To the Horde players upset over the burning of Teldrassil

General Discussion
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Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.

Yes, seeing Sylvanas giving the order was both emotionally and morally shocking, but it made sense tactically. A Horde occupation of Teldrassil would have been about as successful as the US occupation of Iraq. Summermoon’s comments made it clear the Night Elves would never give up. An occupation would have been a disaster for the Horde and left them weaker for it. Sylvanas recognized this and gave the order.
It made no sense tactically and was done on pure emotion. Sylvanas even said her goal was to capture the tree.
08/01/2018 05:52 AMPosted by Reinidar
It made no sense tactically and was done on pure emotion. Sylvanas even said her goal was to capture the tree.


Tell me how it made no sense tactically? The goal was to strike a blow at the alliance and crush their spirits while cutting off their supply line to Kalimdor.
Everyone is all angry at Sylvanas for this but somehow Teflon Saurfang gets a pass. This is his fault. Had he done his job and killed Malfurion instead of letting him go DEFYING his warchief while he preaches about honor blah blah then no burning happens. That one death saves how many? Instead what happens he doesnt do his job, we have to hear more Malfurion Tyrande whining, and a tree gets burned.
Like what she says you cant kill hope which was the entire goal in the first place... her response 'Cant I?' fits here. Like ohhhhh I did all this and you are on your deathbed yet you still have hope and it was for nothing..... well ok then burn baby burn.
TL:DR Talk !@#$, Get lit
huh....my comment got deleted.
08/01/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Atheinia
Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.


We generally don't burn them with all the people still inside.
They got mages... Portal out.
08/01/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Xirmak
Tell me how it made no sense tactically? The goal was to strike a blow at the alliance and crush their spirits while cutting off their supply line to Kalimdor.


she tells you right after the cinematic that she knows this isn't going to deter the alliance and to prepare for a counter-attack. There was no reason to burn the tree other than to just do it to kill people.

you don't "kill hope" for people. you know why? because it actually makes them fight that much harder. the alliance, the night elves in this instance, know that they wouldn't get anything out of a surrender deal with horde if it came to it. so why bother pulling punches? why bother trying to negotiate a surrender? neither will work so they'll fight like cornered beasts.

it's a bad move tactically. it was a bad move from the beginning because her reasons are bad to begin with. azerite is popping up all over azeroth and sylvanas knows this. her plan to take and hold it to stop the alliance from getting azerite isn't going to stop them from getting azerite.

she just wanted to kill things. that's it. that's not military strategy.
08/01/2018 05:52 AMPosted by Reinidar
It made no sense tactically and was done on pure emotion. Sylvanas even said her goal was to capture the tree.
Well it kind of was. Her goal was to crush their hope and realized she has to burn the tree to do that. However she still didn't she achieved that.
08/01/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Atheinia
Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.

Yes, seeing Sylvanas giving the order was both emotionally and morally shocking, but it made sense tactically. A Horde occupation of Teldrassil would have been about as successful as the US occupation of Iraq. Summermoon’s comments made it clear the Night Elves would never give up. An occupation would have been a disaster for the Horde and left them weaker for it. Sylvanas recognized this and gave the order.


You have no honour, and you know that the best outcome was for Sylvanus to defeat the enemy in battle. Not burn innocent nightelfs. You also dishonour the true horde players who are in revulsion of your warchiefs action. I suggest you reflect on what has happened and learn from it you dishonourable horde player.
08/01/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Radomir
08/01/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Xirmak
Tell me how it made no sense tactically? The goal was to strike a blow at the alliance and crush their spirits while cutting off their supply line to Kalimdor.


she tells you right after the cinematic that she knows this isn't going to deter the alliance and to prepare for a counter-attack. There was no reason to burn the tree other than to just do it to kill people.

you don't "kill hope" for people. you know why? because it actually makes them fight that much harder. the alliance, the night elves in this instance, know that they wouldn't get anything out of a surrender deal with horde if it came to it. so why bother pulling punches? why bother trying to negotiate a surrender? neither will work so they'll fight like cornered beasts.

it's a bad move tactically. it was a bad move from the beginning because her reasons are bad to begin with. azerite is popping up all over azeroth and sylvanas knows this. her plan to take and hold it to stop the alliance from getting azerite isn't going to stop them from getting azerite.

she just wanted to kill things. that's it. that's not military strategy.


Also, she was going to kill Malfurion for demoralizing them. Instead she walks away and leaves the kill to saurfang who literally just said "this was dishonourable I should not have intervened". She should know that he isn't going to kill him, she also pissed away an opportunity for no reason.

@OP The problem isnt the tree burning. It's how they got her character to rationalize the decision. Dont mix up frustration with poor characterization of someone who is supposed to be a smart war general with burning of the tree.
The problem is not burning the tree, per se.

The chief problem is that this is just a rerun of the Garrosh storyline.

Review this chart:
https://imgur.com/AF8UsOj
How come all the frost mages just didn't use Blizzard to put out the fires? :)
08/01/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Infernastorm
08/01/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Atheinia
Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.


We generally don't burn them with all the people still inside.


Unfortunately in real war... this just isn't true.

War is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing. Innocents get in the way of irrational leaders fighting over what? Even when fighting is "honorable" innocents are the victims and often get in the way and don't have time to flee. It's what war is and why people hate it so much.
08/01/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Atheinia
Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.

Yes, seeing Sylvanas giving the order was both emotionally and morally shocking, but it made sense tactically. A Horde occupation of Teldrassil would have been about as successful as the US occupation of Iraq. Summermoon’s comments made it clear the Night Elves would never give up. An occupation would have been a disaster for the Horde and left them weaker for it. Sylvanas recognized this and gave the order.


It was not emotional or shocking it was disappointing. All of the Horde members should have been against it. We went from spending a few months invading the Nightmare saving Malfurion to trying to kill him. Horde Druids who were just leaders and friends with Alliance are now burning down trees and killing wisps/fellow Druids. A horrible timegated pre-patch with world quests as rewards in 2018. Now Sylvanas has no redemption arc so shes going to be Garrosh 2.0. How the hell are we invading Teldrassil with the Vindicaar and all the OP lightforged just hanging out on Azeroth now? They should have glassed us and killed all our leaders at once.

Now the storys going to be fairly straightforward. Alliance can do no wrong in killing us and we are 100% the bad guys. Its like MoP with Garrosh just much much worse with another beloved character thats butchered and will probably end the same way if this trash continues.

She hated Garrosh and Arthas but is following in there footsteps. It didnt work out for either of them so why would she?
In the end none of this matters.

We were promised a morally grey war. Both sides having both good and bad. This is not that, and cannot become that.

For the next several years we will fight this war that Sylvanas started this way. That isn't morally grey at all. Now it's "fight the war the Horde warchief started with a war crime."

So no, I do not believe there is a way to walk this back.

Blizzard lied to us, again. I am done.
We burned innocents in their home...that is horrible.
08/01/2018 06:02 AMPosted by Radomir
08/01/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Xirmak
Tell me how it made no sense tactically? The goal was to strike a blow at the alliance and crush their spirits while cutting off their supply line to Kalimdor.


she tells you right after the cinematic that she knows this isn't going to deter the alliance and to prepare for a counter-attack. There was no reason to burn the tree other than to just do it to kill people.

you don't "kill hope" for people. you know why? because it actually makes them fight that much harder. the alliance, the night elves in this instance, know that they wouldn't get anything out of a surrender deal with horde if it came to it. so why bother pulling punches? why bother trying to negotiate a surrender? neither will work so they'll fight like cornered beasts.

it's a bad move tactically. it was a bad move from the beginning because her reasons are bad to begin with. azerite is popping up all over azeroth and sylvanas knows this. her plan to take and hold it to stop the alliance from getting azerite isn't going to stop them from getting azerite.

she just wanted to kill things. that's it. that's not military strategy.


So it is a bad move to vanquish ones enemies? Hopefully she puts you in a catapult and fires you into the alliance when they attack Lordaeron.

As far as azerite..... you pretend as if gold doesnt pop up all over the earth yet places are contested for such things like gold and diamonds. Contested in blood. Oh just because it started popping up in a few places doesnt mean you just sit around and wait for it to pop up in your backyard. Strongholds and cities have been razed since time was time and warfare has been warfare.

How about for the people of Lordaeron who are the natural inhabitants there who are the forsaken had the alliance shut them out and turn their backs as they let their people and lands die? POS Genn who didnt answer when called upon and instead threw up a wall to hide behind. But now its Lordaeron is rightfully ours and you come to take it. Burn them all. They are called enemies for a reason.

Again I like how you completely glossed over Saurfang. Teflon orc gets another pass I see.

This all starts with two insubordinates: Genn Greymane who has his own agenda and doesnt do what his King tells him. Had he not gone rogue to chase Sylvanas in Stormheim because of his own lust for vengeance perhaps this attack never happens. If Saurfang who preaches honor and horde and all that BS followed his warchief and did his job none of this happens.

Instead..... it did happen and no more holding hands to overcome some garbage have to save Azeroth from X,Y, and Z. If Sylvanas was truly against the living..... She would have let Sargeras and the Legion burn this world to ash. On the broken shore she would have stood her ground while she saw the Horde in a no win situation.
The underlying issue is we weren't *at* war. I think that, sadly, is what made the execution of this so poor.

Were the Horde and Alliance already in the midst of an intense planet wide war with both sides throwing their worst at each other, then this really wouldn't have received the revulsion it did. If it had happened in the midst of Cataclysm when the Horde and Alliance were in open warfare across Azeroth it would've been a "For the Horde" moment and the writers could've gotten away with 'war is ugly'. But that's not the context we were thrown into. Rather, we had just saved the world from the Burning Legion - everyone had come together filling 12 class halls with members of both factions. Everyone was happy. Everyone was tired of fighting.

The event is so reviled not just because of the unnecessary slaughter of innocents, but because this was the *first* blow, a surprise blow in a war that I'm not sure the Alliance was even 100% aware it was fighting yet. It seemed clear that the Alliance at least had no intention of threatening the Horde or breaking their newfound peace until Sylvanas decided to raze a capital (and I guess kill some SI:7 derps in Silithus prior to that).

What we're left with is a situation where no matter what else happens throughout the course of this war, whatever the Alliance does in retaliation that may or may not prove to be just as bad as what Sylvanas did; history will remember that the Horde forced the Alliance into a war of self-defense by razing an Alliance capital and burning everyone inside alive.
08/01/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Infernastorm
08/01/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Atheinia
Just keep in mind that burning enemy cities has been standard operating procedure in war for thousands of years.


We generally don't burn them with all the people still inside.


Lol yeah we do. Look at Dresden, Tokyo, Manila, Warsaw.... And those are just heavy hitters in the 20th century. This !@#$ goes way back to the beginning of history.
Scourge of the Kaldorei all day

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