Delete LFR and replace it

General Discussion
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08/05/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Jalen
I meant that for Heroic and Mythic not normal.


So, basically, you're removing LFR difficulty and replacing it with a 'Normal' that's balanced around groups of randoms thrown together, that's basically LFR difficulty, but it's called Normal. Basically, just removing Normal mode.

lol
08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
Same thing I always say when I see these threads. LFR was designed originally as a way for players who didn't have time for raiding, to still see the story. The story was always locked behind raids, and if you didn't raid, you never knew how it ended. You had to resort to youtube to see it.

So Blizz introduced LFR so those who didn't have the time for hardcore raiding, could still see the story. The gear was added because it was necessary. Otherwise people would complain that they get nothing for doing it.

My solution was to make LFR gear equal to dungeon gear. Remove epic quality from dungeons, go back to rare quality for dungeons. And as well, make LFR give rare quality dungeon loot. This removes LFR from progression by not providing better gear than what you can get in dungeons, while still allowing players to still see the conclusion to the story.

This also solves the issue of hardcore raiders getting the actual epic gear, without giving casual players easy mode purps. If they want those epics, start raiding. Otherwise, be content with your casual blues. This also means that WQs should only give dungeon quality blues as well.

Make epics epic again basically. Blues should be rewarded via quests, WQs, and dungeons (and LFR). Epics should be epic and only rewarded via hardcore raiding (normal, heroic, mythic). A full set of dungeon/LFR blues should be more than enough to get you into normal mode raiding if you want the purps, otherwise, enjoy the casual gear.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is where I was hoping we would end up, this is reasonable and a good middle ground.
08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
Same thing I always say when I see these threads. LFR was designed originally as a way for players who didn't have time for raiding, to still see the story. The story was always locked behind raids, and if you didn't raid, you never knew how it ended. You had to resort to youtube to see it.

So Blizz introduced LFR so those who didn't have the time for hardcore raiding, could still see the story. The gear was added because it was necessary. Otherwise people would complain that they get nothing for doing it.

My solution was to make LFR gear equal to dungeon gear. Remove epic quality from dungeons, go back to rare quality for dungeons. And as well, make LFR give rare quality dungeon loot. This removes LFR from progression by not providing better gear than what you can get in dungeons, while still allowing players to still see the conclusion to the story.

This also solves the issue of hardcore raiders getting the actual epic gear, without giving casual players easy mode purps. If they want those epics, start raiding. Otherwise, be content with your casual blues. This also means that WQs should only give dungeon quality blues as well.

Make epics epic again basically. Blues should be rewarded via quests, WQs, and dungeons (and LFR). Epics should be epic and only rewarded via hardcore raiding (normal, heroic, mythic). A full set of dungeon/LFR blues should be more than enough to get you into normal mode raiding if you want the purps, otherwise, enjoy the casual gear.


I agree with all this. But the problem is that these people don’t actually care about seeing the content. They just want to get epics without having to put in any effort. They would be just as happy if you just mailed them an epic every week.
08/05/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Jalen
I'd say delete LFR and make normal que'able. Then change the raid design to have it's difficulty be dictated by how the players approach the beginning portion leading up to the first boss. Like Ulduar


So basically just keep LFR but make it more difficult. Gotcha
08/05/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Stonebrae
I agree with all this. But the problem is that these people don’t actually care about seeing the content. They just want to get epics without having to put in any effort. They would be just as happy if you just mailed them an epic every week.


So you can get a titanforged epic for killing a turtle in open world content but you somehow see a problem with epics being dropped in LFR? They're raid bosses.. Raids drop epics. I can pay a mythic team gold to die in a corner at the beginning of every fight and get not only some of the best gear in the game, but also get cutting edge and the mount for not even pressing one ability, LFR is the singular problem in effort / reward though amirite?
08/05/2018 12:26 PMPosted by Ôwns
08/05/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Stonebrae
I agree with all this. But the problem is that these people don’t actually care about seeing the content. They just want to get epics without having to put in any effort. They would be just as happy if you just mailed them an epic every week.


So you can get a titanforged epic for killing a turtle in open world content but you somehow see a problem with epics being dropped in LFR? They're raid bosses.. Raids drop epics. I can pay a mythic team gold to die in a corner at the beginning of every fight and get not only some of the best gear in the game, but also get cutting edge and the mount for not even pressing one ability, LFR is the singular problem in effort / reward though amirite?


We aren’t talking about titanforging, but I don’t think it should be in the game either if that’s what you’re asking.

Question for you: would you be happy if Blizzard just mailed everyone a raid epic every day? Why or why not?
08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
Same thing I always say when I see these threads. LFR was designed originally as a way for players who didn't have time for raiding, to still see the story. The story was always locked behind raids, and if you didn't raid, you never knew how it ended. You had to resort to youtube to see it.

So Blizz introduced LFR so those who didn't have the time for hardcore raiding, could still see the story. The gear was added because it was necessary. Otherwise people would complain that they get nothing for doing it.

My solution was to make LFR gear equal to dungeon gear. Remove epic quality from dungeons, go back to rare quality for dungeons. And as well, make LFR give rare quality dungeon loot. This removes LFR from progression by not providing better gear than what you can get in dungeons, while still allowing players to still see the conclusion to the story.

This also solves the issue of hardcore raiders getting the actual epic gear, without giving casual players easy mode purps. If they want those epics, start raiding. Otherwise, be content with your casual blues. This also means that WQs should only give dungeon quality blues as well.

Make epics epic again basically. Blues should be rewarded via quests, WQs, and dungeons (and LFR). Epics should be epic and only rewarded via hardcore raiding (normal, heroic, mythic). A full set of dungeon/LFR blues should be more than enough to get you into normal mode raiding if you want the purps, otherwise, enjoy the casual gear.


that ship has long sailed. blizz would lose 80% of subscribers if they couldn't get purples without doing normal or higher raids. the first purple i ever got on this warlock was from rep during cata and i think it was some boots? or something? which i got from. you guessed it. running heroics over and over again. so i didn't have to raid. you can look at my raid history now. and i did some NH when it was current. i do lfr a little bit but not much. the thing that gets me is working at collecting currency to buy my purples. because to me questing is more fun than raiding. which is why i loved WQ so much when they were released. i did something. got something cool in return. running dungeons for rep with a tabard was also fun. :)
08/05/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Stonebrae
Wow you tried really hard here to show a difference. Because if you add in WotLK Naxx
PvP Raids are for PvP, not for PvE. They advance no story plot. They're just a way to get free PvP gear to help them out since that was at the time that dumb idea called Resilience was a thing.

Second, I guess you missed the part where I explained THAT I EXCLUDED NAXX BECAUSE IT WAS THE CURRENT RAID DEVELOPED AT 1.11. The only difference other than tuning for 40 man being switch to 10/25man was the fact Darion Mograine was swapped out of the Four Horsemen Encounter. It literally was a recycled raid. So no, it was not developed as part of an expansion. It was developed as part of the base raid. It is very significant though to LFR since that is the primary reason for LFR's existence... the fact < 1% cleared Naxxramas in Vanilla.

08/05/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Stonebrae
By your counting method we need to exclude Ragnaros, Gruul and Archimonde because they are re-used content. Also probably every Sha boss after the first since they all looked the same. What about Hagara because her boss room was reused from EoE?
While they were the same boss, the fights are mechanically different. So they're different. Your desperation to refute me is showing.

08/05/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Stonebrae
As much as you want to make stuff up to fit your narrative, the fact is we have gotten less raids and less raid bosses since LFR was released.
I gave the numbers. You can't dispute them. Sorry 'bout it!

NEXT!
I'd like it scaled down to 5 players, just so its more consistent with the amount of effort you put into those. I know its usually very little, but still it still takes more thought than lfr.

I mean if they are just going for the whole large group thing, I don't think theres anything that can be done. Its already gated by ilvl and the loot isnt better than normal so I don't know why you would want to remove it.
08/05/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Stonebrae
I agree with all this. But the problem is that these people don’t actually care about seeing the content. They just want to get epics without having to put in any effort. They would be just as happy if you just mailed them an epic every week.


Then they'll have to put in the work like everyone else would. Sure some will complain if these changes ever got implemented, but it would be for the good of the game in the end.

If you want those epics, then make the time for those epics. Otherwise, be happy with your blue gear.

I'm a casual player myself, and haven't done any hardcore raiding since BC. This change would affect me negatively, but at the same time, it would be necessary. If I want that high end gear, I'm going to have to step into actual raiding. Otherwise I will sit middle tier in my blues. And that's just the way it should be.

Patch 2.4 made epics easy mode (we all remember the welfare epics), and we need to get away from that. Epics shouldn't simply be handed out to everyone, they should be earned for doing the hardest content. That was the whole point of the loot quality in the first place.
How does somebody else running an LFR and getting awarded LFR tier gear effect you as an Elitist Hardcore raider? How does their experience detract from your own?

Wouldn’t you want to be promoting LFR as a source to increase your pool of potential further down the line? Making things accessible will only help increase the play base.

I just cannot understand how anyone’s game experience is changed because another player has used a group finding tool and has purple items from it, it’s nonsense and elitism at its finest
I won't do any content that I can't solo queue for, and no I'm not a newbie that started after the group finder system was put in place, I've been playing since Vanilla and have the achievements to prove it.

It's not about difficulty, you could make LFR ten times harder and I would still queue for it.

I just don't like running my own groups and I don't like being in groups where some other player is in charge and has the power to kick me for any reason.

In LFR everyone is equal and that's how I like my group content.

Taking away LFR wouldn't manipulate me into doing normals, it would just give me one less type of content to grind and result in me unsubbing quicker than if LFR had stayed.
I've raided in LFR on multiple toons a lot, and it really wasn't that toxic. In fact most of the people being toxic were because they detested being in a LFR group. That's where most of the insults and trolling came from, not from the casuals. So yeah, many people here are just wrong and make stuff up to win the argument.
How to solve this problem:

1. People like the OP simply refuse to queue for LFR and pretend it doesn't exist.
2. All problems solved.
08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
My solution was to make LFR gear equal to dungeon gear. Remove epic quality from dungeons, go back to rare quality for dungeons. And as well, make LFR give rare quality dungeon loot. This removes LFR from progression by not providing better gear than what you can get in dungeons, while still allowing players to still see the conclusion to the story.

Color of gear hasn't really meant much since WotLK, or maybe even TBC. Also, LFR is it's own line of progression. Players shouldn't be punished for playing the game in a way you don't approve of.

08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
This also solves the issue of hardcore raiders getting the actual epic gear, without giving casual players easy mode purps. If they want those epics, start raiding. Otherwise, be content with your casual blues. This also means that WQs should only give dungeon quality blues as well.

It doesn't solve anything. They tried making LFR less rewarding during WoD and immediately went back to regular rewards in Legion. Further, LFR stands for Looking for Raid. You can babble all you want about how it doesn't count as "true" raiding, but that's just a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy in place of a real argument.

08/05/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Nippyss
if you're horrid at the game and can't do normal then you shouldn't be seeing the content and getting your hand out trophy
If you suck at sport you won't make the team
if you suck at PvE then you won't make the raid

World of Warcraft is a video game. There are many examples of video games that have multiple difficulty settings, but it's only in WoW that some insane individuals act like it's a personal affront to their very existence.

Also, even in sports you can suck and still play with your friends. There's no grandmaster controlling who gets to play baseball or soccer or whatever across the planet.

So, in conclusion, take all of the time you're spending caring about how other people are playing the game and funnel all of it into focusing on yourself.
08/05/2018 12:37 PMPosted by Boffo
How to solve this problem:

1. People like the OP simply refuse to queue for LFR and pretend it doesn't exist.
2. All problems solved.
Yeah, but then that wouldn't involve him inflicting his uninformed opinion on everyone else.
08/05/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Snowfox
08/05/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Serkon
Don't people always complain about how toxic and awful LFR players are? Why do you want them in your normal/heroic/ whatever raid stuff you do community?

Let's be clear.

It's NOT the high-end mythic 0.1% progression raiders that complain about LFR.

It's the scrubby low-end wannabee elitists who do.


Personally I don't agree with the design model to be honest, and I've been raiding some level of mythic content for a good long time. I also don't like the mentality of raid or die and that's exactly what LFR helps promote since with raiding being the source for the best gear in the game if you just have to raid to get the best gear it makes other content look pointless for gear progression.

I also just kind of say whatever at this point provided Blizzard can simultaneously produce good raid content and good world content (which I would say they did in Legion). What I think most people don't recognize is that the current design model is largely liked by Blizzard because it's easier to deal with duplicating a raid four times than creating unique content over and over and over. That's why mage tower challenges aren't spec specific like they would have been in a perfect world and why class mount questlines were pretty much entirely using up content that already existed.

But if I had things my way (cue the "It's not your game" crap) then I'd say creating a game with a raiding floor and good world and dungeon content to be consumed would be the way to go. Suramar was a great step in that direction where we had a legit 110 only zone to work in.
08/05/2018 12:37 PMPosted by Crewthian
How does somebody else running an LFR and getting awarded LFR tier gear effect you as an Elitist Hardcore raider?


OP hasn't done anything outside of LFR.
08/05/2018 12:34 PMPosted by Vestalla
08/05/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Stonebrae
I agree with all this. But the problem is that these people don’t actually care about seeing the content. They just want to get epics without having to put in any effort. They would be just as happy if you just mailed them an epic every week.


Then they'll have to put in the work like everyone else would. Sure some will complain if these changes ever got implemented, but it would be for the good of the game in the end.

If you want those epics, then make the time for those epics. Otherwise, be happy with your blue gear.

I'm a casual player myself, and haven't done any hardcore raiding since BC. This change would affect me negatively, but at the same time, it would be necessary. If I want that high end gear, I'm going to have to step into actual raiding. Otherwise I will sit middle tier in my blues. And that's just the way it should be.

Patch 2.4 made epics easy mode (we all remember the welfare epics), and we need to get away from that. Epics shouldn't simply be handed out to everyone, they should be earned for doing the hardest content. That was the whole point of the loot quality in the first place.


I agree with you. Maybe they can come up with a new quality of loot for dungeons/LFR. Make it pink and call it something different
08/05/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Valdrane
I like pancakes. With butter and maple syrup!

Yummy!

I am getting really sick of the pancake sympathizers spewing their filth all over these forums. Everyone knows waffles are better! Get over yourself!

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