Delete LFR and replace it

General Discussion
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08/05/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Gwyyn
Getting rid of lfr wont force people into Normals.

All it will do is make lfr raiders stop raiding completely.

So no, it's never going away. Find some way to come to terms with that and move on with your life.


This.

People like the OP are incredibly ignorant to the fact that because of LFR it's actually paved the way for new players to actually TRY higher raiding difficulties. Like it or not, that's a fact.

Don't like the competition to fill your roster? Blame all the smaller guilds that there are a lot more of in recent years vs the handful of raiding guilds on each server.

Also, have a better attitude. People are pretty turned off by holier than thou behavior and this is why many just stick with LFR instead of joining a guild group for raiding.
Blizzard has the technology to evaluate certain mechanics and avoiding them, or stand in them, etc, etc because of the presence of achievements.

This might need some development, but my thought for LFR is that you begin to give players a rating based on how they performed in the fights. Sure...the mechanics don't actually kill you, but if you avoid them, your "score" goes up for that run.

Essentially, it's like a training wheels raid. You get to see the story but you also get evaluated on your performance, with incentives attached to continued performance over the course of a wing.
08/05/2018 12:37 PMPosted by Crewthian
How does somebody else running an LFR and getting awarded LFR tier gear effect you as an Elitist Hardcore raider? How does their experience detract from your own?

Wouldn’t you want to be promoting LFR as a source to increase your pool of potential further down the line? Making things accessible will only help increase the play base.

I just cannot understand how anyone’s game experience is changed because another player has used a group finding tool and has purple items from it, it’s nonsense and elitism at its finest


When LFR was first introduced there was an uproar because of the color of the gear. Purple is/was the color of the elite players. Elite (not elitists, there is a difference) I can understand that, the pride thing.
Plus downing the bosses on Normal and Heroic should be a prideful thing.

Even with raid finder on the gear, it wasn't enough for some. They wanted (and still do) the exclusive color. Many have just rolled with it and know that the difference between gear is noticeable. Others just cant let go.
08/05/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Stonebrae
08/05/2018 12:26 PMPosted by Ôwns
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So you can get a titanforged epic for killing a turtle in open world content but you somehow see a problem with epics being dropped in LFR? They're raid bosses.. Raids drop epics. I can pay a mythic team gold to die in a corner at the beginning of every fight and get not only some of the best gear in the game, but also get cutting edge and the mount for not even pressing one ability, LFR is the singular problem in effort / reward though amirite?


We aren’t talking about titanforging, but I don’t think it should be in the game either if that’s what you’re asking.

Question for you: would you be happy if Blizzard just mailed everyone a raid epic every day? Why or why not?


No, but that's not the same thing as LFR so I'm not really gonna explain anything.
08/05/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Siyara
Here's the most important quote of all:

"If not for the group finder tool (LFR), raid would have been phased out (NO MORE RAIDS) due to the excessive production budget. We couldn't justify spending that much money for content that only 7% of the playerbase was consuming."

-Ion Hazzikostas, in an interview.

No LFR, no raids in ANY difficulty.


I like how most people just ignore this from page 1.
08/05/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Vestalla
Same thing I always say when I see these threads. LFR was designed originally as a way for players who didn't have time for raiding, to still see the story. The story was always locked behind raids, and if you didn't raid, you never knew how it ended. You had to resort to youtube to see it.

So Blizz introduced LFR so those who didn't have the time for hardcore raiding, could still see the story. The gear was added because it was necessary. Otherwise people would complain that they get nothing for doing it.

My solution was to make LFR gear equal to dungeon gear. Remove epic quality from dungeons, go back to rare quality for dungeons. And as well, make LFR give rare quality dungeon loot. This removes LFR from progression by not providing better gear than what you can get in dungeons, while still allowing players to still see the conclusion to the story.

This also solves the issue of hardcore raiders getting the actual epic gear, without giving casual players easy mode purps. If they want those epics, start raiding. Otherwise, be content with your casual blues. This also means that WQs should only give dungeon quality blues as well.

Make epics epic again basically. Blues should be rewarded via quests, WQs, and dungeons (and LFR). Epics should be epic and only rewarded via hardcore raiding (normal, heroic, mythic). A full set of dungeon/LFR blues should be more than enough to get you into normal mode raiding if you want the purps, otherwise, enjoy the casual gear.


lol doing this wouldn't solve anything. People would just stop after seeing the raid once and if they wanted gear they could save gold and just buy a run to get purps. So saying that purples are for hardcore raiding just gives people more purpose and sellers more purpose to sell runs to the casual. Buy a WoW token and buy a run, ezpz. Taking away purps doesn't mean insta back to guild raiding guys! huhuhuhu
08/05/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Stonebrae
agree with you. Maybe they can come up with a new quality of loot for dungeons/LFR. Make it pink and call it something different


Wait. So the border color of the loot icon is the issue you have?
If you hate it that much why are you doing them in the first place? Just don't do lfr and let the people who enjoy lfr play the game how they want to? It's their money let them do what they want with it lol it seems like the people who do lfr are happy enough with it, if you're not then don't do it. Ez pz
You aren't bold. You're stupid.
Color of gear hasn't really meant much since WotLK, or maybe even TBC. Also, LFR is it's own line of progression. Players shouldn't be punished for playing the game in a way you don't approve of.


And that is the problem. Gear quality should matter again. Otherwise what is the point of it? And I'm a LFR raider. I don't disapprove of LFR at all. I'm just saying that LFR should be equal to dungeons. It doesn't need to be it's own tier of progression, as it was intended to just be a way to see the story if you couldn't hardcore raid.

They won't be punished, they just won't be rewarded better gear than they can get from just doing dungeons. The gear you get from dungeons is more than enough to start normal mode raiding, so why do we need another tier inbetween? Just make dungeons and LFR equal so it's not necessary to have two separate tiers.

It doesn't solve anything. They tried making LFR less rewarding during WoD and immediately went back to regular rewards in Legion. Further, LFR stands for Looking for Raid. You can babble all you want about how it doesn't count as "true" raiding, but that's just a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy in place of a real argument.


Never said it wasn't true raiding. Just saying we don't need another tier between dungeons and normal raiding. Keep LFR as the casual raiding spot, that's fine. But just keep it equal with dungeon loot. This way it cuts down on the multiple difficulties of raiding that we already have (LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic). We don't need that many tiers. Putting LFR with dungeon tier will solve that issue, and ease the mind of the hardcore raiders at the same time with their disputes about LFR.
I love all the special snowflakes that want to be more special by taking things away from other players. Please, just stop this garbage. You are not special. Your $15 a month is not better than Skippy's $15 a month. Taking things away from others does not make you a better player, it makes you a worse person.

Or better yet, if you really want to be all-exclusive on raiding content maybe you should start your own game studio, release your own MMO, add raids to it that only a fraction of the players can and want to engage in, then see how long you last.
08/05/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Leonerd
08/05/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Siyara
Here's the most important quote of all:

"If not for the group finder tool (LFR), raid would have been phased out (NO MORE RAIDS) due to the excessive production budget. We couldn't justify spending that much money for content that only 7% of the playerbase was consuming."

-Ion Hazzikostas, in an interview.

No LFR, no raids in ANY difficulty.


I like how most people just ignore this from page 1.


It's largely taken out of context too.

08/05/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Grep
Your $15 a month is not better than Skippy's $15 a month.


The subscription fee entitles you to a functional login button and that's it. It does not entitle you to raid, it does not entitle you to gear, or to max level or to anything other than the fact that when you press play on the battle.net launcher it puts you in the character selection screen.

That's. It.
08/05/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Varlth
08/05/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Snowfox
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Let's be clear.

It's NOT the high-end mythic 0.1% progression raiders that complain about LFR.

It's the scrubby low-end wannabee elitists who do.


Personally I don't agree with the design model to be honest, and I've been raiding some level of mythic content for a good long time. I also don't like the mentality of raid or die and that's exactly what LFR helps promote since with raiding being the source for the best gear in the game if you just have to raid to get the best gear it makes other content look pointless for gear progression.

I also just kind of say whatever at this point provided Blizzard can simultaneously produce good raid content and good world content (which I would say they did in Legion). What I think most people don't recognize is that the current design model is largely liked by Blizzard because it's easier to deal with duplicating a raid four times than creating unique content over and over and over. That's why mage tower challenges aren't spec specific like they would have been in a perfect world and why class mount questlines were pretty much entirely using up content that already existed.

But if I had things my way (cue the "It's not your game" crap) then I'd say creating a game with a raiding floor and good world and dungeon content to be consumed would be the way to go. Suramar was a great step in that direction where we had a legit 110 only zone to work in.


in WoD you could do 1 timewalking dungeon and if you waited a bit get gear the same ilevel from that than you did from the last tier of lfr. they lowered it this expansion. but legit full set of 675? gear from doing that dungeon.

people should complain about stuff like that and not about lfr.

you legit have to participate over a long while to get anything meaningful. there was a guy in the last one i did that legit died at the very start and people kicked him while the fight was going on. because he was a "leech" according to the group.
08/05/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Vestalla
Color of gear hasn't really meant much since WotLK, or maybe even TBC. Also, LFR is it's own line of progression. Players shouldn't be punished for playing the game in a way you don't approve of.

And that is the problem. Gear quality should matter again. Otherwise what is the point of it? And I'm a LFR raider. I don't disapprove of LFR at all. I'm just saying that LFR should be equal to dungeons. It doesn't need to be it's own tier of progression, as it was intended to just be a way to see the story if you couldn't hardcore raid.


Agreed. I think they should have given those who do Heroic/Normal raids and Mythics a different color. The orange used for legendaries should have been the color for those Elite players.

I mean again I'm for LFR with changes. Just give the distinction to those that have the talent to go a step above.
08/05/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Leonerd
08/05/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Siyara
Here's the most important quote of all:

"If not for the group finder tool (LFR), raid would have been phased out (NO MORE RAIDS) due to the excessive production budget. We couldn't justify spending that much money for content that only 7% of the playerbase was consuming."

-Ion Hazzikostas, in an interview.

No LFR, no raids in ANY difficulty.


I like how most people just ignore this from page 1.


While I support LFR, that statistic is simply not true anymore. Due to flex, premade group finder, multiple difficulties and the stigma of raiding going away, people now are raiding more then ever. Again I’m not against LFR, but that quote is also disingenuous. (We also know by now that Ion has a tendency to be disingenuous to placate the playerbase)
For those that do LFR, the only thing that would entice people to do Normal is if they can queue for it, get a wing done in 20-30 minutes and get a couple pieces of gear. At this point, Normal is actually LFR. So if a tier needs to go then Normal should go.
08/05/2018 12:59 PMPosted by Searik
08/05/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Leonerd
...

I like how most people just ignore this from page 1.


While I support LFR, that statistic is simply not true anymore. Due to flex, premade group finder, multiple difficulties and the stigma of raiding going away, people now are raiding more then ever. Again I’m not against LFR, but that quote is also disingenuous. (We also know by now that Ion has a tendency to be disingenuous to placate the playerbase)


That's a very good point. There are many ways to make raiding more accessible these days.

It's really a question of whether the person has time or not to dedicate to actually progressing.
08/05/2018 01:03 PMPosted by Mushin
<span class="truncated">...</span>

While I support LFR, that statistic is simply not true anymore. Due to flex, premade group finder, multiple difficulties and the stigma of raiding going away, people now are raiding more then ever. Again I’m not against LFR, but that quote is also disingenuous. (We also know by now that Ion has a tendency to be disingenuous to placate the playerbase)


That's a very good point. There are many ways to make raiding more accessible these days.

It's really a question of whether the person has time or not to dedicate to actually progressing.


The quote came back all the way during T14 release if memory serves. Back when Blizzard had just drastically raised the raiding floor in Cata from something a good portion of the playerbase could see (in WoTLK through 10 man or maybe even 25 man normal) to something only dedicated players could progress through regardless of size or difficulty.

LFR is by no means a necessity to keep raiding alive, but people still cling to a ~6 year old quote as if its still valid. It's true that Blizzard still obviously seems a purpose for LFR (or at best/worst just haven't decided on if they want to remove it), but it's not still around because it's needed to justify creating raid content.
Go away. Shoo.
No... lets get rid of mythic and the egotists with it.

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