless.
Honestly I feel lied to as well. "Morally grey." They honestly could not make this less morally grey. Sylvanas starts the war, genocides the night elves, kills her own troops in the field, raises them as undead, destroys her own city. Anduin spares Saurfang, and wants nothing more than to simply capture or kill Sylvanas so the horde can have a better leader. It coud not be more black and white. And it's not as if the Alliance can't handle the idea of their faction not always being upstanding. One of the very first plotlines, and very first dungeons they do, was about the nobles of Stormwind cheating a bunch of laborers out of their pay and being persecuted by the military.

I don't get it. Do you know what morally grey means, Blizzard? The alliance would literally be justified in occupying every major horde city, dismantling the horde altogether, and throwing their leaders in prison/executing them, and it still wouldn't be morally grey. The only way it's going to be morally grey now is if the Alliance commits a genocide of its own in return.
Another potentially relevant quote for the collection. This is from an interview with production director John Hight on May 2. (As I collect these quotes, I'm interested to note the wide range of people who are actually saying these things.)

https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-battle-for-azeroth-races

But the presence of the Legion itself was so potentially devastating for all of Azeroth, the factions just didn’t have time to explore what really happened – whether the Horde really betrayed the Alliance or not. Now that that big enemy has been defeated, I think the Alliance are returning to a point where they can explore that thinking of, ‘We felt betrayed, we lost our king’. And, of course, Anduin is coming into his own as a young man – he certainly misses the presence of his father, but he recognises his responsibility as king, and one of the first things on his mind is to get some redemption for what happened.

I don't think we're seen much sign of this motivation from Anduin so far. Before the Storm would have been the perfect place for it. Possibly this is also what person in the Korean interview meant when talking about "the king's dignity."

What’s the reaction from players been so far?

Well first off, we haven’t told anyone how this expansion’s going to end, so don’t make too many assumptions! It’s fun to speculate but we’re not going to tell you what’s going to happen until the last update to the expansion occurs. We have plenty of interesting and exciting twists and turns in store for you.

But I think in general the reception has been pretty good. It’s funny, we plan out these stories and we bring in the team in groups in the early stages and run them through the story and talk about the features we’d like to do in the expansion so we’re all on the same page. I think the team at first were a little unsure about where we were going. We had a lot of, ‘So it’s going to be Horde vs Alliance again?’. They were concerned that everyone would think that the whole game had become PvP. We had to make it clear that no, it’s really going to be about the conflict itself.

Has it been tricky to convince players that isn’t just a PvP expansion?

I don’t think so. I think the cinematic that the team produced really tells you the potential of what this game could be. When we showed that at Blizzcon and the cheers went up, I think everyone really kind of got it. For me, when I first saw that, even just the storyboards, I thought, ‘Man, now I get it, now I can see what the potential of this story could be’.

But I think overall, it’s been a positive reception. I don’t get a lot by people saying the battle between factions is a bad idea, I think people are fairly excited. It does hark back to the early days of WoW, and even Warcraft itself. A lot of these stories were told through that lens, so I know people are going to be excited when they get to play the game. Even the sceptics are going to find that this was a pretty good creative choice.

Inevitably, there has to be a winner and a loser. How will you ensure that players on the losing side don’t feel hard-done-by?

Well again, we’re not going to tell you how this all ends! There are going to be individual scenarios and battles where there’s a winner and a loser for sure, but those are the battles and not the war. We’re being very careful come the end of this that you’re not going to feel like you’ve chosen the wrong faction and that you’re with the losing side. But there will be times where you certainly have to pick yourself back out of the dust and prepare for the next battle. But that’s part of what’s going to create the tension between your faction and the opposing side.

This is also the interview that mentioned the separate Horde and Alliance storyline/design teams.
08/23/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Pellex
We’re being very careful come the end of this that you’re not going to feel like you’ve chosen the wrong faction and that you’re with the losing side.


I'll take that bet.
08/23/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Anelaan
08/23/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Pellex
We’re being very careful come the end of this that you’re not going to feel like you’ve chosen the wrong faction and that you’re with the losing side.


I'll take that bet.


Right?
I'm not confident at all that I'll be satisfied with the ending of this story.

Sylvanas went too far burning Teldrassil for them to do a copout 'we fought against N'zoth together, let's be friends now.' I'm still recovering from 'Draenor is FREEEEEE' if they pull something like that with Sylvanas, I'm not going to buy it.

If they have us deposing Sylvanas, even if she's not the final raid boss or even a raid boss in general, that's too much of a Garrosh retread.

With the way things are set up it's hard for me to imagine an outcome that won't be a copout or a retread, and I don't have enough faith in blizzard's writers right now to give them the benefit of the doubt.
https://www.pcgamer.com/wows-game-director-responds-to-battle-for-azeroths-elf-genocide-drama-and-rocky-pre-patch/

[Production Director John] Hight: One of the fun things about WoW is that we really can tell episodic stories. It's not like we push out the game and people burn through it and the spoilers are available. We can absolutely trick you. If you think that we're doing something that's blatantly obvious and repeating itself, just stay tuned because we're probably setting you up for a surprise.
08/30/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Pellex
We can absolutely trick you. If you think that we're doing something that's blatantly obvious and repeating itself, just stay tuned because we're probably setting you up for a surprise.


08/23/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Anelaan
I'll take that bet.
08/30/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Pellex
https://www.pcgamer.com/wows-game-director-responds-to-battle-for-azeroths-elf-genocide-drama-and-rocky-pre-patch/

[quote][Production Director John] Hight: One of the fun things about WoW is that we really can tell episodic stories. It's not like we push out the game and people burn through it and the spoilers are available. We can absolutely trick you. If you think that we're doing something that's blatantly obvious and repeating itself, just stay tuned because we're probably setting you up for a surprise.

That cements the Kerrigan route, imo. "You thought Sylvanas was evil? SURPRISE! She's the hero!"
08/30/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Reignac
That cements the Kerrigan route, imo. "You thought Sylvanas was evil? SURPRISE! She's the hero!"

Uuughhh. Why Blizzard?

It was god awful the first time, it will be god awful the second time.
I thought the Kerrigan story was good, so sue me. There was no logical reason for Kerrigan to be evil other than he being made a zerg, so once her mind was freed it made perfect sense for her to be good, not sure why that isn't perfectly logical.

Now Sylvanas being good would be different, as other than the Curse of Undeath and the way it seems to kill peoples emotions she has not really changed who she is. So that being said everything she's done is her own actions, and I don't want them to redeem her. I want her to lead a dark and glorious Horde for years to come. Now more likely they will do some redemption or semi redemption story, but that begs the question of how.

Do they find the reason why most of the Forsaken mostly lose the empathy they had in life - but not all of them for some reason and somehow change that? It would take some real ridiculous plot turns for that to take place.

We'll just have to wait and see.
08/30/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Ershan
08/30/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Reignac
That cements the Kerrigan route, imo. "You thought Sylvanas was evil? SURPRISE! She's the hero!"

Uuughhh. Why Blizzard?

It was god awful the first time, it will be god awful the second time.

Friend we either get the seige of orgrimmar epilogue (they reveal the twist was making you think there was a twist) or the epilogue of sc2.

both are !@#$
*Munches on popcorn*

Keep these quotes coming, this is great.
08/30/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tråpstar
so once her mind was freed it made perfect sense for her to be good, not sure why that isn't perfectly logical.

Except she wasn't good? That's the whole problem with her initial "redemption." She literally wiped out entire planets (billions of humans and protoss) after she was freed to get revenge on one guy.

And then they randomly transformed her into some holy savior-goddess of the universe. That in and of itself made no sense.
08/30/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tråpstar
Now more likely they will do some redemption or semi redemption story, but that begs the question of how.

By doing the same thing they did with Kerrigan and AU Grom: completely ignoring everything that happened in the story.
08/30/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tråpstar
I thought the Kerrigan story was good
It takes a brave man to admit they have HORRIFICALLY AWFUL TASTE.
The thing that makes Sylvanas particularly bad is that there actually is a very good, complex, female character who could be operating in shades of grey this expansion: Jaina.

Jaina is, for WoW, a very complex character. A woman who, in her youth, thought that cooperation with the horde was the best path forward. Who was so committed to this ideal that she stood aside as the horde killed her father. Who now feels tormented by guilt because of the choices she made, because the horde again and again repaid her kindness and mercy with slaughter. Yes, each time that was done, the horde was under the control of basically a dictator, but at this point Jaina could be forgiven for thinking that the horde will inevitably gravitate towards mass murder in the service of a dictator. Jaina is an incredibly tragic figure, driven, very understandably, from her youthful ideals of cooperating with the horde, to her current state, where she seems to be embracing the view her father had of them. THAT is how you do shades of gray. If they had Jaina do something awful - like nuke a major horde city - but then give her a redemption/self-sacrifice plotline, that would make sense.

Sylvanas, on the other hand, has always been incredibly shallow in comparison, and any self-sacrifice/redemption plotline for her would just feel awful.
08/30/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
08/30/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tråpstar
I thought the Kerrigan story was good
It takes a brave man to admit they have HORRIFICALLY AWFUL TASTE.


Meh, I think literally everyone has at least one story or plotline commonly considered !@#$ty that they enjoy.

That being said here as I said I don't want redemption, I am highly expecting it in some form or another - hopefully not the obvious - but I don't want it. I also don't want the Horde to be shamed again and have Sylvanas become yet another raid boss, in my ideal world we simply embrace the dark side. Maybe tone it down slightly and let the Alliance ramp up their actions a bit but I prefer to be play the anti hero role, the role of villains necessary for keeping Azeroth alive.

Every questline that has supposedly been made to give the player shame in Horde questing has only given my glee, in the WoW universe I do not self insert, at all. I play it the same way I play a game of GTA, or might in the future play a game of Cyberpunk for example. I'm a badass who does what they want and let's others suffer the consequences. Feels good.
08/30/2018 01:10 PMPosted by Kaloran
The thing that makes Sylvanas particularly bad is that there actually is a very good, complex, female character who could be operating in shades of grey this expansion: Jaina.

Jaina is, for WoW, a very complex character. A woman who, in her youth, thought that cooperation with the horde was the best path forward. Who was so committed to this ideal that she stood aside as the horde killed her father. Who now feels tormented by guilt because of the choices she made, because the horde again and again repaid her kindness and mercy with slaughter. Yes, each time that was done, the horde was under the control of basically a dictator, but at this point Jaina could be forgiven for thinking that the horde will inevitably gravitate towards mass murder in the service of a dictator. Jaina is an incredibly tragic figure, driven, very understandably, from her youthful ideals of cooperating with the horde, to her current state, where she seems to be embracing the view her father had of them. THAT is how you do shades of gray. If they had Jaina do something awful - like nuke a major horde city - but then give her a redemption/self-sacrifice plotline, that would make sense.

Sylvanas, on the other hand, has always been incredibly shallow in comparison, and any self-sacrifice/redemption plotline for her would just feel awful.


If they had Jaina nuke a major horde city she'd be just as bad as Sylvanas. Not that I care, I think that'd be great, but you don't somehow get the go ahead to murder a whole bunch of civilian and children just because of a city just because you feel ANGERY. That'd be worse than even Garrosh who struck Theramore after a long delay in which most of the non combatants were evacuated, meaning he killed almost solely military targets.
08/30/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Tråpstar
08/30/2018 01:10 PMPosted by Kaloran
The thing that makes Sylvanas particularly bad is that there actually is a very good, complex, female character who could be operating in shades of grey this expansion: Jaina.

Jaina is, for WoW, a very complex character. A woman who, in her youth, thought that cooperation with the horde was the best path forward. Who was so committed to this ideal that she stood aside as the horde killed her father. Who now feels tormented by guilt because of the choices she made, because the horde again and again repaid her kindness and mercy with slaughter. Yes, each time that was done, the horde was under the control of basically a dictator, but at this point Jaina could be forgiven for thinking that the horde will inevitably gravitate towards mass murder in the service of a dictator. Jaina is an incredibly tragic figure, driven, very understandably, from her youthful ideals of cooperating with the horde, to her current state, where she seems to be embracing the view her father had of them. THAT is how you do shades of gray. If they had Jaina do something awful - like nuke a major horde city - but then give her a redemption/self-sacrifice plotline, that would make sense.

Sylvanas, on the other hand, has always been incredibly shallow in comparison, and any self-sacrifice/redemption plotline for her would just feel awful.


If they had Jaina nuke a major horde city she'd be just as bad as Sylvanas. Not that I care, I think that'd be great, but you don't somehow get the go ahead to murder a whole bunch of civilian and children just because of a city just because you feel ANGERY. That'd be worse than even Garrosh who struck Theramore after a long delay in which most of the non combatants were evacuated, meaning he killed almost solely military targets.


Nobody ever said it would make things okay. But don't oversimplify. It wouldn't merely be because Jaina was "angry". It would be because a long, tragic, unfortunate history had driven her to the wrong but understandable conclusion that there simply can never be peace with the horde, and their continued existence on Azeroth would never mean anything other than more friends and loved ones butchered and bleeding. Made all the more tragic by the fact that in her youth, she was one of the major voices advocating for peace with the horde, to the extent that she stood aside and watched her father be killed for it.

That doesn't make it right. It would still make Jaina a villain. But she'd be a much better villain, with much better, more interesting motivations, than Sylvanas (or Kerrigan for that matter.)

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